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The Ultimate DooMer
(former) /newstuff Chronicler


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TimeOfDeath said:
darkdave's maps are harder. Plus, having that title is dumb, since anyone can just make hard maps that are literally impossible.


hard != impossible, or we'd all be calling nuts.wad etc. the hardest ever.
Old Post 03-17-10 02:24 #
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Bloodite Krypto
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The resonating silence prompts me to ask the man himself, any information you can share on the progress of Episode 2? Their shall come a day where the growing anticipation of many a avid fan will be met, and on that day the architectural aestheics combined with the ludicrous difficulty will blow my mind away, standing proud as an iconic monument of your ingenious design.

Was MAP08 created with the grid turned off? Observing it within DB the walls have a remarkable 3D look to them which would otherwise be difficult to pull off with the squares limiting your creativity.

Secondly MAP09 is undoubtedly one of the largest I've seen in terms of architectural scale. Mainly due to the replication of those charcoaled pillars, however is the amount of torchs placed within one large FOV the significant factor contributing to a loss in performance on lower end systems? Would removing a substantial amount combined with the pillars make the map more friendly?

I'm still gobsmacked at GZDoom which renders 09 and 10 literally unplayable merely due to my weak processor but every other system resource is reasonably high end. GLBoom+ on the otherhand never fails to impress, making 09 and 10 a breeze in comparison, the framerate dips ever so slightly and even then it only occurs at intervals where you face the breadth of the map.
Old Post 03-22-10 22:08 #
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Quasar
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Bloodite Krypto said:
Secondly MAP09 is undoubtedly one of the largest I've seen in terms of architectural scale. Mainly due to the replication of those charcoaled pillars, however is the amount of torchs placed within one large FOV the significant factor contributing to a loss in performance on lower end systems? Would removing a substantial amount combined with the pillars make the map more friendly?

I can only speak for EE, which is totally different than the ports you mentioned due to being software and all, but what usually kills our framerate are 2S textures with too many holes in them, like those grates used on "The Cage." Basically every hole creates another primitive that has to be drawn, so in the same amount of space that a 1S texture might draw 128 columns, you are drawing something more akin to 512 or 1024 columns.
Old Post 03-22-10 23:48 #
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Solarn
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I don't mean to be pushy, but how are you progressing (if at all) with the new map?
Old Post 04-10-10 12:18 #
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Insane_Gazebo
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Progress has been extremely slow lately. Mostly due to studies.
However, I am on holidays now and progress is once again being made.

Map progress:

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/73...dermap12map.jpg

Screenshot:

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/...undermap122.jpg
(Hmm. Think I'll add a frame to that doorway.)

Another screeny:

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/...undermap123.jpg

So far, the map is playing a lot like Dreaming Garden and Grinder. It's very difficult, and space for the player to move is at a premium. I still haven't decided on a title just yet.
Old Post 04-10-10 14:31 #
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Solarn
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Looks awesome, very reminiscent of Hollow Icon with a bit more tech and metal. Also looks gigantic. Please don't make it break the engine again.
Old Post 04-10-10 20:13 #
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Ribo Zurai
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The WAD is pure art. The archteture, the style, the ambient, everything sounds like an masterpiece. But this level, looks one of the best. I just can't imagine the number of monster that it will have... That huge room in the left side could say it's going to be one of the hardest maps, isn't it?
Old Post 04-10-10 21:25 #
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Bloodite Krypto
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Awesome to see an update at last :D

The layout appears to resemble a hive with several adjoining paths, retaining the claustrophobia of Grinder and the theme of Hollow Icon. Beautiful, simple but gripping just like the music selection. I anticipate the item placement to be intensely balanced, i.e: Your expected to take little damage as health is found in scarce amounts.

Am I correct to assume the following episode is only compatible with ZDoom for the time being due to a limit on the number of linedefs in BOOM?
Old Post 04-10-10 22:29 #
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Insane_Gazebo
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Bloodite Krypto said:
Was MAP08 created with the grid turned off?


No, it wasn't. If you adjust your grid accordingly, all the lines should line up at forty five degrees from one another. If some bits in the center of the map don't seem to line up correctly, that's because that entire central room was a copy-paste from an earlier map, and it didn't quite paste correctly. A mistake I didn't realise until the map was more or less complete.
Old Post 04-11-10 02:56 #
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Kyka
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The tiled floor texture looks really good. Well it all looks really good, but I especially like that tiled floor.

Great to see new progress in this mapset.
Old Post 04-11-10 09:09 #
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Bloodite Krypto
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To my utter astonishment, after taking a thorough look at my graphic card's settings interface and making a few interesting adjustments MAP's 09 and 10 run flawlessly in GLBOOM+ with NO framerate drop at all! And I'm not even boasting a dual core processor. This is simply outstanding, a true testament of the efficiency of GLBoom+ on lower end systems. Unfortunately this only boils my blood, making me even more infuriated and downright appauled at GZDoom, no argument can hope to alter my perception of it being atrociously repugnant (where efficiency is concerned ofcourse). In comparison it can't run 09 and 10 at all, the framerate plumets catastrophically, 11 is literally unplayable, it slowed to a crawl upon firing, all I can say for the time being is bloody hell that's one hell of a jump in the monster count in comparison to the earlier maps.

Stubbornly attacking the engine is futile perhaps, yet I can't help but laugh at how poor GZDoom compares to GLBoom+. However it highlights an even more urgent matter concerning the future of Sunder, if DB2 isn't upgraded to increase the number of linedefs capable in BOOM I sincerely hope you make future maps compatible with PRBoom+ for the sake of lower end users. In all earnest while the epicly gargantuac architecture of 10 for instance creates a powerful feeling of immersion, I hope you can be persuaded to reduce the scale of the architecture for the sake of players across all engines.
Old Post 04-11-10 20:21 #
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Gez
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Bloodite Krypto said:
if DB2 isn't upgraded to increase the number of linedefs capable in BOOM

Okay, you really don't know what you're talking about. :p No amount of DB2 improvement is going to raise any limit in PrBoom.
Old Post 04-11-10 20:57 #
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Bloodite Krypto
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Your correct I am completely baffled, Gazebo once mentioned the reason for switching to ZDoom yet his point was too vague for me to decipher.

Sadly I've hit the line limit in DB2, so I'm either going to have to wait for a fix or figure out what detail I can safely remove.
Old Post 04-11-10 21:15 #
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Insane_Gazebo
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Bloodite Krypto said:
Your correct I am completely baffled, Gazebo once mentioned the reason for switching to ZDoom yet his point was too vague for me to decipher.



That's okay, this is a little confusing because you're both right to an extent, in this case.

The limit I hit was two-fold.

First of all, Doom Builder 2 has a limit of around 27,000 lines - if you try and add any more, and then attempt to save it, it's going to crash. (This has been fixed in later unofficial builds.)

Secondly, because of the huge size of the map, the only node builder capable of handling the map is ZDBSP, which means it's also currently a ZDoom only map. (Which is annoying, as I wanted these maps to run on as many ports as possible.)

I hope that clears it up :)
Old Post 04-12-10 02:19 #
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Viewtiful-Chris
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I would really like a textfile.

And when is this going to be on /idgames?
Old Post 04-12-10 02:38 #
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Quasar
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Please note that zdoom node format support is still planned for Eternity. I cannot say when it is going in because priorities keep getting jumbled around. But it will be sooner rather than later, I know that much.
Old Post 04-12-10 03:20 #
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entryway
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Insane_Gazebo said:
Secondly, because of the huge size of the map, the only node builder capable of handling the map is ZDBSP

64536+ sidedefs/segs or what? Other limits are actually inaccessible.

I know Eternal had problems with segs limit on Map04 in Hell Ground. Some geometry was removed. Final number of segs is 61456. Map07 contains 43795 sidedefs, but it is far from maximum.

Last edited by entryway on 04-12-10 at 09:51
Old Post 04-12-10 07:40 #
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gggmork
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This older thread discusses how building nodes externally in the command line might be useful for large maps:
http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthr...8819#post678819

I know little about nodes, but some of sunder's larger maps had 'signal 11' errors and wouldn't load in prboomplus or had trouble saving inside doombuilder. Some large maps even had weird errors like rocket splash damage not working right (if that even has anything to do with nodes).
Old Post 04-12-10 08:18 #
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entryway
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Looks like deepbsp has own format of SEGS lump if segs count > 65535 as it has for tall patches.

Segs count == 89916 (if sizeof(mapseg_t) == 12)

segs[0].v1 = 18745
segs[0].v2 = 0
segs[0].angle = 3268
segs[0].linedef = 0
segs[0].side = -32768 (wtf?)
segs[0].offset = 3775

segs[1].v1 = 1
segs[1].v2 = 2
segs[1].angle = 3297
segs[1].linedef = 0
segs[1].side = 18765 (wtf?)
segs[1].offset = 0

What the fuck? All values are shit here.

I think sizeof(mapseg_t) == 16 here. At least side and offset are correct then.

EDIT:
mapsubsector_t::firstseg is also an 'unsigned int' in deepbsp nodes in case of segs count > 65535

Last edited by entryway on 04-12-10 at 10:33
Old Post 04-12-10 10:05 #
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Insane_Gazebo
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Viewtiful-Chris said:
I would really like a textfile.

And when is this going to be on /idgames?


Textfile will come once Episode 2 is finished I reckon. Which is... a long way off at this point, but hey :)

I reckon I'll upload it to the archives then too.

entryway said:

64536+ sidedefs/segs or what? Other limits are actually inaccessible.

I know Eternal had problems with segs limit on Map04 in Hell Ground. Some geometry was removed. Final number of segs is 61456. Map07 contains 43795 sidedefs, but it is far from maximum.


To be perfectly honest I have very little understanding as to why only ZDBSP is the only nodebuilder which can build the nodes without crashing.

Of course, the map isn't quite finished, as there is a few tiny bits of detail and doors etc. that I need to put in, as well as quite a lot more monsters. So I figure I'll wait until after the official DB2 update, finish the map, and then try and sort out the node problem. I can send you a copy of the wad if you like. (You obviously know a lot more about this than me.)
Old Post 04-12-10 12:36 #
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entryway
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Insane_Gazebo said:
To be perfectly honest I have very little understanding as to why only ZDBSP is the only nodebuilder which can build the nodes without crashing.

Did you try deepbsp? Send me the wad.
Old Post 04-12-10 12:50 #
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Insane_Gazebo
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entryway said:

Did you try deepbsp? Send me the wad.


No, I don't believe I did try deepbsp. If I recall correctly, I was never able to get it working.

(Check your PM's for the WAD.)
Old Post 04-12-10 13:13 #
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entryway
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Insane_Gazebo said:
(Check your PM's for the WAD.)

Ah, ok. 65526 sidefs and ~80k segs.

I still can't understand how to load deepbsp nodes for big levels. I think I can load subsectors and segs correctly, but can't load nodes.

GZDoom does not load these nodes.

Last edited by entryway on 04-12-10 at 13:40
Old Post 04-12-10 13:26 #
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Insane_Gazebo
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entryway said:

Ah, ok. 65526 sidefs and ~80k segs.

I still can't understand how to load deepbsp nodes for big levels. I think I can load subsectors and segs correctly, but can't load nodes.

GZDoom does not load these nodes.


I just checked out the map in GZDoom then, and it worked fine on my machine. Not sure what's happening there.

As for Deepbsp, I believe that was the problem I was having too. Oh, 80k segs? Wow. I didn't realise it was that high. (And to think I need to add more in, fuck.)
Old Post 04-12-10 14:05 #
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entryway
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Insane_Gazebo said:
I just checked out the map in GZDoom then, and it worked fine on my machine. Not sure what's happening there.

gzdoom rebuilds them
Old Post 04-12-10 14:11 #
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Quasar
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Once you get to 65535 sides, that's that. You simply cannot go any higher in the DOOM map format, even with ZDoom nodes. You would have to change up to UDMF, which is currently only supported by ZDoom (it's on the map for EE, but I have still have a lot of work to do to make it happen).
Old Post 04-12-10 16:56 #
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Insane_Gazebo
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entryway said:

gzdoom rebuilds them


I'm confused. Why is it failing to build them on one machine, and not another?

Also, Map12 is finished and ready for testing. If you've tested my maps in the past, check your PM's.
Old Post 04-14-10 11:48 #
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Solarn
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Insane_Gazebo said:


I'm confused. Why is it failing to build them on one machine, and not another?

Also, Map12 is finished and ready for testing. If you've tested my maps in the past, check your PM's.

Yay, awesomeness!
Old Post 04-14-10 18:18 #
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esselfortium
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Quasar said:
Once you get to 65535 sides, that's that. You simply cannot go any higher in the DOOM map format, even with ZDoom nodes. You would have to change up to UDMF, which is currently only supported by ZDoom (it's on the map for EE, but I have still have a lot of work to do to make it happen).

Well, there actually is a hacky workaround to extend this limit a bit, too. And thankfully it's one that doesn't require any work to be done on the sourceport's end: sidedefs compression (i.e. making any completely identical sidedefs reference each other instead of having duplicates). Doom Builder 2 will automatically compress sidedefs when saving if the map exceeds 65535 of them. Of course, that means it'll likely take much longer than usual to save, but the map will continue to be workable for a while longer.

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Old Post 04-14-10 18:26 #
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Quasar
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esselfortium said:

Well, there actually is a hacky workaround to extend this limit a bit, too. And thankfully it's one that doesn't require any work to be done on the sourceport's end: sidedefs compression (i.e. making any completely identical sidedefs reference each other instead of having duplicates). Doom Builder 2 will automatically compress sidedefs when saving if the map exceeds 65535 of them. Of course, that means it'll likely take much longer than usual to save, but the map will continue to be workable for a while longer.

Right but there are limits to that as well, as you say. There have to be enough sides in your map that have identical properties for it to succeed. For example if before compression you are 10000 over the limit, you may not have much luck :P

IIRC it is also only safe to apply to maps which are not subject to any sort of scripting or other runtime texture change effects. Those aren't possible in vanilla DOOM, BOOM, or Heretic, but would impact maps made for Hexen, Strife, or most modern ports :>
Old Post 04-14-10 19:15 #
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