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Is this a good idea?
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Capellan
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Re: 95 vs 94. Cool. Now to see if I can dig up some of my own really early maps. Might be fun to rework them into something not-so-horrible :)

Another thought (which may already have been considered): it would probably be a good idea to include a compilation of the original wads in the release, so thst people who are interested can compare the two.

i.e. "1994new.wad" has all the modified levels, and "1994old.wad" has the original levels, in the same order.

The only real issue with the above would be wads with non-Doom textures, but these could always be includes in the "old" wad, even if they aren't in the new?

If making the "old" wad sounds like too much work, we should at least include a list of direct links for people who want to go look at the originals.

Old Post 06-30-09 00:23 #
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Snarboo
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Capellan said:
Another thought (which may already have been considered): it would probably be a good idea to include a compilation of the original wads in the release, so thst people who are interested can compare the two.

i.e. "1994new.wad" has all the modified levels, and "1994old.wad" has the original levels, in the same order.

That was an idea I was considering. It might be possible to include a seperate zip file inside the main one with all the original levels and their text files if compiling a megawad is too difficult.

Old Post 06-30-09 00:34 #
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esselfortium
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Snarboo said:
I didn't realize that Boom couldn't do custom skies. Do most ports support MBF features? If not, we can choose 3 themed skies and place maps based on participant preferance.

Yes, support of many MBF features is common in modern Boom ports. As far as I know, PrBoom, PrBoom-Plus, the ZDoom family, and Eternity all support sky transfers.

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Old Post 06-30-09 02:34 #
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maggot202
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here are two shots (of adyacent rooms!), i'm interested in some feedback.

Shot #1:
BEFORE
AFTER

Shot #2:
BEFORE
AFTER

Old Post 06-30-09 04:21 #
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40oz
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Ughh you removed all those stairs :(

I was hoping you'd do something fancy with it.

Old Post 06-30-09 05:30 #
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ArmouredBlood
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JohnnyRancid said:
Ughh you removed all those stairs :(

I was hoping you'd do something fancy with it.



I was seeing some cage midtexts on the ceiling with some cacodemons coming out the sides when you went for the armor =/

Nice job on the first one though.

Also JohnnyR, your comments on how bad element was discouraged me, felt like I had a lot of stuff to do on it, especially cause I thought the basic idea of the map wasn't bad >.<

Old Post 06-30-09 05:44 #
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maggot202
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ArmouredBlood said:


I was seeing some cage midtexts on the ceiling with some cacodemons coming out the sides when you went for the armor =/



Well, there are no cacodemons at the moment, but there are 4 spectres teleported when you go for the armor

Old Post 06-30-09 06:08 #
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ArmouredBlood
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Well the cacos floating out of the cages at the top would pretty much only make sense with the stairs. You could leave the deaf box unmarked, put them behind a wall that lowers when a certain stair is crossed, and then you have a nice ninja caco or two. The cage above the armor should give the player the idea SOMETHING is fishy, but they should be thinking that for almost every room anyway ;D

Old Post 06-30-09 06:23 #
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Super Jamie
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Man, you guys are good at this. I am loving all these pictures.

Old Post 06-30-09 07:33 #
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40oz
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My map is almost done. I spent a lot of hours on it. I kinda regret it, but I think I may have it done before the end of this week. My map is long and tedious, and apparently Dominique had done the entire map on a 8x8 grid, making all walls very unpleasing lengths, and ceiling textures near impossible to align correctly. There's lots of mazes and thus there's repetitive architecture. The more I playtest it the more I hate the gameplay. I'm gonna have to remove all the things and do better monster placement. I have 3 more maze hallways to finish, and a couple rooms remaining that I need to detail.

But one thing's for sure, it will be a hell of a lot better than the original :)

Also Good luck to Mr. Freeze and Solarn, the maps you guys picked are kinda lousy too, I look forward to seeing what you can do with those.

Last edited by 40oz on 06-30-09 at 08:07

Old Post 06-30-09 07:48 #
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Solarn
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JohnnyRancid said:
My map is almost done. I spent a lot of hours on it. I kinda regret it, but I think I may have it done before the end of this week. My map is long and tedious, and apparently Dominique had done the entire map on a 8x8 grid, making all walls very unpleasing lengths, and ceiling textures near impossible to align correctly. There's lots of mazes and thus there's repetitive architecture. The more I playtest it the more I hate the gameplay. I'm gonna have to remove all the things and do better monster placement. I have 3 more maze hallways to finish, and a couple rooms remaining that I need to detail.

But one thing's for sure, it will be a hell of a lot better than the original :)

Also Good luck to Mr. Freeze and Solarn, the maps you guys picked are kinda lousy too, I look forward to seeing what you can do with those.


I actually think the map I picked has a lot of promise gameplay-wise and the texture choices were pretty good too (except for a few overused wood textures), but the design was just all over the place.

Old Post 06-30-09 08:23 #
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GreyGhost
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Progress report - no earthshattering changes yet, currently going around unpegging and aligning tectures. Undecided about what to do with the outside walls - massive slabs of GREY1 - maybe just lower the light level to 48, it is after all meant to be dark outside. ;-)

Old Post 06-30-09 08:26 #
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ArmouredBlood
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1 AM with class tomorrow ... digging for more ideas from you vets with the screens :P
http://wadhost.fathax.com/files/AB....ELEMENTv2_1.zip

Also got a slight problem with a thing or two, I have a stimpack and an ammo box(?) on a sector in lava shaped like an iron cross, but they aren't there. Little help ...

Old Post 06-30-09 09:12 #
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Super Jamie
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Thing 225 and 186? The appear for me in PrBoom. GZDoom doesn't seem to like the heights in those sectors, and clips the items into the floor.

Old Post 06-30-09 09:25 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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I haven't done much so far, mostly I just touched up the starting area:

Before
After
After (lower translucency value)

I also removed the boxes of bullets and shells, the shotgun and chaingun, and the four green armors. It was pretty ridiculous to put that many supplies in the very beginning of the map, even if you do return to it later. Monster placement needs to be overhauled too, I hate maps where you start out under attack.

Old Post 06-30-09 11:00 #
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Cybershark
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Dragonsbrethren said:
After
After (lower translucency value)


Did I miss something or isn't this Boom format - where you're stuck with the default translucency?

Also I'm finding this project to be very tempting...

Old Post 06-30-09 11:32 #
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Snarboo
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Cybershark said:
Did I miss something or isn't this Boom format - where you're stuck with the default translucency?
If Boom imposes a default translucency which can't be changed, then it needs to be the default. I'm not sure if MBF allows custom translucency, and since I allowed participants to use custom skies, sneaking it in shouldn't be too much of a problem. We'll see.

Edit:
I played the latest version of your map, AmouredBlood, and it's looking good! It could still use a few refinements:

  • I feel the pillars on the star elevator should be rounded in the back instead of just flat. Also, instead of placing one in the center of the elevator wall, try doubling them and moving them to the edges instead. It's possible for the player to get hung on the pillar going in and out. Alternatively, you can widen the elevator wall instead.
  • I love the new marble room near the start with the bloody cracks. One thing I would suggest here is to mark the detail lines as invisible on the minimap. It will look less cluttered that way. This is also good advice in general for details that are not necessary to be seen on Doom's minimap.
  • The new details in the lava room look nice. The crate stack is fine, but instead of the odd star shaped sector, you could try lowering it down into the lava, putting the lava texture on the floor and making the sector self-referencing to create deep water. The doom wiki has an article and example map of this effect so you can practice instead of changing your map right away.
  • In the room where you have to open doors with the hanging dude texture, you might want to change the hanging dudes to a wooden door texture. It looks odd opening a door that doesn't have a door texture, and some players might consider it a mandatory secret.
  • The plasma gun secret in the caco chamber is marked multiple times.
  • The door entering the cistern has the water texture as the floor in front of it.
  • I can still scoot around the edge and grab the yellow key in the cistern. Try marking the edge line as impassable or add a railing.
  • Perhaps the stairs in the center of the cistern should block monsters? The Baron looks weird climbing up them. However, this has no real effect on gameplay.
  • Perhaps the doors for the spider ambush and the yellow key switch should open at the same time instead of one by one? The doors could also be thinner. To make them all open at the same time, you will need to merge the doors as one sector, remove the lines referencing the old doors, and mark a new line to open all the doors. If you merge multiple sectors, they will have to have the same height, ceiling and door textures.
  • The baron ambush at the end is still a little brutal, but only because I rushed in there thinking I could take them. :p


Keep in mind these are only suggestions. If you feel any of my advice would negatively affect your map, you can ignore it. :)

Last edited by Snarboo on 06-30-09 at 15:03

Old Post 06-30-09 14:28 #
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esselfortium
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Boom maps can use different translucency values, but using them isn't really very straightforward. You have to generate a "tranmap" lump, by setting Boom's translucency level to what you want and then running the resulting TRANMAP.DAT file in its folder through a DOS conversion program in the Boom editing utilities package, then importing the resulting file into your wad as a lump. You then specify that tranmap for lines by making an off-map control line with the Translucent Line special, that tranmap as its front-side middle-texture name, and a tag, and then to use that tranmap on translucent lines in your map you just use that tag instead of the translucent line special. It's a weird system but it does work :P

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Old Post 06-30-09 15:32 #
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masayan
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I join in the project and select Ice Nightmare 2

Last edited by masayan on 06-30-09 at 15:40

Old Post 06-30-09 15:34 #
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Snarboo
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esselfortium said:
It's a weird system but it does work :P
That is, but if anyone is willing to do that, more power to them. :)

Old Post 06-30-09 15:38 #
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esselfortium
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Well, the thing is that once you've put the tranmap lumps into your wad for certain opacities, you can then use those tranmap lumps anywhere in any of your maps that you want a translucent line with that opacity level. Really it works better than just using the built-in translucency, I think, because you don't give the player control anymore over how translucent your stuff should be. :P

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Old Post 06-30-09 15:46 #
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lareman
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I have made some progress too!

The starting room was so bland, empty and pointless, that i decided to completely revise it.
Before - After

This room was needless before, as it just had a blue-key door leading to an empty corridor. I decided to add a switch lowering some obstacles
in the starting room. Also the nukage pit was about 1000 units deep,
which was very annoying.
Before - After

I have also made the map much harder than it was. (the biggest you had to fight was a demon)

Old Post 06-30-09 18:21 #
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Kyka
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Some of these screens are looking particularly impressive. I think this will be a lot of fun once it is done. There were a lot of those early maps that played really well, but looked pretty ordinary (at least by modern standards.) So as long as the new maps stay reasonably 'connected' to the originals, they should both play really well and look good too.

Big props Snarboo for coming up with such a cool idea.

Old Post 06-30-09 18:33 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Cybershark said:

Did I miss something or isn't this Boom format - where you're stuck with the default translucency?


Boom allows you to edit the default translucency value (66) through boom.cfg. I was playing with Eternity, which makes it available for editing in the menu (I think PrBoom does too).


esselfortium said:
Well, the thing is that once you've put the tranmap lumps into your wad for certain opacities, you can then use those tranmap lumps anywhere in any of your maps that you want a translucent line with that opacity level. Really it works better than just using the built-in translucency, I think, because you don't give the player control anymore over how translucent your stuff should be. :P

Interesting. I might just have to do this, the default translucency makes it nearly impossible to see any details through the windows unless you're right up against them.

Old Post 06-30-09 22:20 #
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40oz
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I'm pretty close to done as far as detailing goes, I have to redo the exit room and there's another room I haven't touched yet. It doesn't have any monsters, but I need someone to test the map layout-wise. There are a lot of mazes and I need to know where the player will get lost and make some sort of guide to get them to where they need to go. Currently there are no monsters in it. Someone wanna test it for me?

Old Post 07-01-09 00:45 #
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ArmouredBlood
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I'll check it out, but you'll probably want a few more people in case one or two miss something.

Also did a crapload more stuff off your suggestions snarboo. If you wanna check it out here it is.

I'm somewhat hesitant about the ammo if you don't pick up the plasma gun as it's possible to hit the room with the cacos first and find only the berserk pack, which is why there were two secrets there.

Old Post 07-01-09 01:22 #
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Pavera
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JohnnyRancid said:
My map is almost done. I spent a lot of hours on it. I kinda regret it, but I think I may have it done before the end of this week. My map is long and tedious, and apparently Dominique had done the entire map on a 8x8 grid, making all walls very unpleasing lengths, and ceiling textures near impossible to align correctly. There's lots of mazes and thus there's repetitive architecture. The more I playtest it the more I hate the gameplay. I'm gonna have to remove all the things and do better monster placement. I have 3 more maze hallways to finish, and a couple rooms remaining that I need to detail.

But one thing's for sure, it will be a hell of a lot better than the original :)

Also Good luck to Mr. Freeze and Solarn, the maps you guys picked are kinda lousy too, I look forward to seeing what you can do with those.



That's much like mine, I guess since I'm doing the same author. Some teleporters seemed to be misaligned on purpose, cause they were placed in open areas..

Oh the mysteries of the past.

Old Post 07-01-09 01:24 #
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traversd
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I copied and old CD of levels pre-1995 and found this. Quite a small map but tbh I don't think I'd be able to finish one of the bigger maps. Melange is a good size too but I wont double up unless I finish this one first.

http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=189

So far I've redone the start and 2nd areas.

-t

Old Post 07-01-09 04:01 #
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Pavera
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ArmouredBlood said:
I'll check it out, but you'll probably want a few more people in case one or two miss something.

Also did a crapload more stuff off your suggestions snarboo. If you wanna check it out here it is.

I'm somewhat hesitant about the ammo if you don't pick up the plasma gun as it's possible to hit the room with the cacos first and find only the berserk pack, which is why there were two secrets there.



Dunno if this happens to you but I found some nasty slime trails in that map. I haven't looked at the original map yet, so I'm not sure if you caused that or not, but you might wanna have a look at those sectors? Otherwise, I'm liking some of your ideas. I particularly thought that room with the runic inscriptions in the ground was pretty neat looking.

Old Post 07-01-09 04:45 #
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40oz
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A tip for anyone who has giant mazes in their map:

There were plenty of mazes in my map. In addition to that all the monsters detected the player from the start, and the mapper used block monster lines to keep them where she wanted them. The result was having monsters poke out of corners and snipe you from varying angles, and the maze was almost impossible to find the ending.

Effective thing placement is crucial! I deleted all the monsters and wanted to place them all myself. I found that deaf weaker monsters in key places in the mazes made all the difference. Upon playtesting, I found that naturally I tend to go in the direction of a monster I just killed. I guess I am trying to find more monsters, and 99% of the time there are more monsters behind already living ones. Placing monsters leading into the direction you want the player to go is very important in guiding toward the exit. Even more effective is using zombies that drop items. Particularly where that zombie dies, the player will be in sight of another monster that is placed closer toward the exit as he is going to pick up it's dropped item. Also things like puddles of blood and floor candles do a good job leading the player into the direction he needs to go in. Make sure you do this, as many 1994 mappers didn't bother with this, and your maze will be much more enjoyable and less 94'ish in the end.

Old Post 07-01-09 05:06 #
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