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Solarn
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Nixot said:
The nukage thing is about 4 pixels below the wall - it's supposed to be a really deep nukage river. :P

I used a cheapo self referencing trick so you can go in it too.


That actually sounds neat.

Old Post 07-07-09 19:29 #
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Nixot
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Thanks for all your help. I'm getting along really well. I've taken all of your suggestions into consideration. Here are some screenshots to show you how I'm getting along:

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/3425/doom00.png
I have added some new structures and additional detail to the levels.

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1571/doom01.png
Logical lighting YAY! It looks quite the bit better now.

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1391/doom02.png
This is why I kept the SPCDOOR tall. Also, this picture is taken from within the nukage river to display the deep awesomeness.

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/900/doom03.png
This is a supreme version of the computer room. The lights are recessed, and the area directly below the lights is at 255 brightness. The bits at the edges are at a lower brightness.

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1230/doom04.png
This is a new room, showing a flowing nukage area at the top and a nukage river under a grate. This isn't the greatest view, but it shows enough.

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/7452/doom05.png
This is the result of not being able to make self-referencing sectors work properly with variable ceiling heights. This nukage holder is empty and there are small puddles of nukage around, like an empty cup which just had water in it.

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/8836/doom06.png
This is the dull room, now correctly autoaligned and adjusted with proper floor tiles.

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/7483/doom07.png
I fixed the aligning of STARBR2 in this area and it definitely looks much nicer.

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1774/doom08.png
Another view of the same.

This is basically all there is for now. I will follow your next suggestions to see how I could improve. Your feedback is valuable to me and I thank everyone who has contributed so far.

Also, here's a map:
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/7773/mapd.png

Last edited by Nixot on 07-11-09 at 20:24

Old Post 07-11-09 19:06 #
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maggot202
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Awesome, dude! It seems all there is left is to actually place some enemies. I'm looking forward playing this map.

Old Post 07-11-09 21:16 #
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Solarn
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Second screenshot: The BROWN1 texture next to the door is misaligned vertically with the rest of the wall.

Otherwise, I can only say that it looks great. I especially love the nukage areas.

Old Post 07-11-09 22:07 #
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Nixot
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I think that's just screenshot dodginess, rather than a genuine misalignment. I checked and everything is right, and the texture is indeed upper unpegged.

Old Post 07-11-09 23:04 #
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Solarn
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Nixot said:
I think that's just screenshot dodginess, rather than a genuine misalignment. I checked and everything is right, and the texture is indeed upper unpegged.

Unpegging doesn't solve every issue. I'm not completely certain of how Doom Builder handles textures, sometimes they align if they're unpegged even with height differences and sometimes they don't, but it this case they didn't. I circled the area in question to make it more obvious.

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/1571/doom01.png

Old Post 07-11-09 23:29 #
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Super Jamie
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You're getting better. I like the angular steps around the doors, and the lighting in that shot Solarn posted is simple but attractive.

Where did you get the wallpatch for the nukage river in this shot? I am in need of a similar thing, but blue water.

Old Post 07-12-09 02:38 #
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Nixot
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OOOOPS! That part! I thought he meant the hangy-over bit above the door!

Also, the nukage river wall patch is simply the NUKAGE1..3 floors turned into patches. Nothing fancy at all. :P

I'm starting to add monsters now. This is the bit that I'm worst at. The difficulty settings are currently quite different in some areas and barely noticeable in others.

I also added a trap - when you collect the red keycard, secret doors open everywhere and monsters pour out!

Old Post 07-12-09 14:54 #
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Nixot
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The map has been finished! Thanks to everyone for their support. Please tell me what you think.

http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/?id=15802

Old Post 07-16-09 10:33 #
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Super Jamie
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Your rooms are too small, it's really quite difficult to dodge and move around to get to the weapons and ammo.

Weapon and ammo placement is generally poor. Shooting demons with the pistol is boring. There's no point running the player out of ammo then putting heaps of bullets in an alcove behind a fat cacodemon with an Archvile in a monster closet behind you, nor any point putting the SSG behind the Archie. Give the player a chance based on skill, not where the pseudorandom number generator decides the monster will run.

You seem to have focused on detailing the floors and forgotten the walls. Tiles and grates but entire bare rooms with an item in them? Don't just leave the key in the corner of the Baron closet, stick it in an alcove with some lighting, make it seem important. It's supposed to be a reward for a battle, not just an afterthought that was left lying around.

Also, self-referencing slime seems weird when I can sink down in it, but monsters can't.

I again repeat that as a beginning mapper, you should put your maps up here for gameplay and design testing, rather than waste space with another mediocre (or worse) map on idgames. Do you want to actually improve or just get crap reviews?

Old Post 07-16-09 23:47 #
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arrrgh
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About the deep slime thing, if you're fine with using Boom you can use it's deep water feauture which works a lot better.

Old Post 07-17-09 04:02 #
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Pavera
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I think the finite detailing on the floor looks kind of weird next to the ultimately empty/bland rooms. Focus less on cutting hexagon tiles out of the ground and more on making an engaging environment.

Old Post 07-17-09 04:26 #
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Super Jamie
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Hexagon tiles are the new illusio-pit.

Old Post 07-17-09 04:30 #
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Kyka
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Nixot said:


http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/1230/doom04.png
This is a new room, showing a flowing nukage area at the top and a nukage river under a grate. This isn't the greatest view, but it shows enough.





I would change the floor in this screenie. The oval shapes don't fit very well. I think a brown/tan floor would probably look better, but that is personal choice.

Getting better though. Nice. I haven't played the map yet, will get onto it soon.

Old Post 07-17-09 04:44 #
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Jodwin
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Super Jamie said:
rather than waste space with another mediocre (or worse) map on idgames.

Ehh, as long as your maps are "finished", there's nothing wrong with uploading them regardless of how good or bad they are. Idgames is an archive after all, if the purpose was to be a storage for only good stuff it should be purged of over 90 % of content. Instead, it allows everyone to upload their works for archiving purposes (plus sharing it with others), and sometimes it becomes useful too to have worse maps in there (see the current 1994-project).

As long as you don't get your panties in a knot for possibly nasty reviews, there's nothing wrong with uploading worse maps.


(of course, utter shit could be considered an exception (see Terry), but those are good for lulz, so no harm done, really)

Old Post 07-17-09 07:53 #
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Super Jamie
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I guess I'm just saying this map had potential, but falls short with some simple things that anyone here would have picked up on a first playtest. This could have been a good release, rather than just another example of someone's learning path.

Old Post 07-17-09 08:34 #
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Ixnatifual
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Was decent to play through. I played on HMP and found there was enough ammo to deal with the baddies. However to echo some of the criticism, the areas are too tight, making it difficult to move around to avoid shots. I finished with just 9 health. The medikit mid-way was a welcome sight, but those Hell Knights firing into the cramped hallways very nearly did me in. I also felt there was too much switch-pushing, although due to the linearity and size of the map it was no trouble finding out the consequence of flipping the switches, and I didn't feel like I was being made to run across the same areas endlessly for the amusement of the author.

Architecture generally looks alright. It's not too detailed, but the detail there is generally used in a tasteful manner. I didn't manage to find many secrets, but then I didn't really spend time searching for them as I was always busy taking care of the next baddie.

Overall I thought it was short but enjoyable. As you seem to take criticism well, I expect to see increasingly good maps from you. If I were to make a request, it would be that your next map be larger in scope, with less cramped areas and at least one occasion where the player has a choice to the order in which he visits two areas just to break up the linearity a bit.

Last edited by Ixnatifual on 07-17-09 at 09:16

Old Post 07-17-09 09:07 #
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Nixot
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Thanks for your feedback. I decided to break it down into parts.

Super Jamie: "Your rooms are too small, it's really quite difficult to dodge and move around to get to the weapons and ammo."

This really pisses me orff. Somehow, I always manage to end up with rooms either A) tiny or B) horrendously big. What do you think is a good room size (in map pixels)?

"Weapon and ammo placement is generally poor. Shooting demons with the pistol is boring. There's no point running the player out of ammo then putting heaps of bullets in an alcove behind a fat cacodemon with an Archvile in a monster closet behind you, nor any point putting the SSG behind the Archie. Give the player a chance based on skill, not where the pseudorandom number generator decides the monster will run."

Aww, you played in UV didn't you? I had to try about 20 times before I got it. Next time I will focus on bigger rooms and less cacodemons and more supplies. I will make the room with the cacodemons bigger to make it sort of an arena battle.

"You seem to have focused on detailing the floors and forgotten the walls. Tiles and grates but entire bare rooms with an item in them? Don't just leave the key in the corner of the Baron closet, stick it in an alcove with some lighting, make it seem important. It's supposed to be a reward for a battle, not just an afterthought that was left lying around."

OK, how about a room with a raised bit with the key on? And lights coming from it? I really don't want to overdo it.

"Also, self-referencing slime seems weird when I can sink down in it, but monsters can't."

WHAT! Grrrr! I might have to take that out! I knew items don't clip with it, but monsters?!

"I again repeat that as a beginning mapper, you should put your maps up here for gameplay and design testing, rather than waste space with another mediocre (or worse) map on idgames. Do you want to actually improve or just get crap reviews?"

Hey, it's not a waste of space. What about all the other beginning maps? I read the reviews on there and will gladly upload the next one to here, rather than at /idgames, to make it even better. In fact, I got some pretty good reviews (along with the crap ones).

arrrgh: "About the deep slime thing, if you're fine with using Boom you can use it's deep water feauture which works a lot better."

Hmm, I wanted to make it Vanilla compatible.

Krispavera: "I think the finite detailing on the floor looks kind of weird next to the ultimately empty/bland rooms. Focus less on cutting hexagon tiles out of the ground and more on making an engaging environment."

That's a good idea, missing tiles is alright, but looking around on my map again I see blandness and emptiness. There needs to be supports, nukage poury bits and more sparkly bits to look at.

Super Jamie: "Hexagon tiles are the new illusio-pit."

-.- Very funny. No really, I did laugh at that. At least there isn't a wicked HOM and a cyberdemon inside.

Kyka: "I would change the floor in this screenie. The oval shapes don't fit very well. I think a brown/tan floor would probably look better, but that is personal choice."

I quite like that floor, but maybe I should switch to something a little less choppy. Or not. I'll think over that one.

Jodwin: "As long as you don't get your panties in a knot for possibly nasty reviews, there's nothing wrong with uploading worse maps."

I always accept constructive criticism, I ignore the reviews that say "OMG THIS SUX DELETE!!!!11!11!1111111!1!1!111!111oneone"

Super Jamie: "I guess I'm just saying this map had potential, but falls short with some simple things that anyone here would have picked up on a first playtest. This could have been a good release, rather than just another example of someone's learning path."

But it is my learning path, that's the point. Do you mean I should upload a link here next time?

Ixnatifual: "Was decent to play through. I played on HMP and found there was enough ammo to deal with the baddies. However to echo some of the criticism, the areas are too tight, making it difficult to move around to avoid shots. I finished with just 9 health."

9?! On HMP! I thought HMP was a breeze and UV was insanely hard... Maybe it was because I knew the map. Ah well. Those areas are definitely way too small.

"The medikit mid-way was a welcome sight, but those Hell Knights firing into the cramped hallways very nearly did me in."

Heh, I had many problems with them too.

"I also felt there was too much switch-pushing, although due to the linearity and size of the map it was no trouble finding out the consequence of flipping the switches, and I didn't feel like I was being made to run across the same areas endlessly for the amusement of the author."

I wouldn't do that! I always make my switches open doors audible from your position!

"Architecture generally looks alright. It's not too detailed, but the detail there is generally used in a tasteful manner. I didn't manage to find many secrets, but then I didn't really spend time searching for them as I was always busy taking care of the next baddie."

Hmm, you think? Looking back, some walls are ultimately bare. There are two secrets and they are discretely hidden.

"Overall I thought it was short but enjoyable. As you seem to take criticism well, I expect to see increasingly good maps from you."

Of course. My next map is a lot bigger and will have less monsters or more ammo in them.

"If I were to make a request, it would be that your next map be larger in scope, with less cramped areas and at least one occasion where the player has a choice to the order in which he visits two areas just to break up the linearity a bit."

My next map also has many parts to it, with multiple doors to go off in all directions. It doesn't matter, because they all connect up soon.

Now a question: should I fix this map or continue with my next map?

Old Post 07-17-09 11:04 #
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Ixnatifual
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I would "fix it" if I felt like it and go on to the next map if I didn't.

Old Post 07-17-09 12:34 #
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Jodwin
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Nixot said:
Now a question: should I fix this map or continue with my next map?

You could try fixing it, that way you could try to learn why something works on the map and why something else doesn't. That why-part is important, because only then you can start applying the same ideas to later maps where applicable. However, if you do decide to try fixing it, try not to stick on it for too long. Rather than make it your mission to turn it into a masterpiece, when the momentum on fixing seems to die down you should just quit the fixing, play the map and compare it to the original and see what was changed, why it was changed and how it affected the map. And then fire up Doom Builder and continue your next real project with all the new knowledge and skills you had just gathered.

Mapping is like drawing, or painting, or music, or... The more you do it, the more new things and tricks you will learn and pick up, but you'll never be completely perfect. It can feel frustrating, but at the same time, looking at all the maps you've done and seeing the progression in them is great.

Old Post 07-17-09 12:35 #
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Super Jamie
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Nixot said:
This really pisses me orff. Somehow, I always manage to end up with rooms either A) tiny or B) horrendously big. What do you think is a good room size (in map pixels)?

It's not so much about "the right formula" but what else goes in the map, or even in the room. Locking the player in a 512x512 square with 2 archviles is totally unfair. Put at 64x64 hollow pillar in the middle and it suddenly becomes an exercise in skillfully dodging at the right moments. The fact that UV took you yourself 20 times to beat is a good indication that there's something wrong.


Aww, you played in UV didn't you? I had to try about 20 times before I got it. Next time I will focus on bigger rooms and less cacodemons and more supplies. I will make the room with the cacodemons bigger to make it sort of an arena battle.


Of course, I usually have my first go on maps in UV, then tone it down if the map proves to be too hard. Bigger dimensions will help, though don't just remove enemies and fill it with supplies, that's so 1994.

Rather, think about the way different players will play (charge ahead, conservatively duck into cover, etc) and spread your ammo evenly. I don't think anyone but a speedrunner who knows the map intimately could have gotten either your two boxes of shells, or those three bulletboxes behind the caco. I'm not bad at Doom, but I'm no Drew DeVore.

To give you a hint, you supply the player with 1x shotgun. That's 8 shells. You then have 5 or 6 Demons which take 2-3 shells each to fell. There's an inequality right there.

The scaling in your first map was pretty much spot on. Rooms and passages were the right size, maybe some rooms could have been ~64 smaller but not much more.


WHAT! Grrrr! I might have to take that out! I knew items don't clip with it, but monsters?!


Things do not clip. Monsters are Things.


Hmm, I wanted to make it Vanilla compatible.


As noble as this is, I don't think anyone really plays full-time with Vanilla anymore. Maybe for speedruns, though Chocolate or PrBoom in -complevel is more likely. Boom is a fairly good standard to adhere to, and everyone's PC has a Boom-compatible port on it.


Do you mean I should upload a link here next time?


Yes.

I'd like to congratulate you for taking so much criticism so well. This map, whilst short and with errors, is an improvement over your first, and you're obviously listening and trying.

As for continuing on, limit yourself in revisions, then move on to the next map. Jodwin's advice is very good.

Old Post 07-17-09 13:13 #
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Pavera
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Like I said (I think) earlier in this thread: I have like 30 shitty maps sitting on my harddrive because they were all steps in me learning how to use the editor, how to implement proper gameplay in spots, how to detail, how to make an effective layout.. etc. You don't have to release every 30 second long map that you create, but instead keep them, play them yourself, refer back to them and use the mistakes you made then as a guide of what not to do on your next effort.

Play your maps over and over. Scrutinize every little nook and cranny and decide what looks and plays good/bad so far and go from there. Get other people to play your maps before they are "FINISHED!" to make sure they are fun. I'd been mapping for 2 years before I released my first (and really, that first wasn't a masterpiece).

Bottom line: Give yourself some time to develop your style and techniques.

With that said, I think you're improving. This is definitely better than "Hell Gate with a lift" or whatever that was called. As silly as they look, the cutouts in the floor and ceiling show that you understand better how the grid works, and you're already starting to get little details like computer screens on the walls down. I say start a new map, remember the mistakes you made in this map, and don't do them again.

P.S. When playtesting your own level, playtest it as if you were another player and not the creator. You get better results that way. Don't be afraid to admit that parts of your map suck and need a redesign.

Old Post 07-17-09 13:52 #
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Super Jamie
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Krispavera said:
P.S. When playtesting your own level, playtest it as if you were another player and not the creator. You get better results that way. Don't be afraid to admit that parts of your map suck and need a redesign.

Playing with a fresh mindset is probably the hardest thing to do. You made the map, you know where all the monsters and goodies are, and probably have a preconceived route which not everyone will take. Even in a linear map there is variation. I don't know if you saw the recent speedmap thread and demos, but TGH found a straferun shortcut in my map and completed it in 20 seconds. I certainly didn't think of that!

Likewise, I've put about 40 hours into a map which I was happy with, though have run out of ideas for the second-last area. I just keep making areas then deleting them. I'll be happy with one in good time.

Old Post 07-17-09 15:03 #
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Pavera
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That's true, it really is hard to playtest a level you know everything about. Which further stresses the importance of having playtesters.

Old Post 07-17-09 15:13 #
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Mr. Freeze
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I had a good amount of fun with the map. You have progressed leagues ahead of Hell Gate with Lift, and this wad shows that you have a bright future if you continue to improve. I even had a legitimate "Oh shit" moment at the SUDDENLY CACODEMONS part.

That being said, I felt that after the initial Baron fight, there was a shortage of health. I finished the level with 8, and I do NOT suck at DooM. Maybe a Medkit or two in the Blue Key room?

Old Post 07-17-09 17:32 #
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Nixot
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I have decided to completely re-do the things and make some rooms bigger. I have got rid of the arch-vile hatch completely.

Old Post 07-17-09 17:39 #
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ArmouredBlood
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I'd like to say that my own line for cramped v decent sized rooms is about 128 square, anything smaller than that and I have to be precise, larger than that and I can move around more. Of course you can dodge a single baron's shots in a 64 hallway, but you often run out of room to fall back if you don't have the SSG or better.


Also you're getting a lot of good advice here. Much better than the map I first posted, but that was more a concept map than straight gameplay.

Old Post 07-17-09 17:59 #
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Nixot
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OK, update. Before I release this one to /idgames, I want you to playtest it and tell me how you think it is compared to the first version. I have completely re-done the thing placement, and made the blue card room bigger. I thought nothing of making the level look sparklier, as I am more concerned with gameplay than bells and whistles, and want it to play well before I make it look good.

Here is the link: http://willhostforfood.com/?Action=...ad&fileid=75501

Also you need a Boom-compatible source port now. I recommend ZDoom.

Last edited by Nixot on 07-17-09 at 20:24

Old Post 07-17-09 19:43 #
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lareman
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Nixot said:
Here is the link: http://willhostforfood.com/files4/7...9953nukproc.wad

10 Good as Gold-Flexible Skulls.mp3 By 7eleven
>>Download<< - 17.48 MB

Seriously - What the fuck?

Old Post 07-17-09 20:00 #
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Nixot
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WHAAAAAT?! OK, link FIXED. I haven't a clue what happened there!

http://willhostforfood.com/?Action=...ad&fileid=75501

Old Post 07-17-09 20:24 #
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