Shai'tan's Luck - Uploaded to /incoming

Tried a area42m5b1 map 9 demo (i thought your update was for map 9 actually and only realized it was for map 5 now). Was gonna do both blue and red max but died on red (cybers + viles can be hard because viles blast you straight up thus making you unable to dodge cyber rockets temporarily). Now that I know a vile warps later a faster route would probably be to skip all the middle stuff and save it for later (was just kinda playing having fun, not going as fast as possible toward the middle/end). I forgot to get the red key the first time..
http://www.sendspace.com/file/sgwn3d

Map05: Not good.

http://www.akinomori.com/stuff/area42.m5.b1.lmp (I do finish the map in there)

OK, I re-balanced a crapload of things and moved the stairs in the crate maze a little. I think I got all the monsters in the demo but I'm not 100% sure. I also f'ed up quite a bit as I'd been testing in skulltag a lot more than boom lately -.- So I think it's ok MAP05 material.

http://wadhost.fathax.com/files/AB.Area42.M5.B2.zip

(I haven't tried the new version yet, it's late and I'm tired so I'll do that tomorrow)

I probably should have elaborated a bit: As previously, the difficulty mostly comes from traps rather than the fights being planned as being challenging (if that's intentional, then ignore this :P). The map layout is pretty bad with plenty of "doorway fighting" (I'm sure you noticed this from my demo, right?) and some nasty cramped fights (the three revenants and those two closet knights in the SSG room), the previous map was overall way better in layout (even though it did have some doorway fighting as well). A lot of the trap triggers are placed such that it's very easy to run into them while you're still going through the previous fights (blue key imps and the dining hall are some good examples).

The lift from the dining hall/library to the red key area should lower with a switch rather than by walking over the line.

And the berserk/computer map secret feels more like a punishment with the two arch-viles. Also, the map is pointless since that's the only secret in the whole map. And wtf is up with those "baron toilets" close to the blue key????

Meh, I didn't really think about the doorway fighting part. Not good ... I'll wait until you have a chance to check out the new version before doing anything drastic to the doors, but I was kind of looking at a more realistic base than the usual rather big rooms of classic doom. I'm getting that's more of a drawback here though, so I might have to change that.

I didn't move the dining hall trigger but the blue key imps is farther in now. I might move the dining hall one down to the bottom of the stairs though, would probably work better. I'll have to think of something else to put in the arch-vile secret.

And that reaction was exactly what I was looking for from the baron toilets :P

ArmouredBlood said:

And that reaction was exactly what I was looking for from the baron toilets :P

(Still haven't tried the new one)
Then at least add a little extra ammo inside the rooms. :P It's a much better choice to just ignore them because killing them is completely pointless, but for those who do want to kill them you could add some shells in the rooms as a consolidation.

More realistic layouts are very difficult in Doom (gameplay-wise), for a lot of reasons. If, in general, you want some realism in your map try to go for something that the players can easily "read" but what still might not be feasible in real life. For example, in a dining room you could have a bigger open space in the middle with the tables and chairs spread along the walls, which should still be easy enough to read as a dining room but it should have enough room to work in Doom.

One cure for doorway fighting is making it impossible in the first place. With the blue key, just add enough sound blocking lines (or make the monsters deaf) that you can't wake them from the hallway, and then prevent the player from running back (bars, a demon or two teleporting, etc).

Yea thanks for the advice there, I'll try to put it to good use. And now I just got a cool idea for the blue key room regarding door fighting, have to check if it'll work. I'm kind of annoyed that since I'm working in boom and have no idea how to get a sound clip to play for a few seconds in that port without going through decorate and monster death frames and stuff it'll be less effective -.-

Back to work I guess.

Okay, I played the tekgren-route on B2. It is much more balanced now, perhaps some fights were slightly too easy (the "dormitory" right before the blue key comes to mind). Still, it's a nice classiccy map right now. The only real problem difficulty wise would be that it might feel a bit disjointed with the previous map09. Of course, with those map numbers you have plenty of space to ramp up the difficulty between these two, so that might not be a problem either. :)

Two things though: In the dormitory, maybe you could add some blue key bars on the sides of those backpack closets? They are very easy to miss, and not everyone would see if they can open walls that don't look like doors. And the last cyberdemon, this time when I walked into the teleport to the exit area the cybie was standing right behind the target teleport. I did beat it, but it was still a nasty random surprise. Maybe you could make it teleport there only after you have got to the exit area?

Heh, it IS only MAP05, although I am only planning 10 maps at most. I've only made two so far so we'll see where each one goes ;D

In the dormitory, maybe you could add some blue key bars on the sides of those backpack closets? They are very easy to miss, and not everyone would see if they can open walls that don't look like doors.

Taken care of.

And the last cyberdemon, this time when I walked into the teleport to the exit area the cybie was standing right behind the target teleport. I did beat it, but it was still a nasty random surprise. Maybe you could make it teleport there only after you have got to the exit area?

Took a probably strange approach to that problem, but it should work pretty well. The only problem is the exit lines could probably be dodged into on the far edge of the trees completely by-passing the cyber before the thing lowers completely, but what's the fun in that?

EDIT: sorry bout not uploading it til now, wanted to make sure it worked right in boom.
http://wadhost.fathax.com/files/AB.Area42.M5.B3.zip

Just noticed that you can get stuck behind some of the tables in the dining hall. :(

Jodwin said:

Just noticed that you can get stuck behind some of the tables in the dining hall. :(

That's only the one under the "TV" screen right? Easy fix, was wondering if I should make the bottom of the "TV" screen impassable anyway, but I think it needs it now. Kind of a rare problem so I'll wait until something else comes up to post a new version.

P.S. What country do you live in, cause it's 2 AM here and going from your posting times it's about midafternoon for you. Doesn't make for good conversation post chains >.<

EDIT: Made that change and then was inspired by the icon of sin thread to do so for my MAP01. Yes it's a bad idea for a techbase wad ... but maybe it'll work? get past that 'first map in a megawad' stage. Although the first maps for scythe 1,2 and Hell revealed 1 and 2 were pretty memorable, but they were great megawads I can only hope my ep can be compared to favorably. ~I know I'm rambling but I spent 2:30 AM -5 AM on this map -.- cut me some slack ... well g'night ppl.

Just had my first go at Map05 - also decided to record a demo while I was at it, just in case I managed to survive :D

And through a lot of blind luck, I did. Not sure if this demo helps you at all, but here it is anyhow:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/qb9iju

Recorded in Zdoom 2.3.1

Tried the crate route once. It badly needs more ammo: After coming back to the starting room with the red key I had only two rockets left, while the other route drowns you in ammo. Also that route makes the cybie fight harder because you'll have the cacos and chaingunners shooting through the windows, and unless you'll explore a bit, you won't get the blue armor either.

ArmouredBlood said:

P.S. What country do you live in, cause it's 2 AM here and going from your posting times it's about midafternoon for you. Doesn't make for good conversation post chains >.<

My profile page says Finland. ;)

@ gazebo: I dled zdoom 2.3.1 for the demo and it seemed to desync, as right after you almost kill a chaingunner you go for the SSG to kill the revenant but the chaingunner is still alive and burns your health while you get hit with a rocket from which you die. I assume that's not what really happened? :P

@ jodwin: Ah yea I didn't really balance the ammo for after taking the red key, I should add a little ammo room like the scientist apartments on the top route. I had thought about using instant raise pits for ammo but it would seem like you missed ammo that was NOT there the first time you went, so I just did the ammo room thing. Testing the amount needed now.

And I thought checked your profile ago and noticed Finland, since you've been just about the only one to test this consistently it's going to create some late nights for me >.< Ah well, better than nobody eh :P

EDIT: here's the ammo room version.
http://wadhost.fathax.com/files/AB.Area42.M1.5.B2.zip

ArmouredBlood said:

@ gazebo: I dled zdoom 2.3.1 for the demo and it seemed to desync, as right after you almost kill a chaingunner you go for the SSG to kill the revenant but the chaingunner is still alive and burns your health while you get hit with a rocket from which you die. I assume that's not what really happened? :P

Indeed :P

You didn't try playing it on a later version of your level, did you? I downloaded the one that was in your first post in the thread. That's about the only thing I can think which might cause a de-sync. :S

Well I found the right version, Map05.B3. Next time say which one you demo'd on :P I'll see what I can think up next.

Bumpify me cap'n

Map 10 is about done layout wise and easier difficulties. Would like some feedback.
http://wadhost.fathax.com/files/AB.A42M10.B.zip

Man this level's awesome, a lot of time was clearly put into it just looking at the automap. I finally beat it with saves (kinda iddqd'd toward the end this time but I could beat it w/o saves though challenging and its quite hectic/fun). Is it still beatable without the blue/red keys (just yellow) or maybe I screwed up somehow. I saw a few HOMS, I can probably remember where they are if you don't already know of them (one near a hidden switch in a bloodfall.. in prboomplus at least).
There is 'sticking enemies' in some places though on the warp spots especially at the very end (only on map 30 do those cubes telefrag I think.. though maybe one can edit a non-30 map to have that property with xwe or dhacked or something, not sure). It kinda works fine even though they stick.
One note about levels with boss shooters, the traditional 'max kills' demo rule seems to = 'kill all original non-spawning enemies', so might be hard to figure that out on this level, so I guess the main demo route might be speed. But of course its possible to just play for fun without following those conventions. Maybe the 2nd warp line on the stair spirals could be the line before it for smoother effect? not sure.

This map is hard. But good. :) makes me realise how much I play from a "safe haven" perspective. Clear one area, on to the next. And this map doesn't always allow you to do that. I haven't played all the way through yet, on account of I keep getting rudely interrupted by revenant rockets, though the odd cyberdemon has pitched in to help out with the interrupting. And some mancs too. And some...

Super Jamie said:

If other ultra-hards (HR, AV, DV and sequels) are anything to go by, you'd at least end up with a popular episode.

I never understood why AV is put in the same category as HR. IMO, one is "classic" Doom2 style gameplay, the other is , well, "HR" style gameplay, and they don't seem to be much alike.

But probably that's just me.

Thanks for playing guys :D If you didn't see the first post was updated, I said I was still working on balancing UV, props to you ggg if you made it on that. The keys aren't necessary to beat the level, but they do block off a spawner target each in the final fight, so if you find em, good for you. I MIGHT not have seen if the switches work though, so maybe you didn't notice -.-

I might just shift the whole episode to maps20-30 for telefragging, I could use transfer skys for the earlier levels if they need them. Or I could just figure out how to make my own, which I might by the end of this. Skipping to map20 would make it a bit disjointed though ... I was thinking of expanding the episode to a megawad but I've only got 4ish maps complete at the moment.

I'll check for HoMs today, should have plenty of time. If you could send me some screens of where they are to double-check it'd be great. Considering there are about 1,500+ monsters on UV I think it'd be interesting if someone could kill most of the originals and not hit 2,000+. I'll check into the stairs, I have the teleport on the edge of a step, but it should probably be in the middle. Unfortunately I don't want to copy/paste and re-trigger the lines ago so it's going to be fun getting them lined up.

@ kyka; I try to operate on the safe haven perspective myself the first time through a map, but ones like scythe 24 and the final episode of scythe 2 make that kind of hard. So I adapt :P Some of the projectile arcs are ridiculous, if you notice that torch pillar by the axe icon, it's to keep the cyberdemons from the sword icon from hitting you while you fight the axe cybers -.-

on AV ... I haven't actually played it :( it's another thing on my "bring myself up to speed on doom" to-do list, but now I think I'll go for it.

1 failed attempt and 2 short demos for a42map10.wad (maybe I used wrong version):
a) stuck behind those mini stairs near start
b) showed homs I saw (moved arrow keys back/forth to mark each (nomonsters).
also fell in sector 1206 with no way out?



EDIT: oh yeah,
http://www.sendspace.com/file/otgtzx

um, you forgot to link the demos =/ I know about the stair problem and was going to fix it but kept wanting to finish the map first. I'll try and look for HoM too.

Not too shabby, few things id change though.

Doom64Marine said:

Not too shabby, few things id change though.

Then state them, leaving an open answer like that is annoying :P

Texture choice for the outside of the tech base looks sort of like a bathroom wall X), and some of the outside walls are paper thin, when you walk all the way around the base you can easily see them, nothing big, just a few things that look out of place. other than that good work.

There are 3 maps in the latest version for A42.wad, and map 10 on it's own. Sure you checked all of them?

Yah, the tech base is the only one that stuck out the rest of them are impressive.

Finally beat my own map on UV in prboom :D saved and died a lot though. Also in some points definitely need more megaspheres/cells. Might also make another curve in that mass arch-viles alcove, not enough room to dodge them, the revenents behind, AND a random cyb who gets off the platform.

That about wraps up that map, so with that out of the way I think I can focus on the next map. I fixed some of the HoM and the stairs problem, but I'll wait until I get the next map up, which I'm thinking will be MAP08, in the same wad. I figured I'll make even and odd number map wads to keep the dls smaller.

Cool. Gonna leave it map 10, or change to 30?
Now that I think about it, the spiralish steps kinda near 'I' might be better with maybe 128ish tall ceiling (so the ceiling 'steps' up just like the floor.. reason is infinitely tall cacos can fly high in there preventing you from climbing).
I did beat the prvious version's vile horde but that was with saves; didn't need to kill the reverents that time. Cybers are a lot easier when you learn how to take them out in 2 bfg hits (saves ammo too).