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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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I don't own my work, you are right. But then again, neither do you. If you had any decency, you would freely let me take my work. Work to which you contributed nothing. I could almost understand your point if you had ever worked on anything at all with me, but you haven't. It was all me. Sorry. I don't care nor want your credit. You are not in a position to use any of it.

I think it is pretty clear to everybody that you shouldn't be running this project. You should quit. It is not like you ever did anything anyway.

Old Post 02-16-14 01:04 #
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Ralphis
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I mostly sympathize with Kyka in this thread (because what happened here was pretty disrespectful of his time and effort even if he made the shittiest maps in the world) but claiming the rights to "his" texture pack with a bunch of shit you didn't even make is laughable. Just because you harvest a bunch of other peoples' work and sort it in a wad doesn't really make that shit yours. It reminds me of when people used to rip sprite sheets and would plaster "SPRITE SHEET DONE BY AQUAMAN2145 DO NOT STEAL MUST CREDIT

Old Post 02-16-14 01:17 #
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mrthejoshmon
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Ok, now this getting a bit too hostile with the ego insults and the backhanding and the bitch slapping...

Here is a question, if somebody has creating something themselves (or with help), does that make the something in question their (and the people who assisted, respectively) their property?

Because last time I heard, the answer was yes and if they own the item in question (I.E it is theirs, they command what is done with it) then you would usually have to either buy (not in this case) or ask for permission to use it, that said if you are to take something and use it for your gain without said permission it is classed as stealing, no?

But wouldn't the owner also need the consent of those who helped them (It is their work as well)? But this could also be affected by how much work the third party did...

Basically, possibly not all those textures are yours KiiiYiiiKiiiA if they were also worked on by others (You would need permission to remove the textures from those who aided in their creation to withdraw them, unless they did minimal amounts of work on them or unless they gave you the right to own the textures and such they helped you with), however the textures and such you did are under your complete command and can be withdrawn at your will.

Does that make any sense? I kinda rambled.

Old Post 02-16-14 01:19 #
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Megamur
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Yes, perhaps it would be best to let the texture pack go, Kyka. I know you did a lot of work assembling the resources, but they've been made freely available to modders by other designers, and I'm not sure you have any right to retract them since they're not technically yours. The TNT 2 team should certainly remove any textures you directly made yourself, but beyond that, I say let them go. I know you want the satisfaction of making them recompile all the resources themselves, but.... Well, think of it as your last favor to the project you put so much work into: Leave the texture pack so it doesn't have to be delayed any further.

Old Post 02-16-14 01:48 #
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mrthejoshmon
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Unless Kyka can secure permissions from the people who helped, then he could pull the plug but only on the textures he received permission for, another factor could come into play where if Kyka had made the texture itself and somebody slightly improved it with like 1 or 2 effects over it then it really still is Kyka's work and he has the right to do what he desires with it.

It's weird like that, if you really didn't do much to it like change 1 or two pixels then you really can't call ownership of it (but here is to doubting people literally edited just a few pixels), also if somebody suggested the improvement and Kyka manually preformed those improvements himself with no third party involvement except just coming up with the idea, then it is undoubtedly Kyka's work (Example of what I mean: When you receive suggested improvements for a map, it hardly makes the person who suggested it have the right to have their name on it as well as rights to own it, yes it would be shallow to not even mention them, but you don't have to)

Old Post 02-16-14 02:09 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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You are all sort of missing the point a little bit. I am not stopping anyone from using other people's textures. I don't own their textures, and they are publicly available. Feel free to use all the textures. Go ahead. Use them. Just go get them for yourselves. I even provided the sources where I got them all from.

What is so bad about that? Wishing for people to not use my texture pack is not the same as not letting people use the actual textures themselves. (For example, under U.S. law, people who arrange a song are entitled to payment, even if they haven't written a note of the song itself.)

The only issue here is that certain people don't want to do that level of work. But they really should.

A lot of the standard textures I have modified anyway, but that is beside the point.

I am sure we will work something out.

Old Post 02-16-14 02:39 #
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Megamur
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:
The only issue here is that certain people don't want to do that level of work. But they really should.

But they won't, so there's not much sense in stressing over it. I think you should just let this one slide so we can move on. And even if it might be amusing to watch them do all the work all over again, it would be a real waste of time for them to have to recompile all the stuff that they already have, and haven't we all wasted enough time with this project?

Old Post 02-16-14 02:46 #
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Ragnor
I do see the humour in a mod sneakily changing my title


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Id rather not have those two get off easy for casually fucking over so many people and laughing about it. Especially when one did practically nothing all this time and now pretty much wants to steal another's hard work now that hes gotten rid of the actual worker. How low can you seriously get?

Old Post 02-16-14 05:58 #
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pcorf
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To be honest, no matter how hard we try nothing is going to be perfect. Even my map (MAP16) submitted for this project was not perfect and I thought it was quite linear in many ways, but so were some levels in the original TNT (like MAP05). It will be up to you guys if you want to keep it, make gameplay or layout changes or remove it from the project. But I am sure its okay enough to keep.

Last edited by pcorf on 02-16-14 at 08:12

Old Post 02-16-14 07:56 #
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pcorf
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Processingcontrol said:

3:

Here's a list of linear TNT maps: 01, 02, 03, 05, 06, 08, 10, 13, 14, 19, 20, 21, 26, 27, 29, 30, 31, 32. That's over half of them.

Nonlinear maps are cool and all, but Evilution was a generally linear mapset.



Agree 100%.

Old Post 02-16-14 08:11 #
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Olympus
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I'm gonna have to agree with Ragnor here, Whoo has proven over the past three years that he is an incapable leader. I think maybe someone new should take over the project.

Old Post 02-16-14 11:23 #
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alterworldruler
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Stop backseat moderating or backseat leading the project. It's up to Whoo to decide anything, it's not YOUR decision, neither mine.

Instead of CREATING more drama and keep going on like a broken vinyl player on a junkyard, about how you guys wait for an official word from him himself? It won't DO ANYTHING or matter anything unless he himself says anything.

Old Post 02-16-14 11:51 #
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Ragnor
I do see the humour in a mod sneakily changing my title


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You two opened this can of worms. Are you really so surprised that youve pissed off such a massive amount of people?

You told me you didn't want this project to go down like this, then, did it anyway. I put my faith in you, and look where that went. Youve both royally screwed up, wrecked years of work, went about it in the most underhanded rudest way possible, and likely destroyed your own public images in the process. The least you could do is own up to your mistakes. Tarnsman has.

Old Post 02-16-14 12:11 #
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Springy
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How about you guys just stop the circlejerking seeing as that's getting this nowhere but into even more shit. This is just holding the project up even more and blaming people is just getting you nowhere and to be quite frank, it makes you look pathetic, laughably pathetic. It would probably be best if this was discussed in a civilised manner over IRC or something.

Old Post 02-16-14 12:20 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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alterworldruler said:
Stop backseat moderating or backseat leading the project. It's up to Whoo to decide anything, it's not YOUR decision, neither mine.

Instead of CREATING more drama and keep going on like a broken vinyl player on a junkyard, about how you guys wait for an official word from him himself? It won't DO ANYTHING or matter anything unless he himself says anything.



This would be true if whoo actually ever made good decisions. We didn't start all this drama. You will keep seeing posts like that until you actually decide to do the right thing.

We'll wait. It's ok. Take your time.



Springy said:
How about you guys just stop the circlejerking seeing as that's getting this nowhere but into even more shit. This is just holding the project up even more and blaming people is just getting you nowhere and to be quite frank, it makes you look pathetic, laughably pathetic. It would probably be best if this was discussed in a civilised manner over IRC or something.


I see you have set a fine example of discussing things in a civilised manner... not. Typical. You want everyone who disagrees with you to be all nice and polite while you make pointless and insulting posts like this.

Also, you say that we are holding up this project? Well whoo held up this project for years. If it was up to him, all tnt2 would have to show now is a handful of half assed maps and a couple of MIDI's.

Old Post 02-16-14 13:07 #
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Springy
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You just proved my point seeing as you just added more bullshit into here

You will keep seeing posts like that until you actually decide to do the right thing.
which you aimed at Alter there, completely unnecessary and I never insulted anyone, not my fault if you're over sensitive you fucking hypocrite, I am sure you get far more abusive comments away from the computer screen anyway. Don't ever try and pick an argument with me as you will just embarrass yourself even more.

Old Post 02-16-14 13:18 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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Springy said:
This is just holding the project up even more and blaming people is just getting you nowhere and to be quite frank, it makes you look pathetic, laughably pathetic.


Yeah. Right. You never insulted anyone. Do you even read your own posts?


Springy said:
You just proved my point seeing as you just added more bullshit into here which you aimed at Alter there, completely unnecessary and I never insulted anyone, not my fault if you're over sensitive you fucking hypocrite, I am sure you get far more abusive comments away from the computer screen anyway. Don't ever try and pick an argument with me as you will just embarrass yourself even more.


Dude. Seriously. Settle down.

Old Post 02-16-14 13:27 #
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mrthejoshmon
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#SHOTSFIRED

This is getting stupid now, I see this ending real bad so far, so why don't we all just shut the fuck up (including me) and walk away, you already made intentions clear and we don't need a pool of bad blood in this shitstorm.

Is this backseat modding BTW? I never really knew what that was (and I will gladly fuck off and stop if it is).

Old Post 02-16-14 13:30 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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Well said, mrthejoshmon. And with that in mind...



Whoo said:


No, we're still using the compilation you made.

Had you hand-crafted the textures in it I would be obliged to remove it from the project, but it's a compiled resource of other peoples's work.

If however you did make some of them, please PM me the list of which ones you made so I can remove them from the resource wad.




Thinking about it, and assuming that whoo is still determined to keep the current texture pack for TNT2, then this may not be such a bad solution to the current mess. TNT2 will have its texture pack back for you guys to use, minus only the flats and patches that I made myself, which I will use elsewhere.

Seems reasonable to me. Thoughts?

The three or so maps which I did the majority of the work on which are still in this project, we will sort out later.

Old Post 02-16-14 13:54 #
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alterworldruler
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:
Well said, mrthejoshmon. And with that in mind...

Thinking about it, and assuming that whoo is still determined to keep the current texture pack for TNT2, then this may not be such a bad solution to the current mess. TNT2 will have its texture pack back for you guys to use, minus only the flats and patches that I made myself, which I will use elsewhere.

Seems reasonable to me. Thoughts?

The three or so maps which I did the majority of the work on which are still in this project, we will sort out later.

Now we are getting somewhere, yeah PM Whoo if you can, which textures you made or patches and we'll get it solved. Look, i'm sorry that this happened and that I acted immature about it and I do feel bad about it, but what's done is done, now we gotta seek the proper solutions, but there's no need for us to go hating on each other, what are those 3 maps by the way? Might as well get it out of the way now.

Old Post 02-16-14 14:01 #
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ducon
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I want monsters infighting, not doomers infighting.

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Old Post 02-16-14 14:32 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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alterworldruler said:
Now we are getting somewhere, yeah PM Whoo if you can, which textures you made or patches and we'll get it solved. Look, i'm sorry that this happened and that I acted immature about it and I do feel bad about it, but what's done is done, now we gotta seek the proper solutions, but there's no need for us to go hating on each other, what are those 3 maps by the way? Might as well get it out of the way now.



If that is ok, let's sort out the texture pack issues first. Once that is done, then we can look at the maps I've worked on after that. Alter, I'll PM you my thoughts soon in that regard.

Before we start down this road though, I want whoo, as the head of TNT2, to post publicly that he accepts or doesn't accept this compromise on my part, so it is clear to everyone that things are being worked out. I think that is kinda important. So, for the sake of transparency and clarity:

======================================================================

-You guys get the full texture pack in its final and current form with only the patches/flats that I have made myself, or made reasonable alterations myself to be removed. (There are a bunch of modified iwad patches that I will also take, but this shouldn't make any extra work for you as it should just default back to the iwad ones once my modified ones are removed.)

-I will give over to you all of Thomas van der Velden's patches (including the map 30 icon patches, as well as any intermission screens etc that he did for this project.) I will keep the intermission screen that I made, but that is probably ok as you guys weren't going to use it anyway.

-The only patches I want to keep that are not my own are some of the Egyptian themed patches. But I don't see this as a big issue, seeing as I think you scrapped Valkiriforce's Egyptian themed level anyway. (If you guys don't use the map, I will use it if I can get in touch with Valkiriforce for permission.)

-I made/modified a bunch of textures/flats for ProcessingControl to use on his maps. I will leave all those in for you guys for the sake of his maps.

I think that covers most of what we need to cover in regards to the texture pack. (I should add that there are quite a few patches/flats that I did actually make for this project. It will still probably be a bit of work to replace those. But you get everything else exactly as it was. (With the exception of the Egyptian textures that weren't by me, which I would like to take.)

=====================================================================



And Alter, on a personal note, I appreciate your apology, and to you I offer my own apology. I feel that I haven't done much wrong here, except for some of my posting, which hasn't exactly done me any favors, haha. You have been pretty genuine most of the time, and you have been good to work with, and while I don't agree with you backing whoo with what has happened recently, I certainly hold no grudges.

In other news, I am actually skyping with Xaser tomorrow, to hopefully continue working all this out.

Last edited by KiiiYiiiKiiiA on 02-16-14 at 14:59

Old Post 02-16-14 14:52 #
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Ragnor
I do see the humour in a mod sneakily changing my title


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alterworldruler said:
Look, i'm sorry that this happened and that I acted immature about it and I do feel bad about it, but what's done is done, now we gotta seek the proper solutions, but there's no need for us to go hating on each other, what are those 3 maps by the way? Might as well get it out of the way now.


Thank you. While its too late to reverse any damage, at least it takes some of the sting out of it. I worked damn hard testing the amount of maps I received, yours included. Apparently I was even good enough at it for you to invite me to help with Stomper while TNT2 was inactive. I guess you didnt stop to think that by going along with this plan, you would throw out EVERYTHING I worked for this year. I really trusted you, and you, knowingly or not, stabbed me in the back while I was distracted by Stomper.

I'm pretty sure two of the maps Kyka is referring to is Unsolved Requiem ans Militia Outpost. If you look at the first post, Whoo, in ANOTHER case of bad management, has since scrubbed Kyka's name off those two maps, as such I can guarantee everything Kyka, Megamur and I ever did for this project wont ever be officially credited.

I'm perfectly happy with anything Kyka worked on extensively to coexist in the current Devilution, and his eventual project, so that everything Megamur and I did wasnt for nothing.

Old Post 02-16-14 15:03 #
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alterworldruler
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You guys are free to take what was taken away and start your own little community project, there is nothing or no one stopping you from do so, infact I would encourage it personally. Since i'm sure Kyka has his own share of fans out there. Meanwhile let's solve all the current issues.

Again, i'm really sorry and I am co-responsible for what happened, I suppose it would happen sooner or later... better now than when TNT2 would be basically ready for release instantly.

Old Post 02-16-14 15:18 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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Ragnor said:


I'm pretty sure two of the maps Kyka is referring to is Unsolved Requiem ans Militia Outpost. If you look at the first post, Whoo, in ANOTHER case of bad management, has since scrubbed Kyka's name off those two maps, as such I can guarantee everything Kyka, Megamur and I ever did for this project wont ever be officially credited.



Thank you for pointing this out. Man I built those maps virtually from the ground up. I see that he has also removed my name from Tango's map 08, which I did most everything except the basic layout. Someone go get in touch with Tango, and get his thoughts on this.

Come on Alter, How are you still defending this guy? Seriously.

I also did a lot of work on map 06 (Again, ProcessingControl sent me that map to finish most of it except the layout and some thing placement.) I'll leave it up to ProcessingControl as to whether he wants to credit me for that work or not.

Old Post 02-16-14 15:19 #
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Ragnor
I do see the humour in a mod sneakily changing my title


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(Map 6) While it only popped up on my mapsets at the very end, I did bust my ass off on that, and found quite a lot of critical errors. I'd like that to be acknowledged in some way.

How fair game is Subterraneal Magnitude? Its been a hotbed of drama several times, being a three-way map. I did this one so often I practically watched it grow, theres even a full secret in there thats pretty much mine. That made me smile so much seeing that.

Note: I don't want these pulled out of TNT2, just the right to have the versions we worked so hard on used in the split-off project, given the extreme polishing thats going to take place, I imagine they'll end up entirely different.

Old Post 02-16-14 15:32 #
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Whoo
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:
======================================================================

-You guys get the full texture pack in its final and current form with only the patches/flats that I have made myself, or made reasonable alterations myself to be removed. (There are a bunch of modified iwad patches that I will also take, but this shouldn't make any extra work for you as it should just default back to the iwad ones once my modified ones are removed.)

-I will give over to you all of Thomas van der Velden's patches (including the map 30 icon patches, as well as any intermission screens etc that he did for this project.) I will keep the intermission screen that I made, but that is probably ok as you guys weren't going to use it anyway.

-The only patches I want to keep that are not my own are some of the Egyptian themed patches. But I don't see this as a big issue, seeing as I think you scrapped Valkiriforce's Egyptian themed level anyway. (If you guys don't use the map, I will use it if I can get in touch with Valkiriforce for permission.)

-I made/modified a bunch of textures/flats for ProcessingControl to use on his maps. I will leave all those in for you guys for the sake of his maps.

I think that covers most of what we need to cover in regards to the texture pack. (I should add that there are quite a few patches/flats that I did actually make for this project. It will still probably be a bit of work to replace those. But you get everything else exactly as it was. (With the exception of the Egyptian textures that weren't by me, which I would like to take.)

=====================================================================



That's a fair compromise, I have no problem with agreeing with that. I'll talk to Xaser later tonight to see what else you come up with.


Ragnor said:
I'm pretty sure two of the maps Kyka is referring to is Unsolved Requiem ans Militia Outpost. If you look at the first post, Whoo, in ANOTHER case of bad management, has since scrubbed Kyka's name off those two maps, as such I can guarantee everything Kyka, Megamur and I ever did for this project wont ever be officially credited.


His name was taken off for now because as of now those maps were reverted to how they were before Kyka modified them.

His name is no longer on Tango's map because that was reverted as well. As Kyka said, I have to contact him and see if we can get permission to finish the old one or see if he wants to do it.

EDIT:

We reverted them because I assume Kyka doesn't want us to use his changes. If that's incorrect, I'm sure he'll sort all that out with Xaser later today.

Last edited by Whoo on 02-16-14 at 18:37

Old Post 02-16-14 18:22 #
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TheMionicDonut
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http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view3/4663089/everything-s-going-so-well-o.gif

mfw everything's going so well

Old Post 02-16-14 19:09 #
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Megamur
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I also hope I'll get some sort of credit listed in the final release. I'm pretty certain I tested MAP05, which I don't believe Kyka ever worked on. Possibly others as well, but it's hard to say judging just by the map names alone. Even dropping me in the Special Thanks section of the text file will do. :)

Old Post 02-16-14 23:24 #
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Ragnor
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If youve reverted everything, then we can have our shitty linear maps and you can have your polished golden versions, and we can see how each evolved in its own way. By this point my only remaining work is in 24, 27 and 28, the three maps Kyka didnt send me, and I found critical flaws in 27 and 28 that saved players from a lot of frustration.

Old Post 02-16-14 23:37 #
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