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Tarnsman
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Plutonia 2 was made under strict vanilla limits and it looks great, there is no reason this can't either.

@Kyka: No I'm pointing out that the first half is what I was saying as I was playing the map and the second bit is some extra other thoughts I had like the next day after thinking on it.

Old Post 02-15-14 03:46 #
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j4rio
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Tarnsman said:
Plutonia 2 was made under strict vanilla limits and it looks great, there is no reason this can't either.



Plutonia 2 was made in 8 years. There is no reason TNT 2 shouldn't be either.

Old Post 02-15-14 03:51 #
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Tarnsman
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Plutonia 2 also was pretty much completed had Gusta come in and throw 80% of the work out and restart the project from basically scratch. So I guess it's fitting that both Final Doom sequels have the same dev cycles?

Old Post 02-15-14 03:54 #
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Snakes
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j4rio said:


Plutonia 2 was made in 8 years. There is no reason TNT 2 shouldn't either.


PRCP is a good-looking vanilla megawad that was made in about a year. It's plenty feasible to do this.

Old Post 02-15-14 03:56 #
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Megamur
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All right, guys. I think we better hang it up. We've all expressed our viewpoints and the decisions have been made. Any further arguing will go nowhere and will probably just make the mods angrier. I don't want you guys getting in trouble.

Old Post 02-15-14 04:01 #
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Marcaek
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Plutonia 2 looks and plays far better than TNT2. There's variety in layouts, visuals, and gameplay in comparison to straight lines, brown and bare, and unclogging hallways with a rocket launcher.

Old Post 02-15-14 04:01 #
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Processingcontrol
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Tarnsman said:
Also when Whoo says lineal he means "the layout is literally go in a straight line for 90% of the map", this is the case with a lot of TNT2.


Okay, guess me and Whoo have different definitions of linearity. To me a linear map is one where there's generally only one path given to achieve the required objectives.

If Whoo thinks "linear" is synonymous with "shitty" (as you describe), than maybe he should make that more clear when he mentions linearity is problem.



P.S. My narrower view on what makes a good doom map is "it's fun to play" otherwise I wouldn't like and defend the wide variety and ranging quality of maps that I do like and will defend in TNT2.

Then your view on "what's fun" is certainly narrower than most peoples'.

Old Post 02-15-14 04:02 #
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Whoo
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:


Three. Fucking. Years. And. You. Never. Said. Anything.



To which I can't argue against. I became so overburdened with school and other things going on that I eventually forced myself to assume the project was able to direct itself. As Tarnsman said, it was a failure of management. And that's why we're having to do this so late in the dev-cycle.

Old Post 02-15-14 04:05 #
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Tarnsman
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For processing control.

All I'm saying is that TNT2 could stand to look a bit closer to this: http://imgur.com/a/Uki3b and less closer to this http://imgur.com/a/V3aZJ (note I actually really enjoyed half the maps I took screen shots from in the 2nd examples) I'm not saying they look terrible. I'm saying that they look messy, bare or unfinished and could use some POLISH. Polish =/= complete drastic visual overhaul.

Edit: Here are some more shot Xaser took of stuff he thought looked cool http://imgur.com/a/egIxF.

Last edited by Tarnsman on 02-15-14 at 04:19

Old Post 02-15-14 04:11 #
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Ragnor
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*slow clap* What quality leadership skills there. Should have handed over the reins if you honestly thought things would create themselves while you went off and ignored it. Kyka was the backbone of this entire project all this time.

Old Post 02-15-14 04:11 #
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Marcaek
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The uniformity of scale really bothered me personally: it felt like a lot of hallways(which there were too many of) were all overly and needlessly spacious. The areas they connect were also similar in scale to each other which really detracts from uniqueness on a room to room basis. TNT had a lot of large areas but just as many small, efficiently spaced ones.

Old Post 02-15-14 04:17 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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Tarnsman said:
For processing control.

All I'm saying is that TNT2 could stand to look a bit closer to this: http://imgur.com/a/Uki3b and less closer to this http://imgur.com/a/V3aZJ (note I actually really enjoyed half the maps I took screen shots from in the 2nd examples) I'm not saying they look terrible. I'm saying that they look messy, bare or unfinished and could use some POLISH. Polish =/= complete drastic visual overhaul.

Edit: Here are some more shot Xaser took of stuff he thought looked cool http://imgur.com/a/egIxF.




Interestingly enough, I agree with you on some of your pics, in terms of what looks good and bad. But some of the ones you actually like look simply crap to me. Seriously? and some of the ones you don't like are actually pretty good. Incidentally, a lot of the screens you posted are from stuff I have never even seen before. W. T. F.

I discount anything you posted, just because it is obvious how biased you are. But of all the screens Xaser posted, about half are from stuff I worked on. Can't be all bad then. Good to see that you dumped everything I did.


Ragnor said:
*slow clap* What quality leadership skills there. Should have handed over the reins if you honestly thought things would create themselves while you went off and ignored it. Kyka was the backbone of this entire project all this time.


:D



Marcaek said:
The uniformity of scale really bothered me personally: it felt like a lot of hallways(which there were too many of) were all overly and needlessly spacious. The areas they connect were also similar in scale to each other which really detracts from uniqueness on a room to room basis. TNT had a lot of large areas but just as many small, efficiently spaced ones.


And if we made more small areas, you would complain that the levels were too cramped. Fair enough, you make some valid points. But first, most of this was out of my hands. I did what I could. And second, I tolerated encouraged far more uniqueness in the maps than will be present from this point.

Last edited by KiiiYiiiKiiiA on 02-15-14 at 04:47

Old Post 02-15-14 04:42 #
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Processingcontrol
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Tarnsman said:
All I'm saying is that TNT2 could stand to look a bit closer to this: http://imgur.com/a/Uki3b and less closer to this http://imgur.com/a/V3aZJ(note I actually really enjoyed half the maps I took screen shots from in the 2nd examples).

I looked through the images in the second link. I agree that a few of those areas look terrible, but most look decent. 11 (the one with all the green and metal textures) looks even better than some of the shots in the first link. Sure, all those places you didn't like can be improved, but so can the ones in the first set in images. It'd be great all the mappers were given detailed feedback on the visuals in their maps, and they were given some time to fix them up (I'd be willing to work on that part of Map05), but it's not a necessity. I'm sure "Map 14 and Xaser's new Map 12" could use some improvements too, maybe just as much as some of the other maps.

If you really enjoyed half of those maps from 2nd batch of shots, do they really need MASSIVE amounts of polish?

Old Post 02-15-14 04:44 #
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Gez
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Dramalution 2: the Gotcherdramarung

Old Post 02-15-14 04:46 #
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Tarnsman
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Processingcontrol said:
If you really enjoyed half of those maps from 2nd batch of shots, do they really need MASSIVE amounts of polish?


Yes, because polish is just that. POLISH. Polish is not massive amounts of visual refinement and complete thematic overhaul. It's just making areas look more visually cohesive and complete. There are a lot of maps where you have really detailed areas right next to really bare areas and it's visually jarring as fuck. I have issues with 14 and 12 and map 20 as well, but they're getting a pass right now because they have a cohesive overall theme and look finished. That's what TNT2 needs.

@Kyka: my issues with your maps as first and foremost always been layout and gameplay. Visuals are generally fine (sans THE BROWNINING) if you looked at the criticism I posted I listed several places where you came up with some really visually cool stuff.

Last edited by Tarnsman on 02-15-14 at 04:57

Old Post 02-15-14 04:50 #
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Marcaek
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:
And if we made more small areas, you would complain that the levels were too cramped. Fair enough, you make some valid points. But first, most of this was out of my hands. I did what I could. And second, I tolerated encouraged far more uniqueness in the maps than will be present from this point.



Excuse me? Who the fuck are you to tell me what my opinions are? Are you insinuating I'm just arguing with you for kicks? I genuinely liked TNT the first time around, even parts like that 64 wide hallway ambush in Stronghold.

Check yourself.

Old Post 02-15-14 05:00 #
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Processingcontrol
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Tarnsman said:


Yes, because polish is just that. POLISH. Polish is not massive amounts of visual refinement and complete thematic overhaul. It's just making areas look more visually cohesive and complete. There are a lot of maps where you have really detailed areas right next to really bare areas and it's visually jarring as fuck.


I'm sure all the maps can use some polish. The way you stated it as "massive" amounts of polish made it seem as if you wanted some bigger changes. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

But why can't Xaser's maps have some polish too? Even the greatest doom maps of all time, IMO, can use some changes.

And once again, no map really needs polish if they're already enjoyable. Didn't you say a doom map was good as long as it was fun to play?

EDIT: Okay, so you think Xaser's maps don't need polish because "they have a cohesive overall theme and look finished". Fair enough, but so do the two Kyka maps and the Whoo map in demo #2 (the one from December 2011). I haven't played any other maps from this project besides map01 from that demo and my own maps, but from what I've seen, most of them also look finished.

EDIT #2: You should be aware that saying something along the lines of "all your maps need massive changes except for those by this one special guy" can come off as insulting.

Last edited by Processingcontrol on 02-15-14 at 05:21

Old Post 02-15-14 05:07 #
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Tarnsman
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1. Because Xaser's maps and Kassman's maps already look visually complete which is all I'm asking for. They have a consistent visual style for areas and the whole area feels done, they lack sudden "oh this is just totally bare what happened?" moments. At that point I drastically lower my amount of bitching to a slight nag about stuff that still bugs me. Ask Xaser I still bitch at him all the time.

2. Just because a map is fun doesn't mean shoddy or messy visuals can't detract from it, and there is no reason to release something that can clearly be made better without making it better. You can take this too far (see BTSX dev hell sometimes) but taking the massive amount of bare areas and making them look as good as areas IN THE SAME MAP isn't some byzantine challenge. Think of it this way, you're watching a film and you're liking a film but suddenly some really cheesy special effect pops in or you catch a glimpse of the crew or something, that's what playing an unpolished map is like. Yes it's still enjoyable, but it's going to take you out of the experience and not fixing that stuff for the sake of shoving something out the door is lazy.

3. When pretty much every map needs polish, it is MASSIVE amounts of polish. If you walked into a 10,000 square foot room and had to buff the floor, you'd need to do MASSIVE amounts of buffing, but you still wouldn't be totally tearing up the floor and replacing it with new shit. (You only do that when the foundation is totally flawed).

Edit. 4. For the 15th time, my problem with Kyka's maps is layout, which is a fundamental flaw not visuals. And this is not some new flaw. I pointed this out about ten? months ago when Kyka first posted a screenshot of Map 17's layout and I responded by calling it stringy which led to massive amounts of butthurt and him telling me to play the map (I did, it's stringy). When a layout is flawed that's when you need to do massive changes. I know, I've thrown out TONS of material because it just wasn't working.

Old Post 02-15-14 05:22 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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Tarnsman said:


Yes, because polish is just that. POLISH. Polish is not massive amounts of visual refinement and complete thematic overhaul. It's just making areas look more visually cohesive and complete. There are a lot of maps where you have really detailed areas right next to really bare areas and it's visually jarring as fuck. I have issues with 14 and 12 and map 20 as well, but they're getting a pass right now because they have a cohesive overall theme and look finished. That's what TNT2 needs.

@Kyka: my issues with your maps as first and foremost always been layout and gameplay. Visuals are generally fine (sans THE BROWNINING) if you looked at the criticism I posted I listed several places where you came up with some really visually cool stuff.




Tarnsman said:
1. Because Xaser's maps and Kassman's maps already look visually complete which is all I'm asking for. They have a consistent visual style for areas and the whole area feels done, they lack sudden "oh this is just totally bare what happened?" moments. At that point I drastically lower my amount of bitching to a slight nag about stuff that still bugs me. Ask Xaser I still bitch at him all the time.




Dude. This project ran fine for three years before you got here. And you know what? I have said before that you are good at what you do, and, in spite of our differences, I would have welcomed working with you on this project. But not now. You suck as a leader because you don't know your own limitations, and you value your own opinions far too much. These posts show that. "I will stop bitching when I get my own way," is so typical of you. Unlike you, I know my limitations, and I have welcomed other people to work on this project for that very reason.

Some of the criticisms you have made, I would have done myself if I had been running this. But hijacking a project and throwing out whatever doesn't fit your narrow tastes is a crap way to do things, and I don't want to work with people so poor at assessing themselves, and who care so little about the ideas of others Seriously, other people seem to be nothing more to you than mirrors that reflect your own inflated opinions back to you. And if they don't, treat them like the retarded morons they so obviously are.


Marcaek said:


Excuse me? Who the fuck are you to tell me what my opinions are? Are you insinuating I'm just arguing with you for kicks? I genuinely liked TNT the first time around, even parts like that 64 wide hallway ambush in Stronghold.

Check yourself.



You make a fair point. My apologies.

Last edited by KiiiYiiiKiiiA on 02-15-14 at 05:28

Old Post 02-15-14 05:23 #
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Processingcontrol
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@Tarnsman

Okay, I'm beginning to see some of your points. My annoyance at your post had more to do with the wording than the actually content.

I still disagree with you on some stuff, but I don't think continuing in this manner will solve much.

Old Post 02-15-14 05:40 #
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Bucket
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Figures you people would have free time on Valentine's Day.

There's a lot of crap to wade through in these past few pages, but it all has the stink of politics and people reaching beyond their station. I took the time today for another submission, and I'll be neutral on this current drama until I know what the hell just happened.

"Total NoThingness"
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9...dit?usp=sharing

Old Post 02-15-14 05:41 #
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Tarnsman
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:
Dude. This project ran fine for three years before you got here. And you know what? I have said before that you are good at what you do, and, in spite of our differences, I would have welcomed working with you on this project. But not now. You suck as a leader because you don't know your own limitations, and you value your own opinions far too much. These posts show that. "I will stop bitching when I get my own way," is so typical of you. Unlike you, I know my limitations, and I have welcomed other people to work on this project for that very reason.


1. I'm not leading this project.

2. I just gave feedback to Whoo he is the one who decided to agree with it. Fuck he deleted 3/4ths of his own Map 10 based on my feedback and immediately started working on it again. Alter drastically reworked Map 27 based on my feedback. I didn't force them to do any of that.

3. If I didn't want other people to work on this project I would have just been like "Whoo this is now my project don't post saying we need new maps, don't tell people they need to fix their stuff, I'm doing everything!" Instead I told Whoo to make sure to make a forum post about it so everyone stayed in the loop and people had the opportunity to submit new stuff for it.

4. I scrap my work all the time based on feedback. I've thrown out so many maps it's not funny. Shit that I worked on for months and got "yeah not really feeling it" as feedback so in the garbage it went. If Whoo came to me and said "this is getting replaced because I like X better" I wouldn't lose my shit.

5. There have been plenty of projects I've bitched about and just moved on. You don't see me in the D2INO thread constantly bitching about Eris to radically change things. If I say I don't like something I leave it at that unless I'm working on the project and asked to give my opinion and I have to play it again and my opinion is still "I don't like it", I don't know how that's bitching. The project could be released tomorrow as is and I'd just say "well that sucks we shoved that out the door, oh well" and move on. If someone asked what I thought of it I'd tell them but I wouldn't go around demanding that the project be set to my standards before release. It's in whoo's hands. If whoo agrees with me that's fine, if he doesn't that's fine too. I was asked to give feedback, I did, and that translated to radical restructuring.

Old Post 02-15-14 05:42 #
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Processingcontrol
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Hey, I have an idea to solve all this crap:

We should hold vote on whether each individual map gets to stay in this project. The maps voted on will be the ones that were listed in the first post before all this stuff broke out today. The voters will be all the mappers and official playtesters for this project before today. Each voter will be given the chance to play each map before making a decision on it. Obviously mappers can't vote on their own maps. If a map is rejected it can be replaced by one of the maps by Tarnsman, Xaser, etc. that were suddenly added today, which will also be voted on.

Participating mappers must agree not to take out any accepted maps if one of their others doesn't make the cut.

Please share your opinions on this method.

(I feel this will only work out if Kyka agrees to participate.)

Old Post 02-15-14 05:57 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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Tarnsman said:


1. I'm not leading this project.

2. I just gave feedback to Whoo he is the one who decided to agree with it. Fuck he deleted 3/4ths of his own Map 10 based on my feedback and immediately started working on it again. Alter drastically reworked Map 27 based on my feedback. I didn't force them to do any of that.



Hey look at me. I'm giving directions to whoo about what maps to keep and what to throw out, and he is following my directions. But I'm totally not leading this.

Being a leader does not mean forcing anyone. It means giving directions, which they go and do. Do you even read what you write?

lol.



3. If I didn't want other people to work on this project I would have just been like "Whoo this is now my project don't post saying we need new maps, don't tell people they need to fix their stuff, I'm doing everything!" Instead I told Whoo to make sure to make a forum post about it so everyone stayed in the loop and people had the opportunity to submit new stuff for it.



I notice that everyone working on this new development team are either people that you have chosen, or at least approve of being on the team. Read your own post. "I told Whoo to make a forum post blah blah blah." But yeah, you are totally not running this...

lol



4. I scrap my work all the time based on feedback. I've thrown out so many maps it's not funny. Shit that I worked on for months and got "yeah not really feeling it" as feedback so in the garbage it went.



Am I supposed to care what you do with your own maps? Is that supposed to be some sort of justification with what you do with other people's maps? You are getting less credible by the minute.



If Whoo came to me and said "this is getting replaced because I like X better" I wouldn't lose my shit.



I bet if I told you to do that, you would lose your shit. Whoo happens to be compliant to what you want to do and what you want to hear.



5. There have been plenty of projects I've bitched about and just moved on.



Yes we know. We know you can bitch.


You don't see me in the D2INO thread constantly bitching about Eris to radically change things. If I say I don't like something I leave it at that unless I'm working on the project and asked to give my opinion and I have to play it again and my opinion is still "I don't like it", I don't know how that's bitching. The project could be released tomorrow as is and I'd just say "well that sucks we shoved that out the door, oh well" and move on. If someone asked what I thought of it I'd tell them but I wouldn't go around demanding that the project be set to my standards before release. It's in whoo's hands. If whoo agrees with me that's fine, if he doesn't that's fine too. I was asked to give feedback, I did, and that translated to radical restructuring.



translated to radical restructuring...

lol

I used to think that you were disingenuous but clever. But I am starting to think that neither is true, that you actually believe your own bullshit.

Whatever. Enjoy leading helping this project.

Old Post 02-15-14 06:08 #
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TheMionicDonut
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http://i.imgur.com/q7Iwf34.jpg

Old Post 02-15-14 06:12 #
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Tarnsman
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This just in. Giving feedback now constitutes leading. Every Presidential Aid has just been promoted to President of the United States because the President chose to do something based on feedback. Yup that makes sense!

Old Post 02-15-14 06:12 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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Processingcontrol said:
Hey, I have an idea to solve all this crap:

We should hold vote on whether each individual map gets to stay in this project. The maps voted on will be the ones that were listed in the first post before all this stuff broke out today. The voters will be all the mappers and official playtesters for this project before today. Each voter will be given the chance to play each map before making a decision on it. Obviously mappers can't vote on their own maps. If a map is rejected it can be replaced by one of the maps by Tarnsman, Xaser, etc. that were suddenly added today, which will also be voted on.

Participating mappers must agree not to take out any accepted maps if one of their others doesn't make the cut.

Please share your opinions on this method.

(I feel this will only work out if Kyka agrees to participate.)



Not a bad idea. I mean, we were going to release a public beta anyway, I thought. We could have done a vote on the maps like that anyway.

But this is a clusterfuck now. Maps being voted in or out? If whoo and tarnsman had come to me with their suggestions on my maps and other maps, sure, why not? I could have worked with that.

But now I have to work with people who have just thrown out several years of work, and hijacked everything instead of working with us to make the mapset better than it was. This is fucked. If they are going to be this political and backstabbing, they will be the same in a voting situation.

But the voting idea is not a bad one for all that.


Tarnsman said:
This just in. Giving feedback now constitutes leading. Every Presidential Aid has just been promoted to President of the United States because the President chose to do something based on feedback. Yup that makes sense!


If you can't tell the difference between giving feedback and giving directions, then I will assume that you are as ignorant as you are currently pretending to be.

Old Post 02-15-14 06:16 #
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TheMionicDonut
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So wait. Who is the project head again?

I don't know what is going on.
Help me life alert!

Old Post 02-15-14 06:19 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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Mionic I love you.

Old Post 02-15-14 06:21 #
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Tarnsman
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Whoo is the project leader not you, not me, he can do whatever he wants, I would not give the a single flying fuck if he threw out my work. I'm glad you can predict how I'd react to that though. I mean it's not like I've worked on BTSX and had Seele bitch at me throw out shit tons of work or anything, nope that never happens. You don't see me shitting all over her. I'm glad for the feedback. Just like I'd accept if Whoo didn't like something for HIS project.

But let me restate this for the record. I THOUGHT YOU LEFT THE PROJECT! I'm sorry if your last "I'm done I wash my hands of this" rant followed by Alter saying "we got Kyka's maps he doesn't care anymore" was somehow misleading. Alter asked me for feedback, I gave it to him, he gave it to Whoo, Whoo asked me for more feedback, he talked with Alter and Xaser about it, then he made a decision. At no point did I demand your shit be thrown out. I was asked if I didn't like it. I said yes, I said why I didn't like it and I gave a suggestion. I was not asked by you to give feedback on your maps. I did that once on map 17, you got butthurt called me an asshole and did nothing. Man you're so accepting to feedback Kyka.

Old Post 02-15-14 06:27 #
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