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Megamur
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I'm also hoping Kyka makes his own TNT project. Competition would probably push both projects to improve themselves, and in the end, the community gets even more content than they would've before.

Plus, I'd really just like to get back to work on something. How's that sound? We all shut up and work.

Old Post 02-15-14 15:39 #
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Tarnsman
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95% of the texture resource is not shit you made Kyka, so I don't see why you expect whoo to throw the whole thing out.

@Gez. Or a devform or a drop box or really anything where everyone in the project can see new content when it's added instead of waiting for shit to be sent to them by whoever.

Last edited by Tarnsman on 02-15-14 at 16:35

Old Post 02-15-14 16:24 #
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Olympus
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I recently started a hell map for TNT, if I end up finishing it I'd like to submit it.

On a side note: end all this and lets get this thing finished. I've been looking forward to the release of this for years, lets not let this set back push the release that far back.

Old Post 02-15-14 16:34 #
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Whoo
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Okay, so now that things have settled down a little bit, here is the rundown of what's going on:


CURRENT EVENTS:

All that's really going on right now is general polish on a few maps. I'm still waiting on some more feedback before I send out info to the mappers explaining what needs to get fixed.

WHAT NEEDS TO GET DONE:

Most maps in the set need a visual overhaul. This isn't as groundbreaking as some people are saying it is. It's simply making the level look better. It takes a few weeks at most to finish. I dumped half of my new MAP10 and overhauled it in a week. Granted it still needs work, but it really doesn't take months to get done.

Some maps however have some layout flaws that need to be addressed, which will be covered when I get the final bits of feedback.

After I've compiled all the feedback, mappers will receive a PM from me with the problems that were found with their map. I'll also upload their map so they know what version we were testing.

WHY MAPS WERE REMOVED/MOVED:

First off, the only maps we removed were Kyka's maps and valkiriforce's MAP31.

Valkiriforce's map was really good, but I agreed with other people on the fact that it was too much of a homage to Evilution's MAP31. We also moved his MAP32 into the MAP17 slot because it really was too good of a map quality-wise to only be seen in a secret level.

For an in-depth explanation on why we removed Kyka's entries, read the past several pages and look for Tarnsman's posts. In short, they were too linear, too mono-colored, and just too fatally flawed in terms of layout design.


KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:


Actually, TNT2 is getting a whole new texture set, so you might wanna wait for that new one to come out. The current one is no longer being used on this project, so I wouldn't bother starting to map with it for the moment.



No, we're still using the compilation you made.

Had you hand-crafted the textures in it I would be obliged to remove it from the project, but it's a compiled resource of other peoples's work.

If however you did make some of them, please PM me the list of which ones you made so I can remove them from the resource wad.

EDIT:


Olympus said:
I recently started a hell map for TNT, if I end up finishing it I'd like to submit it.

On a side note: end all this and lets get this thing finished. I've been looking forward to the release of this for years, lets not let this set back push the release that far back.



Sure, the more maps the better.

And all the drama you've seen here has not hindered progress at all. We were still getting things done over IRC yesterday while this was all going on. This is the last push the project needs to get released.

Old Post 02-15-14 16:43 #
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Tarnsman
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I know he made the DOBWIRE edits and a few crates. There definitely are things Kyka worked on in there, but the majority of the stuff is other people's work (lot of it being Cage).

Old Post 02-15-14 16:50 #
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Olympus
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Whoo said:

Sure, the more maps the better.

And all the drama you've seen here has not hindered progress at all. We were still getting things done over IRC yesterday while this was all going on. This is the last push the project needs to get released. [/B]


Great to hear. It's not going to be a very long map so it shouldnt take long to finish.

Old Post 02-15-14 16:51 #
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purist
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j4rio said:
Hm, Kyka should make new TNT2 project with his maps and every mapper who donated a map here will get to choose between keeping his/her map here or in Kyka's new TNT2. Now that would be worth a popcorn heap.


I read this as being provocative but competitive megawads being back for the first time since the 90s would be cool and even good for the community as long as it doesn't get toxic.

Kyka, I sympathise for your situation as there hasn't been any indication that any of the levels on the original first page list were in danger of being cut. Since all the maps had been through internal playtesting it would be reasonable to assume the maps were accepted as good subject to the inevitable bug fixes and tweaks that come during beta testing. The playesters must feel pretty undermined as well since their hours of playtesting has it seems been over ruled in a matter of a week.

Having said all that, the decision was not necessarily wrong (I haven't played any levels other than my own so I can't judge) just extremely badly timed. Whoo has already taken responsibility for what has been, at best, passive project management so there's no need to dwell any further on it.

This could still work out well for everyone. Two TNT megawads would not be a bad thing. I'd play and possibly submit maps to both.

Old Post 02-15-14 17:03 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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Whoo said:

No, we're still using the compilation you made.

Had you hand-crafted the textures in it I would be obliged to remove it from the project, but it's a compiled resource of other peoples's work.

If however you did make some of them, please PM me the list of which ones you made so I can remove them from the resource wad.



No. It doesn't work like that.

You see, even the textures that aren't actually mine. I still compiled them. This means that I sorted through dozens of texture packs, resource threads from here and the ZDoom forums, random textures from the internet, and many other sources. You see, compiling the textures into a texture pack is just as much my work as the textures and flats that I made myself. And on top of that, I named and organised all the textures and flats, as well as creating many multipatch textures. So no, you can't just use my texture pack and remove the stuff that I actually created. You use nothing. If you want to use the texture pack, you go recompile it yourself. From scratch.

Also, the textures that were done by others, such as the final boss by TeeVee and the Egyptian textures by Cage. I will be taking those with me, seeing as I was the one who invited such people to make the textures in the first place. You had nothing to do with that at all.

In short, go make your own texture pack, you lazy ****. Go invite texture artists to work for you. Go do all the shit that I did for you for yourself. If I do start another project, the texture pack that I made is mine and mine alone. You better be clear about that.

Here is a list of credits for the various sources I used. Y'know, to help you put a new texture pack together for yourself. It will be nice to see you do some actual work for a change.

And if that means that you have to retexture every map from the ground up, not my problem any more.

"For work done on the TNT2 texture pack:
---------------------------------------

-Gez for quality testing and helpful suggestions with the overall TNT2 texture pack.

-Thomas van der Velden for the awesome final boss graphics, as well as several additional patches from scratch, as well as a great titlescreen.

-esselfortium for some additional work on the Episode 1 sky patches.

-Jazzmaster9 for edits done to the new TNT crates (Even though I didn't end up using them, he still did some good work on them. Thanks jazz.).

-FireSeraphim and Cage for additional editing on some of the Egyptian patches/textures (ZDoom.org)

-Gez for finding a number of Egyptian source images, as well as additional work done on the Egyptian textures/patches, as well as technical help with the texture pack itself

-Blox for his awesome work on the 'catface' patch.

-Cage for compiling/editing the egyptian textures.

-All additional texture/patch/flat editing and compilation by me.


For resources used in the TNT2 texture pack:
--------------------------------------------

-Nick Baker for textures:
-From NB_RECOL.wad
-From NB_Flats.wad
-From UDET.wad
-From nb_flats.wad

-Fuzzball Fox for Textures from the "Fuzzy's Random Stuff" thread from the Resources forum at ZDoom.org

-Nigel "Enjay" Rowand for assorted patches used.

-Espi for several patches and flats used. (From Suspended in Dusk). With Respect and Thanks.

-esselfortium for assorted patches used.

-Super Jamie for several recolors

-40oz for textures taken from "We got Texture artists" thread. (Doomworld.com)

-Nick Baker and Submerge for flats taken from the nb5texD2.wad texture pack.

-Scott 'Covaro' Cover and Derek MacDonald for texture taken from 'Wallytex.wad'

-Jimmy91 for textures taken from the 'we got texture artists here' thread (Doomworld.com)

-Nightmare for some really good SILVER and SHAWN based patches.

-Thomas Moeller and Matthias Worch for the 2 skull switch patches taken from MM2.wad

-Kim Malde and Vincent Catalaa for several patches/flats taken from the Alien Vendetta megawad.

-Pawel Zarczynski (aka NMN) for textures taken from nmncorp1.wad

-Roger Ritenour for patches taken from PHOBOS.wad

-NaturalTvventy and Kaiser for Flats taken from the Doom Alpha texture pack.

-DEFCONRAZOR22 for textures used from his Doom Recolored texture pack.

-Russel Pearson for the PLAT based textures taken and modified from DECADE.wad

-ProcessingControl for a number of new patches and flats.

-rf' for the 'redface' patch

-For textures taken from gothictx.wad:

Primary Graphics Artist : Anthony Czerwonka
Secondary Designer(s) : Nick Baker
: Ola Björling
: Matthew Dixon
: Travers Dunne
: Iikka Ker„nen
: Chris Martin
: Michal Mesko
: Andrei Romanov
: Dan Twomey


-WitchHaven Texture pack for several textures used. (WitchTex.wad)

-Realm667.com as the source of most of the new textures/flats packs.

-Doomworld.com as the source of many additional patches/flats."

Last edited by KiiiYiiiKiiiA on 02-15-14 at 17:32

Old Post 02-15-14 17:23 #
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Whoo
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:

stuff






*renames textures*


Okay, I'm done compiling them. And t.v made the boss textures specifically for TNT 2, not you, so we're keeping those as well.

Old Post 02-15-14 17:32 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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*renames textures*

What a load of shit.


So you will do nothing and just use all my work without my permission. Just like the last 3 years, for example. As usual, you won't do anything. You are a lazy backstabbing fucking disgrace.

Go make your own texture pack. Go start with the original tnt textures. Work your way up from there.

Old Post 02-15-14 17:41 #
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alterworldruler
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:
*renames textures*

What a load of shit.


So you will do nothing and just use all my work without my permission. Just like the last 3 years, for example. As usual, you won't do anything. You are a lazy backstabbing fucking disgrace.

Go make your own texture pack.

Who do you think you are Kyka? You used to be cool, we all did mistakes here and there in TNT2's development, things weren't going well at all for a long time, now that it has a chance to actually come out and for people not to rip on it, you dare to try to ruin it by claiming some copyright on textures?

Are you gonna sue us? Of course I care about what is going on, can't say I don't. You said I have attitude issues, look at yourself, destroying yourself with each new post, you'll get banned if you keep acting like a child who think swearing is cool.

TNT2 development will continue, with or without you, deal with it. Look at your new status, quite fitting it is.

Old Post 02-15-14 17:44 #
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Du Mhan Yhu
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:
Stuff


Damn, seems whenever I take the time to read this thread, KYKA is/was on rage mode or threatening to take "his" resources in an effort to slow/halt the project.

Old Post 02-15-14 17:46 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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Wait, what?

If you guys are the talented, hardworking bunch that you claim, you should want to put together a whole new texture pack for your shinynew project, rather than mooching off my work. You said yourself that my work wasn't... top notch.

But ok. Fair enough. You dump years of work, and you think you can just help yourself to whatever is left over? You have no sense of justice dude.

Incidentally Alter, while I have you here, what do you want to do with the three maps that you and I worked on? (Whoo sent me two of your maps forever ago, which I did a bunch of work on. Map 15 was one, don't know what the other mapslot was,) and Map 17.

Let me know.

Old Post 02-15-14 17:51 #
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Whoo
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Replaced.

Old Post 02-15-14 17:52 #
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alterworldruler
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:
Wait, what?

If you guys are the talented, hardworking bunch that you claim, you should want to put together a whole new texture pack for your shinynew project, rather than mooching off my peoples work.

But ok. Fair enough. You dump years of work, and you think you can just help yourself to whatever is left over? You have no sense of justice dude.

Incidentally Alter, while I have you here, what do you want to do with the three maps that you and I worked on? (Whoo sent me two of your maps forever ago, which I did a bunch of work on. Map 15 was one, don't know what the other mapslot was,) and Map 17.

Let me know.

They were already replaced, I replaced with map15 with something far better and map17, short to say didn't meet standards. In short, they are in the trash bin. Also wait did you just say people who did textures are YOUR people?

Old Post 02-15-14 17:54 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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Whoo said:
Replaced.


Replaced.

Replaced what exactly?


alterworldruler said:
They were already replaced, I replaced with map15 with something far better and map17, short to say didn't meet standards. In short, they are in the trash bin. Also wait did you just say people who did textures are YOUR people?


Whatever. If those three maps are in the bin, then I will recycle them.

Also, 'my peoples' - Typo.

Last edited by KiiiYiiiKiiiA on 02-15-14 at 18:01

Old Post 02-15-14 17:54 #
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darkreaver
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Do you guys really think Kyka is over reacting/acting childish/bad? The way Whoo (++?) went on about these changes is absolutely disgraceful and pathetic. I'm not going to bother ellaborating, but IMO Kyka has all the right in the world to write angry/"childish" posts.

That being said; whatever. If my and Deathevos map stays in, let us know what changes needs to be made. When the time comes.

Last edited by darkreaver on 02-15-14 at 18:07

Old Post 02-15-14 18:01 #
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alterworldruler
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:


Replaced.

Replaced what exactly?



Whatever. If those three maps are in the bin, then I will recycle them.

Also, 'my peoples' - Typo.

Guess what, you can't have those maps, they are based off my MAPS, you have no fucking right to use them. See what I did? HOW DO YOU FEEL?

Old Post 02-15-14 18:05 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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alterworldruler said:
Guess what, you can't have those maps, they are based off my MAPS, you have no fucking right to use them. See what I did? HOW DO YOU FEEL?


That's fine dude. I will totally respect your wishes and not use any part of your work in those maps, seeing as you don't want me to.

Do you see what I did there? :)

Also darkreaver. I appreciate your words. Thank you.

Old Post 02-15-14 18:07 #
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Tarnsman
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Serious question. If whoo had come to you kyka and said "look I don't like all of this" and asked you to basically throw out 90% of your work. Would you have not lost your shit? Because I absolutely agree this was handled terribly from a managerial standpoint, but the thing that needs to be addressed here is that regardless of how it was announced, Whoo would have asked for the removal.

Old Post 02-15-14 18:16 #
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j4rio
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Don't you think it's a little too late for that question?

Old Post 02-15-14 18:38 #
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Megamur
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Tarnsman said:
Serious question. If whoo had come to you kyka and said "look I don't like all of this" and asked you to basically throw out 90% of your work. Would you have not lost your shit? Because I absolutely agree this was handled terribly from a managerial standpoint, but the thing that needs to be addressed here is that regardless of how it was announced, Whoo would have asked for the removal.


But you all didn't go to Kyka about it. You all didn't even give him a chance to talk it over, to maybe try to find a happy medium with map redesigns or anything. Heck, you didn't even give him the respect to tell him about the map removal to his face. You just flipped him off (behind his back, of course) and tossed his stuff. Now he's flipping you off in retaliation. I find it hard to get mad at him for removing all his resources because, hey, you all kind of got the ball rolling on that first. He's just finishing the job.

Even if it would've resulted in the same outcome of removing most or all of his stuff, you all acted like sneaky cowards by not even talking to him about it first.

Old Post 02-15-14 20:11 #
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rampancy
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2qpe2em3fk

...and Dethklok is the worlds 7th largest economy.

Old Post 02-15-14 20:12 #
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Tarnsman
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Megamur said:
But you all didn't go to Kyka about it.


Um because I thought he quit the project and because Alter and Whoo are who asked for my feedback not Kyka? Also no one is mad at Kyka for removing his resources. HIS resources he can take, stuff that he didn't make they're keeping, that's pretty reasonable. No one here is arguing that this isn't a glorious fuck up on the managerial side it is. Not running the project for 3 years and not keeping people in the loop is, without a doubt, a massive, MASSSIVE failure on the management side.

Last edited by Tarnsman on 02-15-14 at 20:30

Old Post 02-15-14 20:23 #
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Megamur
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Tarnsman said:
Um because I thought he quit the project and because Alter and Whoo are who asked for my feedback not Kyka? Also no one is mad at Kyka for removing his resources. HIS resources he can take, stuff that he didn't make they're keeping, that's pretty reasonable. No one here is arguing that this isn't a glorious fuck up on the managerial side it is. Not running the project for 3 years and not keeping people in the loop is, without a doubt, a massive, MASSSIVE failure on the management side.


Then I guess you're not to blame about that. Still, things needed to have been discussed more thoroughly. What a shame. Led to a lot of hurt for a lot of people.

Old Post 02-15-14 20:38 #
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Tarnsman said:
Um because I thought he quit the project and because Alter and Whoo are who asked for my feedback not Kyka?

So you didn't bother to peruse the thread dedicated to the project you were brought on for, or ask for the latest situation from the project lead before giving your input on important matters.

Fine, you didn't orchestrate the whole thing - but you can't get off just throwing your hands up at the response.

Old Post 02-15-14 21:43 #
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mrthejoshmon
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And you thought THIS was a good idea? I am completely with Kyka on this one, you should have at least informed him of your intentions before pulling most of his stuff out of the project! And from what I have seen and read, he was also a major contributor to this project... Which you have just cut off by doing this and equally lost a fuck load of progress upon this decision.

But at the end of the day: your call, your fuck up and your mess.

Old Post 02-15-14 22:19 #
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Marcaek
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Sometimes progress can be in the wrong direction, like TNT2 was headed to begin with.

Old Post 02-15-14 23:21 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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Marcaek said:
Sometimes progress can be in the wrong direction, like TNT2 was headed to begin with.


tl;dr to follow. But it pretty much sums up what I want to say, so bear with me.

So if the style and design of my maps is so wrong for this project, then you know what? Fair enough. I had a very clear idea for where I wanted TNT2 to head, and obviously whoo and Alter do not share that vision. But surely anyone can see that the texture pack is an absolutely integral part of the map design. So if my maps are so incredibly wrong for this project, and the texture pack is one of the main things that defines those maps, then why would the TNT2 leadership even want to keep the texture pack? Alter and whoo, you guys clearly want to take this project in a very different direction from where I saw it going. And now you guys are free to do that. In truth I can't see any legitimate reason for you to even want to keep the texture pack.

I have spent two years working on those textures, and frankly, I am proud of that work. Given that the pack is up to version 76, that should say something about the level of work that went into it. I want to credit Megamur in particular, as well as hawkwind, Ragnor, Thomas van der Velden, Cage, Blox, Gez and others for their work and advice on getting that pack to its current point. (All people that I worked with and invited to be involved, for the record.)

I am also going to say at this point, that even though I sent whoo dozens of versions of the pack, did I ever once get any feedback?

Yes I admit, my penchant for getting involved in stupid arguments and saying dumb things has not done me any favors, and a lot of the criticism of me is, frankly, justified. For example, the recent shitstorm about my account banning and me pulling my work from this project, yeah I overreacted pretty thoroughly. But bear in mind that it was only a couple of days later that I freely reinstated my permission to whoo to use all of my work. I acted in good faith. Only to have it all thrown out without anyone bothering to tell me.

So now to the point. Soz for the tl;dr.

There has been enough interest from various people for me to consider launching a separate TNT tribute project. It will not be TNT2 (whoo has the rights to make that sequel,) but it will be a tnt sequel of some sort. Truth is, I feel that I owe it to myself, and I owe it to the many other people that I brought into this project, to make sure that their work gets to see the light of day in a quality manner.

I simply ask that the TNT2 leadership have the common decency to not continue to use my years of work, to which they contributed absolutely nothing, for a project that no longer has my permission to use my texture pack (or my maps, haha) in any form. And if they do, then they should be seen as plagiarists and thieves, so lacking in vision and creativity that they are unable to even put together an original texture set.

edit: Tarnsman. I am seeing that little if any of this was really your fault, so I apologise for some of the things I have implied about you, and also some of the things I said directly to you.

Last edited by KiiiYiiiKiiiA on 02-16-14 at 00:56

Old Post 02-16-14 00:46 #
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Whoo
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Work != Ownership

I will credit you and whoever else helped with the texture pack, but you're not in the position to say you own everything in it.


KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:

There has been enough interest from various people for me to consider launching a separate TNT tribute project. It will not be TNT2 (whoo has the rights to make that sequel,) but it will be a tnt sequel of some sort. Truth is, I feel that I owe it to myself, and I owe it to the many other people that I brought into this project, to make sure that their work gets to see the light of day in a quality manner.



To blow up your ego even more so you can show the world all your god-like maps? Go for it.

EDIT:

And your maps were removed due to design flaws, not their visuals. You still don't seem to understand that after telling you for the past 3 pages.

Old Post 02-16-14 00:56 #
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