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doomman
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how many of those levels are they in megawads, single level wads etc

cause every map 07 is a dead simple look alike etc in megawads etc
Old Post 02-04-10 03:47 #
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WildWeasel
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It'd probably be easier to count the number of Map07's that haven't been Dead Simple-styled. Only Requiem's comes to mind...although it does still use Doom 2's Map07-specific sector actions, it's decidedly not an arena.
Old Post 02-04-10 04:13 #
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vdgg
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Like WildWeasel said... though I wouldn't count Requiem which still is very typical for me - forget about specific action tags, just looking at the symmetry.

The most well known megawad is of course Memento Mori II with a very regular MAP07. Interestingly, MAP32 looks like MAP07 for its shape and use of mancubi and arachnotrons, but again... no 666,667 tags!

Darkening 2

Eternal Doom - uses only Keens and you may even not be aware of their existence.

Vile Flesh

Cleimos2

Obituary

...

? - Can't think of any more right now (I wouldn't count those with 7 levels only, like Ruinbros (Edit: and still it uses those mancubi, I forgot)). As stated above, in 99% WADs it's either "Dead Simple" or a failed attempt of "look, I used the 666/667 tag in an original way".

Last edited by vdgg on 02-04-10 at 05:05
Old Post 02-04-10 04:29 #
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doomman
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cause i noticed that hell revealed 2, scythe 1&2, plutoina 2, comunity chest 3, the 1024 series, alien venetta, doom 2 reloaded etc had dead simple look alike style on map 07
Old Post 02-04-10 04:59 #
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printz
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Final Doom
Old Post 02-04-10 07:35 #
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ArmouredBlood
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The code is there, why not use it? Otherwise it's just another level slot to be used, and unless a megawad is really overflowing with ideas, 28 maps should be plenty to fill (not including 30-32 in addition to 7 because of their nature).
Old Post 02-04-10 08:25 #
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vdgg
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ArmouredBlood said:
The code is there, why not use it?


Because it leads to repetitiveness and artificiality. Eternal Doom's MAP07 is a very rare example of using tag 666 in a unique way.

BTW, this is what I haven't seen yet: a crusher (activated in some way) kills mancubus/arachnotron/keen for further progress.
Old Post 02-04-10 08:54 #
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Graf Zahl
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In most megawads MAP07 is a wasted slot because most mappers have no good idea how to use the special tags yet some unwritten rule seems to imply that any megawad that takes itself seriously has to do a Mancubus/Arachnotron combo. The last 2 projects where it ended in failure were the 2 Claustrophobia 1024 megawads. Both their MAP07 were rather shitty.

Same for MAP30 and the godforsaken Icon of Sin.


Well, I guess we have to thank the Boom developers that it's still the norm. They generalized so much stuff but here, where it really would have counted they didn't do it...
Old Post 02-04-10 09:06 #
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Solarn
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Graf Zahl said:
In most megawads MAP07 is a wasted slot because most mappers have no good idea how to use the special tags yet some unwritten rule seems to imply that any megawad that takes itself seriously has to do a Mancubus/Arachnotron combo. The last 2 projects where it ended in failure were the 2 Claustrophobia 1024 megawads. Both their MAP07 were rather shitty.

I respectfully disagree. I loved both maps.
Old Post 02-04-10 09:10 #
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ArmouredBlood
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vdgg said:
Because it leads to repetitiveness and artificiality. Eternal Doom's MAP07 is a very rare example of using tag 666 in a unique way.

BTW, this is what I haven't seen yet: a crusher (activated in some way) kills mancubus/arachnotron/keen for further progress.


Tell people to stop making base maps with vanilla textures, as they're getting repetitive and artificial ... and I do agree about map7s, it's just that ignoring a map-specific special in a megawad either means the mappers had no good ideas for the special or they're deliberately not using the special, the former being understandable in new mappers, and the latter showing some ego that I better agree with or it'll rub me the wrong way. I haven't played eternal doom's M7 so can't comment ...

That crusher bit gives me an idea ... and not HR-styled at all (really. sorry phml/ggg ;).
Old Post 02-04-10 09:19 #
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Gez
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So, not using a fatso/baby combo in MAP07 because you don't want to make a repeat of Dead Simple is the mark of a tremendous ego?
Old Post 02-04-10 10:23 #
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dew
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cc2 and cc3 might both contain the manc/arach arena, but no way they're traditional map07s. the arenas are at the end of very long levels and they are presented in a fresh manner. the teleport to hell in cc2 is very impressive and stylish and i went 'aHA!' and grinned when the arena appeared in cc3.

scythex has mancs in crowds with other monsters, but no arachs and it's not exactly an arena. tvr! has two arachs, no mancs and it doesn't resemble the map07 theme at all.
Old Post 02-04-10 10:43 #
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Phml
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There's nothing wrong with either using the tags or not. It can be used in a variety of different ways and offer a special gameplay mechanic over the course of a megawad, while also being a cool nod to the original game.

Who cares if it's been done one thousand times before ? There's many more standard maps than Dead Simple maps, and no one seems to complain about that.

It seems to me the negative reaction to Dead Simple remakes is partly a knee-jerk "oh, it's popular, but I'm better than the unwashed masses so I'll speak against it" anyway ; otherwise, you know, it wouldn't be so popular to start with. Some people pride originality way too much over actual quality. That isn't to say you can't have both, but having both will take more effort than just one, and I'd rather play quality maps than original maps.
Old Post 02-04-10 11:53 #
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Graf Zahl
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dew said:
cc2 and cc3 might both contain the manc/arach arena, but no way they're traditional map07s. the arenas are at the end of very long levels and they are presented in a fresh manner. the teleport to hell in cc2 is very impressive and stylish and i went 'aHA!' and grinned when the arena appeared in cc3.



CC2's MAP07 was fantastic - easily the best level in the entire pack in my opinion - its only weak spot was the obligatory MAP07 'requirement' that was forced into it... :P
Old Post 02-04-10 13:14 #
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dew
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Phml said:
Who cares if it's been done one thousand times before ?

while i don't see anything wrong with the rest of your post, i rolled my eyes after reading this. i sure as hell care. i can enjoy the classic theme if it feels ballanced and fun... the castle carnage style in both plutonias and av comes to my mind. on the other hand i still prefer a well thought map07 that doesn't rely on the old scheme and delivers a new memorable twist - the hell port in cc2, the arena rebuilding in cc3, the manco amphitheatre in ksutra or the king of map07s - the maze in memento mori.

just remaking the same old thing does nothing for me. map07 has to be the weakest map in both scythes, remarkable only for the trick jumps that let you avoid the cliche battle. hr07 is a borderline retarded circlestrafe practice and h207 drains away my will to ever play doom again. the unimaginative overcoloured boxes in all three parts of the 1024 series i haven't even bothered playing.

if you aren't stricken by a map07 muse, it's better to create a normal level instead of forcing the scheme upon yourself (tvr, mm2, rq), or just hint some 07 references in otherwise unrelated level (scythex, 32in24diet map07 which is totally awesome btw). mancos on pillars in a rectangle aren't an infinite wellspring of fun, you know.
Old Post 02-04-10 13:59 #
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myk
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WildWeasel said:
although it does still use Doom 2's Map07-specific sector actions, it's decidedly not an arena.
Whether or not it's an arena, it still has to confine the spiders or fatties in a certain area or else play will be obnoxious or broken in nightmare or respawn modes. That's one reason arena type maps are popular for level 7.

vdgg said:
BTW, this is what I haven't seen yet: a crusher (activated in some way) kills mancubus/arachnotron/keen for further progress.
Unless the monsters can snipe at the player from unreachable locations, such as when you start Map29 and get attacked by mancubi and revenants from the fortified hill, you'd just be wasting monster types to do the same thing a switch or walkover line allow. Nonetheless, it could also be a way to make a level using the monsters in many places playable in nightmare mode.

ArmouredBlood said:
The code is there, why not use it?
I agree. They may be pointless in source ports which allow you to do the same effect or variations anywhere and where variation is part of the point of using such an engine, but I'm kind of disappointed when at least one of the tags isn't used in a more classic engine WAD.
Old Post 02-04-10 21:16 #
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Gez
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You can use commander keens in any level, not just MAP32. Therefore, all levels should use commander keens.
Old Post 02-04-10 21:21 #
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vdgg
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myk said:
Unless the monsters can snipe at the player from unreachable locations, such as when you start Map29 and get attacked by mancubi and revenants from the fortified hill, you'd just be wasting monster types to do the same thing a switch or walkover line allow.

We'll see what ArmouredBlood develops. I haven't released a single map in my life, so I'm not an expert, but a crusher could be used as a n-second door trap (adjusting its initial height). If it's very high above a hidden, unreachable mancubus, it can be a 120 second door trap, for example.

Gez said:
You can use commander keens in any level, not just MAP32. Therefore, all levels should use commander keens.

:)
Old Post 02-04-10 21:34 #
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ArmouredBlood
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vdgg said:
We'll see what ArmouredBlood develops. I haven't released a single map in my life, so I'm not an expert, but a crusher could be used as a n-second door trap (adjusting its initial height). If it's very high above a hidden, unreachable mancubus, it can be a 120 second door trap, for example.


That's a very bad idea, relying on what a slaughter map player/mapper makes for a non-slaughter map7 ;P And since I already made a meh M7 for my gothic random maps it'll probably be something vanilla -.- Idea probably has been done before but eh, maybe I'll pull off something interesting, if I ever get around to it. Still want to mess with m9 more ...

There are better ways of making timed traps than using a crusher on a monster with a specific code, like actually using really tall floors that lower, or voodoo dolls with them, although the dolls aren't vanilla.
Old Post 02-04-10 21:42 #
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myk
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Gez said:
You can use commander keens in any level, not just MAP32. Therefore, all levels should use commander keens.
Consider the other side of the coin: Not using it in that level is like not using cacodemons, a certain door type or super shotguns anywhere in the WAD.

What's more, if we push it to such logical extremes, it's akin to not using anything at all, haha!
Old Post 02-04-10 22:47 #
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Gez
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How many megawad feel like they need to have a progression such as this one:

MAP01: introduce imps and former humans, with a hidden chainsaw, a secret rocket launcher, and a secret shotgun
MAP02: introduce sergeants, demons, and the super shotgun
MAP03: introduce commandos, chainguns, spectres, and a hidden backpack
...
and so on.

Would it still be fun if it was always like that? When MAP07 = "That Fatso+Baby level", or MAP15 = "That map with the secret exit", it's just too predictable.
Old Post 02-04-10 23:21 #
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printz
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Maybe the reason people are fed up of the MAP07 design is that both Mancubi and Arachnotrons suck. They're monsters who can damage you dearly if you're not careful, and are a chore to kill, the hide and shoot variety, not very exciting. I don't think MAP07 would have been as bad if it used Archviles or Revenants instead.

EDIT: I don't really understand what myk is talking about in the post above.

What's weirder is that I haven't encountered one PWAD making use of Commander Keens. Of *visible* commander keens with their 666 tag purpose in mind.

Last edited by printz on 02-04-10 at 23:33
Old Post 02-04-10 23:24 #
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myk
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Gez said:
How many megawad feel like they need to have a progression such as this one:
I wouldn't compare imitating the IWAD levels (and all of them?) and using a hard coded feature. The first difference is that a level using the tags doesn't have to stick only to mancubi and arachnotrons as enemies like in the original Map07.

The DOOM games are kind of predictable in general, in any case. Perhaps it's one of their charms, as it narrows play down to certain things, making DOOM more like a game with a set of pieces than some kind of perpetual sandbox environment. If it bothered me, I'd be more into TCs or the more altered or bizarre mods than classic-style WADs, or would just be spending more time playing a variety of other games.

printz said:
What's weirder is that I haven't encountered one PWAD making use of Commander Keens. Of *visible* commander keens with their 666 tag purpose in mind.
Plutonia 2 does it in level 29, and there should be more.
Old Post 02-04-10 23:45 #
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40oz
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myk said:
What's more, if we push it to such logical extremes, it's akin to not using anything at all, haha!


Way ahead of you. I dunno if you've ever played my megawad but it doesnt have any sectors in it. It's not very fun though.
Old Post 02-04-10 23:55 #
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Kagemaru_H
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Gez said:
You can use commander keens in any level, not just MAP32. Therefore, all levels should use commander keens.


Thermal Reactor's gonna have a Keen in a random area, which you shoot to go to the secret level.
Old Post 02-05-10 00:26 #
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ArmouredBlood
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Zomg, I made a map with less than 100 monsters. Yay. I also lost my touch for detailing. Boo. So yeah, have fun in this attempt to use M7 specials slightly differently.

http://wadhost.fathax.com/files/a-map7.zip

P.S. FDAs welcome.
Old Post 02-06-10 00:37 #
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Creaphis
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This dreary old thing uses a Keen, for what it's worth.
Old Post 02-06-10 01:20 #
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ArmouredBlood
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Creaphis said:
This dreary old thing uses a Keen, for what it's worth.


I liked it when I played it a while back. Don't remember the keen though ... maybe I should check it again.
Old Post 02-06-10 01:23 #
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Creaphis
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ArmouredBlood said:
P.S. FDAs welcome.


Delivered.

I had a couple lucky moments. The luckiest would be when the archvile comes down the lift.

Some parts didn't amaze me. When the cacodemons get stuck against the blocking line at the end they're more awkward to fight than dangerous, and the spider mastermind at the end seems like harmless filler.

ArmouredBlood said:
I liked it when I played it a while back. Don't remember the keen though ... maybe I should check it again.


It's hidden in a prison cell with a different sprite. Killing it opens a secret.
Old Post 02-06-10 01:38 #
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vdgg
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My shitty FDA (5 deaths, 11:08)
http://www.speedyshare.com/files/20777831/amap7sda.lmp

I called it "SDA" as the real FDA ended in the first room. You should have warned me about Boom compatibility, with -complevel 2 I couldn't open the door. Quite a funny map I must say.
Old Post 02-06-10 02:06 #
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