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Katamori
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I tried Melon's level.
Good points: some detailing, the feeling of the environment.
Bad points: a bit hard and confused, not realistic, a bit few details.

Although the bad points, it was good work :)

Old Post 11-15-10 12:47 #
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Vaporizer
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I can take both MAP06 and 8. I probably should do an big plot twist on MAP06, because it ends in a text screen.

Old Post 11-15-10 13:13 #
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Cell
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Well, for me, the detail level is just something like "classic", so maybe there are not so huge problems. Anyway, on the route to the blue keycard, those two "POISON"/"RADIATION" signs on the gray texture must be fixed because it seems quite ugly that one second sign is appearing 90%-sunk into the ceiling.
Another problem is behind the starting point. You are able to see one of my sewer grates on the ceiling, but it's not well-aligned to the grid, so pls. fix it.

Old Post 11-15-10 15:09 #
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TheMionicDonut
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I actually have a large lull in activity around the time of MAP11, (Jan 10-16, 2011 If im not mistaken) Furthermore I should have a running computer by that time. I'll take that, if possible.

Old Post 11-15-10 17:53 #
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Melon
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Cell said:
Another problem is behind the starting point. You are able to see one of my sewer grates on the ceiling, but it's not well-aligned to the grid, so pls. fix it.

Whoops. Fixed for the next version.


Cell said:
Anyway, on the route to the blue keycard, those two "POISON"/"RADIATION" signs on the gray texture must be fixed because it seems quite ugly that one second sign is appearing 90%-sunk into the ceiling.

For me, the signs appear in the middle of the wall like they should. I've tested it in both PrBoom+'s software rendering and GZDoom's GL mode. Does anybody else have this problem? I can't reproduce it.

Old Post 11-15-10 17:57 #
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purist
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TheMionicDonut said:
I actually have a large lull in activity around the time of MAP11, (Jan 10-16, 2011 If im not mistaken) Furthermore I should have a running computer by that time. I'll take that, if possible.


Well I was hoping to assign map slots in sequence but I'll make an exception if it gets some new blood into the project - welcome on board!

Furthermore, I've replaced Marnetmar with Vaporizer for MAP06 - agreed that something special should happen in the story at this point. However, I was thinking more of the lines of a "story so far" in the intermission texts for people who don't read text files.

Finally, I've taken MAP09. So there. MAP10 is now the next slot to fill. I know Cell is interested but I'd prefer someone else to step up if possible - purely because Cell already has a map in the second section (MAP07) so I'd prefer him to take MAP12.

Old Post 11-15-10 20:18 #
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Katamori
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MAP10? Well... exactly on 3 JAN I have a motherf*cking literature exam. But im the other hand it's good, because after the exam I should make a map. Don't write me yet, I'll know more thing later. I just said: MAYBE I'll have time to make 10th map slot.

Old Post 11-15-10 20:28 #
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Vaporizer
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The usage of interscreens to tell the story sounds like a good idea.

Old Post 11-15-10 20:30 #
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purist
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I've played Melon's level in PrBoom+ software, ZDoom & Legacy. Here are my thoughts:

I'm not keen on the pitch black start. I know you've done it because of the way Cell's descended into darkness but, while it looked cool disappearing into a dark tunnel in MAP02 it looks odd having just that black corner and I think it would look better if it was 96 brightness right through.

I found ammo very tight at the start with a pistol. I'd either stick a shotgun or chaingun (or sargeant/chaingunner) nearer the start so the player can take care of the demons and imp without using the pistol. Other than that I wouldn't worry about adding any extra ammo as most the fights can be avoided or infighting provoked to save ammo.

The first step into the room with the blue key appears to be the wrong texture - it doesn't match the other steps.

The blue key room itself has a graphical glitch near the light next to the second door where the chaingunner is released from. I think this is related to sector 296 but I can't see exactly what the problem is.

The switch that raises the bridge to the blue key doesn't work in Legacy, which breaks the map.

The radiation sign Cell mentioned is mis-aligned in ZDoom.

For a sewer/underground the map is quite spacious. This in itself is not a bad thing but it means in areas like the large room with the dead marine and the teleporting imps, demons and spectres you can simply run through without threat. Lost souls in this area might add a bit mor menace.

The tunnel, which is the exit, seems to have a raised block at the start and end - this looks odd as you would expect the sewage would be allowed to flow through.

I'm not sure what to do with my map now as yours seems to end in a small pool of water surrounded by mountains! They way you described it I was expecting a larger area. Maybe move back the mountains and put a chasm for water to run through.

These are all the points I can think of that may be worth considering changing. It sounds a little harsh reading back but there were a lot of things I liked too such as the classic design and the level flow (by which I mean you seemed to be directed to the next part of the map visually with each switch you pressed).

I'm looking forward to getting your story. At the moment I'm thinking Doomguy will jump from the pipe and find himself washed up in some mountanious zone but I'll hold out on starting until I get your story in case it offers more clues :-)

Old Post 11-15-10 21:59 #
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Melon
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Thank you for the feedback and bug reporting.


purist said:
I'm not keen on the pitch black start. I know you've done it because of the way Cell's descended into darkness but, while it looked cool disappearing into a dark tunnel in MAP02 it looks odd having just that black corner and I think it would look better if it was 96 brightness right through.

Fair enough, I've removed the blackness.

purist said:
I found ammo very tight at the start with a pistol. I'd either stick a shotgun or chaingun (or sargeant/chaingunner) nearer the start so the player can take care of the demons and imp without using the pistol. Other than that I wouldn't worry about adding any extra ammo as most the fights can be avoided or infighting provoked to save ammo.

You were supposed to push ahead and fight some zombies for weapons, but I've added a dead sergeant with a shotgun 4 shells to the starting room. It's a lot easier to get started now.

purist said:
The first step into the room with the blue key appears to be the wrong texture - it doesn't match the other steps.

Fixed.

purist said:
The blue key room itself has a graphical glitch near the light next to the second door where the chaingunner is released from. I think this is related to sector 296 but I can't see exactly what the problem is.

This glitch has been the bane of my existence, I thought it had magically fixed itself but I just can't seem to get rid of it and don't know why it happens. I've split the linedef in two with an extra vertex, hopefully that will solve the issue.

purist said:
The switch that raises the bridge to the blue key doesn't work in Legacy, which breaks the map.

Eeek. I don't know why this won't work in Legacy, so I've decided to just remove the bridge raising al together and leave the bridge up permanently. I'd raised the key to prevent people with jumping enabled from crossing the gap prematurely anyway, so it's no big loss.

purist said:
The radiation sign Cell mentioned is mis-aligned in ZDoom.

This is another really wierd issue that I don't know how to fix or why it happens. I've fiddled with the texture and moved them to different linedefs, so hopefully it's sorted now.

purist said:
For a sewer/underground the map is quite spacious. This in itself is not a bad thing but it means in areas like the large room with the dead marine and the teleporting imps, demons and spectres you can simply run through without threat. Lost souls in this area might add a bit more menace.

I've added two extra teleport destinations to the exit to that room and put in two more demons into the teleport group to make up for the extra ammo I added earlier. There's no chance of running past it now.

purist said:
The tunnel, which is the exit, seems to have a raised block at the start and end - this looks odd as you would expect the sewage would be allowed to flow through.

It's not actually raised, but the reason why I stopped the sewage from leaking out of the end of the pipe was simple, there's no waterfall texture for the brown slime so I couldn't have it falling out of the end.

purist said:
I'm not sure what to do with my map now as yours seems to end in a small pool of water surrounded by mountains! They way you described it I was expecting a larger area. Maybe move back the mountains and put a chasm for water to run through.

I'll revise the ending area. My thinking behind it was that you would remove the mountain walls at the very edges that you can't see from where I put the level end linedefs. I didn't want the player to see much of the outside area from the pipe because I wanted to give you a bit more freedom in how you went about your level, but I'll revise it to make it a lot better (and see what I can do about the sewage leaving the pipe). I'll have to do it tomorrow though.



Anyway, story:
You begin to wonder if heading into the sewers was a smart idea. The smell is awful and is making you nauseous. A cold breeze blows into your face and brings the smell with it, making you gag.

Wait a minute... a cold breeze? A way out of here may be closer than you thought. You quicken your pace, demons are teleporting directly into the sewer now, and you don't want to be around when the welcoming party brings all of it's friends. You turn the corner inside a snaking tunnel and catch a glimpse of sunlight. A large pipe is belching sewer water into the local river but there's a big metal gate blocking it. You hunt around and find two switches unlocking the barrier and finally make your way outside to the edge of the pipe.

The river outside is flowing fast down a steep rocky mountain side. You hesitate, but quickly make up your mind to jump as demons start teleporting in behind you.

Old Post 11-15-10 23:36 #
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killer ninja
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This looks pretty cool so far! I'll take map 12 if its open, if not anything after that will work.

Old Post 11-16-10 00:06 #
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A.Gamma
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Pretty cool project i can take slot 10.

Old Post 11-16-10 09:41 #
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purist
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Melon said:
Thank you for the feedback and bug reporting.

It's not actually raised, but the reason why I stopped the sewage from leaking out of the end of the pipe was simple, there's no waterfall texture for the brown slime so I couldn't have it falling out of the end.



Don't worry about the lack of brown slime WFALL you can't see if on your map as you exit before you reach the end and I'll work around it on my map. So far I'm planning on Doomguy washing up on a rocky beach or boarding a ship so in either case the outpipe won't be seen. I'm impressed at how quickly you saw to them fixes. Can you upload your new version with the story zipped with it?


killer ninja said:
This looks pretty cool so far! I'll take map 12 if its open, if not anything after that will work.



A.Gamma said:
Pretty cool project i can take slot 10.


Excellent. I've put you both in your requested slots. Next available slot is now MAP13.

Katamori, I know you were semi-interested in MAP10 but since A.Gamma can definitely do it I've given it to him. You're fee to take a later slot if you still want to.

Old Post 11-16-10 12:32 #
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Cell
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I was the one who wanted to take MAP12, but instead, now I'm up to MAP13. Just because I'm not a superstitious one.

Old Post 11-16-10 14:08 #
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Vaporizer
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I could take a third map, 14 is okay for me.

Old Post 11-16-10 14:12 #
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Cell
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Vaporizer said:
I could take a third map, 14 is okay for me.

LOL, how ironic it would be. Once I'd have to continue your story, then you could continue my story twice! :D

Old Post 11-16-10 14:14 #
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Vaporizer
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Btw, cool map Melon. Didn't capture the sewer feel for me, but thats cause I imagine sewers differently... You know, circle-shaped hallways. The automap secret was in a little too easy place, though.

Old Post 11-16-10 14:27 #
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purist
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I've added third maps for Cell, Vaporizer and I. I've took MAP15, which will be a fork in the road since it includes an exit to MAP16 & MAP31. To save you flicking back to page 1 here's the current list of map slots.


Map Slots

MAP01 (01 NOV 10 - 07 NOV 10): Katamori. Escape from the Asylum.
MAP02 (08 NOV 10 - 14 NOV 10): Cell. Storage Basement.
MAP03 (15 NOV 10 - 21 NOV 10): Melon. The Stench of Freedom.
MAP04 (22 NOV 10 - 28 NOV 10): purist. Map name TBC.
MAP05 (29 NOV 10 - 05 DEC 10): magicsofa. Map name TBC.
MAP06 (06 DEC 10 - 12 DEC 10): Vaporizer. Map name TBC.

MAP07 (13 DEC 10 - 19 DEC 10): Cell. Map name TBC.
MAP08 (20 DEC 10 - 26 DEC 10): Vaporizer. Map name TBC.
MAP09 (27 DEC 10 - 02 JAN 11): purist. Map name TBC.
MAP10 (03 JAN 11 - 09 JAN 11): A.Gamma. Map name TBC.
MAP11 (10 JAN 11 - 16 JAN 11): TheMionicDonut. Map name TBC.

MAP12 (17 JAN 11 - 23 JAN 11): killer ninja. Map name TBC.
MAP13 (24 JAN 11 - 30 JAN 11): Cell. Map name TBC.
MAP14 (31 JAN 11 - 06 FEB 11): Vaporizer. Map name TBC.
MAP15 (07 FEB 11 - 13 FEB 11): purist. Map name TBC.
MAP16 (14 FEB 11 - 20 FEB 11): YOU?!? Next available slot.

Looking pretty good now isn't it? Next slot to fill starts Valentine's Day...

Old Post 11-16-10 19:38 #
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Cell
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Cool! Anyway, have you started MAP04 off so far?

Old Post 11-16-10 20:42 #
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purist
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No, not yet. I was planning to but I'm waiting for Melon to upload his fixed version of MAP03 as he's revising his ending. He said he'd do it today. I'll get started on MAP04 tomorrow if he does.

At the moment it's a coin toss between DoomGuy passing out in the river and getting washed up on some rocky shore or him swimming to and boarding an un-manned cargo ship.

I feel as though I need to give a bit more direction to the story too. So far he's just been running. It's obvious where from but not where to. Now he's escaped the hospital I need to give some thought about where he would plan to go and why... I've got some ideas but it all depends on where I set the map.

Old Post 11-16-10 20:55 #
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Melon
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Sorry purist, I had hoped to upload this a few hours ago but I've been debugging that friggin' radiation sign on the wall that messes up with ZDoom's software renderer. I finally fixed it by just making an indent in the wall so the texture was lying on a shorter wall. Finally, I'm happy that my map is finished:

www.kieranmillar.com/doom/sewersv2.zip


Vaporizer said:
Btw, cool map Melon. Didn't capture the sewer feel for me, but thats cause I imagine sewers differently... You know, circle-shaped hallways. The automap secret was in a little too easy place, though.

I'm not going to change the automap secret, but I will keep that in mind. I wasn't too sure about how hard people would find some of the secrets, perhaps it was a mistake to put the automap in the easiest to find secret (as it gives away the other secrets)?

Old Post 11-16-10 21:24 #
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purist
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Vaporizer, I've playtested your fixed WAD but I still found some issues with it...

1. The blue key switch is still broken in Legacy. I don't know a lot about voodoo doll scripts but I think that's what is causing the problem. I'm not sure why the switch has such a complicated method in any case. Making the switch lower floor to lowest floor, using raised floors instead of lowered ceilings for the hitscanner trap 'doors' and giving them all the same tag would achieve the same end result without compromising port compatibility.

2. The above no longer 'breaks' the map in Legacy as you can grab the blue key without the pillar lowering. Though this is obviously not your intention. Moving the blue key back a bit further or raising the pillar more might fix.

3. I started replacing the FLOOR4_8 flats where you've used them as the bottom step thinking they were a mistake then it occured to me you might have used them on purpose. I think it looks a little haphazard having one oddly textured step but I've restored them since it's a matter of taste, not a bug.

4. The open area with the teleporting demons and imps can still be dodged (in ZDoom I somehow did it without waking them all) but it's much better. I wouldn't change it any more.

5. Your ending view is much improved but it no longer matches your story. Your story ends: The river outside is flowing fast down a steep rocky mountain side. You hesitate, but quickly make up your mind to jump as demons start teleporting in behind you. The river is now more like a stagnant swap, which is about level with the pipe - certainly not flowing fast down a steep rocky mountain side and DoomGuy would need only to step not hesitate and jump into the water. Was the floor meant to be lowered in this area??

The new ending is also making me rethink my map. Based on the ending you gave in your story I had two ideas for the start of MAP04. One was DoomGuy hitting the water unconcious and waking at the shore of some remote rocky land, the other was him struggling against the river current before finding and boarding an abandoned ship. Obviously both would seem a little ridiculous now!

Please can you look at points 1, 2 & 5 (3 & 4 are just notes really) and let me know what's happening with the ending (either the story, map or both need an edit) so I can start my map? Please, don't think you need to tailor your end to suit me though. As long as your map is consistent with your story.txt you can leave the rest to me.

Old Post 11-16-10 23:05 #
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Melon
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You posted just before I was going to go to bed, time for some quick fixes!

purist said:
Vaporizer

Hah

purist said:
1. The blue key switch is still broken in Legacy. I don't know a lot about voodoo doll scripts but I think that's what is causing the problem. I'm not sure why the switch has such a complicated method in any case. Making the switch lower floor to lowest floor, using raised floors instead of lowered ceilings for the hitscanner trap 'doors' and giving them all the same tag would achieve the same end result without compromising port compatibility.

It was originally more complicated because I wanted the walkway into the centre platform to rise along with the key lowering and the closets opening all with one switch. Given that I'm no longer raising the bridge I might as well remove the voodoo script and implement this fix, I'd like my map to work in as many ports as possible. *sigh*

purist said:
2. The above no longer 'breaks' the map in Legacy as you can grab the blue key without the pillar lowering. Though this is obviously not your intention. Moving the blue key back a bit further or raising the pillar more might fix.

Dammit Legacy stop breaking things! The key is pretty much smack bang in the middle of the pillar, so I've tried a double-whammy fix of raising the pillar 8 units and making the pillar a bit wider. The textures don't look so good on the pillars now but it's better than the map being broken. Raising the height of the ceiling in the room as a whole is a no-no given the way I've implemented some of the textures surrounding the outer walls, can't have that green slime glow from the bottom appearing at the top of the walls.

purist said:
3. I started replacing the FLOOR4_8 flats where you've used them as the bottom step thinking they were a mistake then it occured to me you might have used them on purpose. I think it looks a little haphazard having one oddly textured step but I've restored them since it's a matter of taste, not a bug.

It was intentional but I changed the one you mentioned last time because I agreed it looked better. I've gone ahead and changed the rest because it does look a bit better (and I also trust your taste over mine when it comes to doom map detailing).

purist said:
4. The open area with the teleporting demons and imps can still be dodged (in ZDoom I somehow did it without waking them all) but it's much better. I wouldn't change it any more.

I've tweaked it ever so slightly but it's no big concern to me. Running past them tends to result in some of them following you and then they get in the way later.

purist said:
5. Your ending view is much improved but it no longer matches your story. Your story ends: The river outside is flowing fast down a steep rocky mountain side. You hesitate, but quickly make up your mind to jump as demons start teleporting in behind you. The river is now more like a stagnant swap, which is about level with the pipe - certainly not flowing fast down a steep rocky mountain side and DoomGuy would need only to step not hesitate and jump into the water. Was the floor meant to be lowered in this area??

The new ending is also making me rethink my map. Based on the ending you gave in your story I had two ideas for the start of MAP04. One was DoomGuy hitting the water unconcious and waking at the shore of some remote rocky land, the other was him struggling against the river current before finding and boarding an abandoned ship. Obviously both would seem a little ridiculous now!


What happened here was that I made it fairly steep, but then realised that the water floor texture doesn't have a corresponding waterfall texture like the brown slime! So I flattened it out, but of course you can't see it from the pipe anyway so that was a mistake. I've made it steeper. Added a few extra rocks too for added danger.

Hopefully this fixes any serious outstanding issues. I'm super tired so those changes weren't really tested much and I give you my permission to alter the level in any way you like to iron out any remaining issues (hopefully there are none). I'm happy for you to change my level to make it more consistent with the rest of the wad/story/etc. if you so wish. Good luck with your level!

www.kieranmillar.com/doom/sewersv3.zip

Old Post 11-16-10 23:59 #
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Cell
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Looks better now. I reckon you've used a special effect on that "lift up the bridge AND open the doors" switch.

Old Post 11-17-10 19:06 #
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purist
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Melon's (not Vaporizers - sorry!) map looks good to go now. I've added it to the compiled progfic.wad, zipped it up with the story.txt and uploaded to the link in the second post. I've stopped uploading individual levels - seems to be no good reason to do so.

In MAP01 I've also moved a couple of medikits slightly that were floating in Legacy and have altered the switches that activate the secret so both have to be hit for it to work.

In MAP02 I've fixed two small sectors that had no flats, which caused a crash in Legacy. There was a small triangle in the lift and the hidden sector behind the grate in the sewer.

Melon's fixes in MAP03 seemed to clear all the issues raised so I've left it as it is.

I've decided MAP04 will start after DoomGuy succumbs to the river and wakes beached on a rocky shore. I've got faint ideas of a story - think I will end with DoomGuy finding a port where an abandoned freight ship carrying a curious cargo is docked. I'm calling it Washed Up.

Old Post 11-17-10 22:46 #
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TheMionicDonut
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Cool Beans. If all this goes well I may grab a map after my spring semester ends...should be around the last five by then...

Old Post 11-18-10 06:01 #
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Katamori
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Good idea, purist :) I want to see it :)

it looks more interesting than previous concepts

Old Post 11-18-10 10:15 #
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Cell
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Nice to know that we're through the first two difficult nodes: the starting-off and the filling of the "leftover" slots. Something has to do with a relief! :) Now, what. Washed up sounds pretty cool and I think you should go on with that "cargo ship" idea, too.

Old Post 11-18-10 15:21 #
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Death Egg
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Could I possibly take MAP16? That week happens to be the week of my birthday, so I figure, hey, why not?

Old Post 11-18-10 18:28 #
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purist
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Yes, TrueDude you can have that week (welcome to the project) but I'm (over)thinking what map to give you.

I'm confusing myself with this but I'm thinking it's better to do MAP31 and MAP32 before MAP16. Correct me if I'm wrong...

MAP16 can be entered from either MAP15, MAP31 and MAP32 but the player will start in the same place on MAP16 regardless of which they enter from. Therefore MAP15, MAP31 & MAP32 should all have common endings.

When I make MAP15 I will make an exit for MAP16 and MAP31. TrueDude, when you make MAP31 you will need to make the start continue from one of the exits on MAP15 (choose any as I can always switch the exit types around). You will also need to make 2 exits - one of which will need to be similar to the exit on MAP15 you don't follow from. That way it will make sense where you start on MAP16 regardless as to whether you get there from MAP15 or MAP31.

Whoever makes MAP32 will need to follow on from your MAP32 exit and will need their exit to MAP16 to be similar to mine on MAP15 and your on MAP31.

In effect then this project will not have any secret exits. Just a fork in the road on MAP15 and MAP31.

Old Post 11-18-10 20:12 #
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