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purist
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That's great, I'd like to have the first full beta uploaded by the end of January if possible or at the very least comprehensive status updates from those still working by then.

Old Post 12-30-11 11:54 #
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Cell
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I PM'd the download link of the new MAP26, but I didn't mention the little detail that I need someone to compose a music for it. The name (Pride of the Descent) and the appearance should both count, but more the latter, if you don't know of a perfectly fitting music.

Old Post 01-02-12 14:25 #
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purist
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I'll play tonoght hopefully and PM you feedback. You might want to link to the download in the thread to in case anyone else wants to playtest or compose music for you. I'm not the best person to advise on music selection.

Old Post 01-02-12 16:57 #
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Cell
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Download MAP26 here

Old Post 01-02-12 17:44 #
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Melon
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Cell said:
Download MAP26 here

I thought I'd give this a playthrough. FDA if you're interested. Beat it first time but got to very very low health on a few occasions.

I think this level is a vast improvement over the other on all counts and I enjoyed it. I have no major complaints at all, and the only bad things I can say about it are small nitpicks.

  • There were a few times when I was forced to pick up an unavoidable medikit that I'd rather not pick up. It wasn't a huge deal because health is plentiful in this level, but I'd have felt slightly better if I could have avoided it.
  • There may be a bit too much health in the level but that fact served me well enough on my own playthrough with some of the horrible mistakes I made so I guess I'd rather not complain haha.
  • You pick up a fair amount of resources right at the end of the level, not a problem but comes across as a bit odd when playing the level on its own. You get a rocket launcher with 10 rockets, a soulsphere and blue armour for a single archvile and then the map suddenly ends. Again not really an issue just felt a bit strange to me.

Old Post 01-02-12 19:25 #
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magicsofa
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purist said:

Is it a good time for a progress update from NoneeLlama, magicsofa and Cell?



I have been picking away at map32 recently.

I still haven't started the final section, but I created the basic blood river tunnel thing, fixed/changed some small things, etc

I noticed however you were talking about changing the keen sprite, because I decided to use keens for that cyberdemon battle. What are you changing it to? I can find a different way to have the player progress, i.e. using a voodoo doll script. Just thought it would be a funny homage to the original map32

Anyway here is the updated map:

http://www.mediafire.com/?oqz6d1lz23cxry6

I still haven't implemented difficulty settings so unless you really want to slog through the enemies I would recommend cheating or using -nomonsters.

Old Post 01-02-12 21:15 #
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purist
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magicsofa said:
I noticed however you were talking about changing the keen sprite, because I decided to use keens for that cyberdemon battle. What are you changing it to? I can find a different way to have the player progress, i.e. using a voodoo doll script. Just thought it would be a funny homage to the original map32



Thanks for the update I won't have time to play it today but I will soon. Don't change your Keen plans. I don't know for sure if I will change the sprite. The plan was to try to make it look like hadephobic inmates from the asylum. It should be clear they need to be killed even if I change the sprite.

@Cell:

I played your map and watched Melon's demo. I'll post more notes when I've opened the map in Doombuilder and had a proper look but for now I'll just say that I agree with Melon's points and think it's a good map. It maybe needs only small adjustments to go in the WAD relating to it being quite easy for so late in the Megawad. Don't do anything drastic yet, though. I'll elaborate probably tomorrow.

Old Post 01-02-12 22:34 #
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Cell
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Shit! I've forgotten the Co-op starts.

Old Post 01-03-12 14:51 #
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purist
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Right then, notes for MAP26.

I'll say again that I much prefer this level to the original MAP26. The faults with that map do not reappear here. No ZDoom-ism, ammo frugality or extensive use of claustrophobic areas here. There were times when I felt penned in but it never felt unfairly restrictive and rarely affected monsters. There was no snagging on decoration things either. The issues I did find are minor and easy to fix, I will list them below:

Difficulty

This is the main thing for me. I thought the difficulty was quite enjoyable in the sense that it was neither frustratingly difficult or so easy you could sleepwalk through. However, it was too easy for MAP26 (it feels about right for around MAP21). Melon and I both did it in our first attempt in UV on pistol start. Whereas Melon came close to death a few times I only slipped up once in the double mancubus area. I took damage but there's simply so much health that mistakes are hardly punished. I also never found any secrets to help me out. Bear in mind also that the player could have every weapon (at least every one except the BFG) by the time they get to MAP26, which will make the parts Melon did struggle with (particulary the revs at the start) much easier to handle.

My suggestion to fix is:

1. Replace every medikit with a stimpack in UV, except for in the outside area (to give players starting low on health a fair chance) and the manc fight near the blue key (both Melon and I lost a lot of health there).

2. Change the blue armours for green.

3. Change the soulsphere and second bezerk for medikits.

That should put the player on their toes :-)

Superflous Items

As Melon said those items at the end of the map aren't really needed. It's overkill for 1 AV and MAP27 re-stocks the player at the start anyway. You could move the RL to earlier map and remove the rest.

The secrets were a little overpowered. The Computer Map is OK but I'd swap the invulnerability for something weaker and either change the megasphere or swap it around for the BFG in the harder to find secret. These aren't dealbreakers but it makes sense to me.

Misc

The story might need tidying up a little gramatically but is generally sound. The only thing that I don't agree with is where you state you're in "actual Hell" as the player is in Hell from MAP21.

Co-op starts please!

I can't really advise on music, hopefully someone else can.

Hopefully these changes won't take long and it can join MAP17 in the new updated progfic.wad.

Old Post 01-03-12 18:06 #
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Cell
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purist said:
Hopefully these changes won't take long and it can join MAP17 in the new updated progfic.wad.

Sure they didn't. Here you go.

Anyway, on my blatantism "actual Hell" I meant that it's the first time you can walk under the clear sky. MAP21-MAP25, as far as I'm concerned, didn't feature skies at all (though I haven't seen MAP24 yet!...)

Old Post 01-03-12 20:27 #
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NoneeLlama
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I'll just want to let you guys know that I'm finished with the map, but unfortunatly, my laptop died in the holidays. Fortunatly the hard drive can be saved, so it will be a matter of time before I can post the final version of MAP18.

Old Post 01-03-12 21:17 #
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Grain of Salt
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Last edited by Grain of Salt on 06-01-12 at 16:50

Old Post 01-03-12 22:07 #
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Cell
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Grain of Salt said:

MAP25 has lots of sky.


But you're not entirely outside, that's the point.

Old Post 01-04-12 14:39 #
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Grain of Salt
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Last edited by Grain of Salt on 06-01-12 at 16:51

Old Post 01-04-12 18:15 #
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Cell
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Jerk. You should have shown me what you're mapping instead of Scotch Bonnet. Now that's not even certain that my start would go for your exit, damnit.

Old Post 01-04-12 18:17 #
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Grain of Salt
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Last edited by Grain of Salt on 06-01-12 at 16:51

Old Post 01-04-12 18:22 #
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Cell
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Grain of Salt said:
And I did mention it a while back.

I've seen this, seeing also that you're going to rename it.

The exit is identical, down to every vertex and sidedef.

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6964/screenshotdoom201112270.png
So is the MAP26 start! I've insisted on keeping the same hellpatterns on the ceiling and also having the floor changed to lava.

Hairstring accurate geometry!! :D

Old Post 01-04-12 18:26 #
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Katamori
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Typical cellist work. Nice. :D

Old Post 01-04-12 22:25 #
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Cell
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Nah... anyone? I've spent one afternoon doing it, and then the whole weekend would go for playtesting.

Old Post 01-06-12 19:35 #
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purist
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No need to panic yourself Cell, things are often happening behind the scenes and you should know by now that I often save my posts until I have a lot to write about :-). I've played your newest version of MAP26 and offer up a demo, on the off-chance you have PRBoom+ fixed up now - or in case anyone else wants to watch.

In the demo you'll see I died once in the start area, against those revs Melon also had trouble with. Ironically, the only part of the level where difficulty was not increased. After this I don't really have any moments of discomfort, partly due to knowing what is coming next and playing cautiously. I didn't use any secrets to aid me and still finished 100% health and armour, around 50 shells, 200 bullets, 200 cells and 0 rockets IIRC. So health and ammo is still abundant.

Thanks, for implementing my suggestions. As it stands I'm satisfied to include it in the megawad, but there are still tweaks that I think might improve gameplay some.

  • The cacos that warp outdoors caused Melon a bit of trouble but they've been tame in both my playthroughs. My thoughts are that the danger would be increased if either the grate (and impassible linedef) was removed from the window or the red door was changed to open stay to give the cacos a way into the library and thus increase the urgency of taking them out. On the other hand, the library might be too tightly built to make the fight fun. I'd say it's worth a try but if it doesn't playtest well feel free to veto this suggestion.
  • It feels like the RL and PL should be swapped around because you get to the PR first but don't need to use it until after you pick up the RL. Up to you though. I could afford to use both as luxury weapons and anyone not playing pistol start will already have both so it doesn't matter if you don't want to change it.
  • I must say that the two barons near the bezerk are quite annoying to fight. They are not a threat but they are in a tight area too awkward to enjoy fighting in, their HP is too high to at least do it quick and they never seem to leave the area. Since the fight is optional you can leave it if you like but I'd change the monster, widen the area to make some more space and/or remove the damaging sectors there to allow the player more movement.
  • There's too many cells (7 small packs and 2 big ones that are not in secrets). Not only is it overkill for this level it will also affect MAP27. In my estimation you could replace the two big ones with small ones and not cut the player short.
  • With all the cells you have, the AV at the end is easy pickings. The two imps that are with him actually make it easier because he gets distracted resurrecting them. I suggest either replacing the imps with harder monsters (revs or HK's maybe) or deleting them and adding a second AV
  • It could still do with new music. I've not heard anything from whitedamp or PRIMEVAL lately so it might be better sourcing music from other WADs (that gives permission) rather than relying on someone to make one, though you never know.

The above are all optional but they are quick fixes and worth at least trying and playtesting before dismissing. If you try them and think they don't improve the level I'll go along with that but if I'm comfortably beating the map in UV from pistol start without secrets it's probably still a little too easy for MAP26. Let me know what you think - other playtesters are also welcome as always.

@NoneeLlama: Sorry about the laptop but at least you've not lost your work. Until you can upload it, how about posting a changelog of what you've done since the last draft?

@Grain of Salt: I like that pic and I'm looking forward to your MAP25 remake. Any idea of when it will be done?

Old Post 01-06-12 22:51 #
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Grain of Salt
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Last edited by Grain of Salt on 06-01-12 at 16:51

Old Post 01-07-12 07:16 #
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purist
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OK. I've played magicsofa's MAP32. It's shaping up to be a good level. Here's some premature notes - I hope they're helpful:

32.1 - love that conveyor belt start. The marine is dead in MAP32 so I guess you've taken the route that the demons used the distress call as bait in a trap.

32.2 - The level looks nice in a chaotic-tech kind of way but I expected it to be more Hell based after the exit in MAP31. This isn't necessarily a problem as long as it's accounted for in the story text.

32.3 - I know you're still balancing monsters but I will still say that the are you are warped in to start with is a bit too hitscan heavy before you get chance to find any cover. If you're unlucky you can lose most your health in a few seconds.

32.4 - You can get stuck in the secret with the blur sphere and backpack as there's no switch down there to bring the lift back down.

32.5 - You can also get stuck in the tech green area if you fall off those plinths that act as steps.

32.6 - Is it possible to survive the part where you teleport into an area completely surrounded by barrels? I was on God Mode by this point.

32.7 - Having seen the keen dolls in action I'm still of the opinion that they should stay. I still like the idea of changing the sprite - as long as it's obvious they need to be killed I think it will be alright.

32.8 - I take it the hole in the floor represents the end of the map? Don't forget it leads to MAP16 and that you need to "pass through" the circular room of MAP15 through the Western DOOR3 then the rocky area to the elevator. You don't need to use the same monsters. Let me know if you're not sure what I mean.

OK, I hope that helps some. Thanks for sharing and best of luck finishing up.

Old Post 01-07-12 15:21 #
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Cell
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3rd version of MAP26
I've lowered difficulty in the two dark gray Baron areas and raised in the AV area. Also, swapped bulk cells for small ones. The window which has the BIGDOOR7 decoration while shut is now able to be passed through by both the player and monsters, and the red door is W1-stay.

However, I didn't swap the RL and the PR, because I've figured out that you may have died/had a difficulty in the double Mancubus treat area because you ignored the PR and went for the challenge of killing the fatsos with the SSG. I wanted to make things easier in that area by obtaining the PR. Cover (the railing METAL 3-shaped sector) is given enough. I don't see your point, but never mind. Other thing is that you're having those weapons by then, as well as every other "normal Megawads" whose difficulty is equal with or slightly below/above the difficulty of the original Doom2 PWAD.

Old Post 01-07-12 18:39 #
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purist
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Cheers Cell, that's the one. It can go in the megawad for me now.

For info, I didn't take damage in the manc area because of ignoring the plasma. I just stupidly tried to fight them together instead of finding cover. Now I know they are coming I hide behind the metal and use the SSG on them one at a time. I reliably don't lost any health this way. I use the PR on the Baron guarding the RL (why I wanted it the other way around), the second PE, the last baron and whatever I have left on the AV and last revs. In the new version it might be better saving cells for the AV unless you find the secrets as the revs make it more of a handful and there are plenty of mid-tier monsters to soak up ammo if it breaks free and does some serious rezzing :-)

Have your IWAD to work with PRBoom+ yet? I'll upload a new UV max demo for you if you have.

EDIT: I still plan to upload a new version of the beta at the end of January. Presently, MAP17 and MAP26 are both added from the previous version plus MAP33 (alternative MAP26). The only maps missing so far are MAP18, MAP24, MAP30 and MAP32. Hopefully a couple of these will be added before the end of the month.

Last edited by purist on 01-07-12 at 23:11

Old Post 01-07-12 22:57 #
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Cell
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purist said:
EDIT: I still plan to upload a new version of the beta at the end of January. Presently, MAP17 and MAP26 are both added from the previous version plus MAP33 (alternative MAP26). The only maps missing so far are MAP18, MAP24, MAP30 and MAP32. Hopefully a couple of these will be added before the end of the month.

Just try to save the MAP33 slot. After making the changements to maps 02, 07, 13 and 19, I'm actually going to map the Metal Fortress for MAP33 which was actually mentioned as the alternate "asylum" for the ones who are suffering from Hadephobia, but couldn't make itself into any maps. I didn't mention it valinly that you should save the "failed MAP26" for MAP34. I'm more than sure that Vaporizer have deleted his alternatively really brutal MAP06, so it can't make the MAP33 slot, but I'm progressing for it!

Old Post 01-08-12 13:57 #
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purist
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Save Metal Fortress for Hadephobia 2: Hadephilia :-p

Seriously, if there's enough alternative versions (I've heard of alternatives to MAP18, MAP20, MAP25 and MAP30 as well as MAP26) that people want to keep in the wad I could make a ZDoom bonus episode like the No Hope For Peace episode of PCCP.

Old Post 01-08-12 16:16 #
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Cell
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Or 1024CLAU2: The Mystery Of Too Many Maps :D

Well, Hadephobia isn't over by some spaceships that suddenly turn into huge, rectangular, unbarren rooms of FLOOR5_4 :P

Old Post 01-08-12 18:01 #
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Vaporizer
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Cell said:

I'm more than sure that Vaporizer have deleted his alternatively really brutal MAP06, so it can't make the MAP33 slot, but I'm progressing for it!


I have it, it's somewhere in my Doom folder.

Old Post 01-08-12 18:55 #
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Melon
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Sorry for taking so long on my MAP30 Round 2 : MAP30er. I've said to purist a few times now that it "won't be long now!" and then proceeded to not work on it for a while. I've been doing bits and bobs here and there but am finding some inspirational problems. It's something about making hard maps, I just get hung up on making them interesting.

Hopefully posting this in public will encourage me to finish off the damn thing. I was doing so well for this project when I had an actual week deadline over me, maybe I'll try to enforce that on myself.

Old Post 01-08-12 22:19 #
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purist
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Don't worry Melon. I won't pressure you too much, just make sure the updates keep coming. If you need an opinion or want someone to bounce ideas off feel free to PM me or use the thread.

I'm more worried about MAP24 to be honest. I've not heard anything from A.Gamma for weeks - when he said he was about done.

Old Post 01-09-12 20:48 #
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