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darkreaver
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Posts: 1938
Registered: 05-08


edit: am I the only one who cant see the screenshots?

here are direct links just in case

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/...om201101091.png
http://img524.imageshack.us/f/scree...m201101091.png/

Hello. I made my first speedmap a couple of days ago. Needed a break from my other mapping stuff.

-Its in Boom-format
-Stock textures only, and a very limited amount of them (I think I used about 12 different textures)
-Spent 3 hours (added a few monsters after that) (thats pretty ULTRA FAST for me!)
-Tried to keep it under 100 sectors, ended up on 127
-Very much inspired by HR2
-Tried to make it a pretty hard and brutal map

WELL, I need someone to give it a try. I THINK there should be enough ammo and health. TBH I havent finished it as it is now. I made it, played it, finished it. Found it too easy, so I added a few archies to fuck you up, and I havent completed it without IDDQD after that, but hey, I kinda suck compared to some of you guys here.

I`m thinking I`ll balance it a bit better after some feedback. As it is now might be UV, ooor maybe HMP, we`ll see. Anyway, I`ll add skill settings after a little feedback.

It`s called "Ancient Hatred" and its map01 (added a new midi).

http://www.mediafire.com/?iq6enz7hu0h219f

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=1MW203ZO

http://img524.imageshack.us/i/screenshotdoom201101091.png

http://img337.imageshack.us/i/screenshotdoom201101091.png

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/7877/screenshotdoom201101091.png

Last edited by darkreaver on 01-09-11 at 10:42

Old Post 01-09-11 09:59 #
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Melon
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I also suck but I thought I'd do an fda of my first 13 minutes-ish of gameplay. Behold how terrible I am. I think there's some funny deaths in there, in sort of a "oh dear I'm so bad" kind of way.

I'm don't think I even made it to the half-way point, but from the bits I did see, I think it's fine ammo and health-wise, I'm just awful. I never saw a single key but I did get the BFG. I assume it's in that room somewhere? I'll have to try again later.

I really enjoyed it, will play again. I'll try to complete it at some point.

Old Post 01-09-11 10:49 #
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DeathevokatioN
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This is a VERY fun map!

Got up to 150 kills or something until I used some very clever tactics that ended up with me killing myself with a rocket launcher against a wall.

Cute music as well. :)

Old Post 01-09-11 11:29 #
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Phml
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Gave it a go. Doesn't complete, multiple deaths and about 150 kills on the latest attempt.

I liked the lightning, texture usage (that techwall into the rocks looked pretty good), atmosphere, music, and that you gave strong weapons right away.

I disliked the bullshit ambushes without any warning - teleporting in front of a horde, stuck in a small sector and having to wait for it to go slowly back up while a cybie is roaming up (I can't see that second one being remotely fun ever, whether the cybie shoots you or not while the floor is going up is luck-based), and the general overuse of teleporting archviles to resurrect hordes. That said, it felt like a HR2 map (which I also strongly disliked).

Old Post 01-09-11 13:01 #
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gggmork
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Your punishment for making a map is having to watch hours and hours of boring FDAs, ha ha ha. Just kidding, don't watch mine, its more ass than there is ass (the fda, not the map).
http://www.speedyshare.com/files/26...red-fda-ggg.lmp
I tend to give a FDA about 2 semi solid tries (= fails) thinking "ok, THIS time it'll be easy. I'll just safely and tediously kill all the idiots from a distance, lather rinse repeat" *die* *do it again with a faster route idea since I know what will happen* *die* From then on, its just fail after fail with no patience whatsoever, and monsters hit me in the assingest ways at the assingest times. When that happens I just point the screen at the monster and look at it awhile like... are.. you.. fucking.. serious? Then try to give it a slow painful death by punching it, or turn in circles for no reason *die*

Anyway it looks like it could be fun for a NON FDA run, though it suffers from "oh here's a door; you can't open it" syndrome (I would make such doors a wall every time personally) and that lift tends to go right up into the clutches of unavoidable death; I'd maybe put a lift on each side instead (wherever enemies don't tend to bunch up).

Old Post 01-09-11 16:57 #
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Solarn
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I like it very much. I died a lot, but it was a lot of fun and it never felt too cramped or unfair. Although I did get tired of traps that teleported Arch-Viles behind me.

Old Post 01-09-11 17:27 #
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darkreaver
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Hehehe, yeeeah those archies might get pretty tiredsome for most players. Personally, I like them, even though I get that "noooo wtf?? pleeeease!" feeling :P

The cyber wont shoot you or even see you if you stand on one of the sides on the lift, hehe.
What I was worried about was the final area. I`m having some real problems there.
I`ll try to record a demo tonight, but what to enter in "run" again?

prboom-plus.exe -complevel ? -record xxx.lmp or something?

EDIT: yes, its really not suited for FDAs. Someewhat unfair situations sometimes ruins that.

Old Post 01-09-11 17:56 #
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[WH]-Wilou84
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darkreaver said:
I`ll try to record a demo tonight, but what to enter in "run" again?

prboom-plus.exe -complevel ? -record xxx.lmp or something?


"-complevel 9" seems to be a good choice for Boom-compatible maps.

As for this one, I liked it :)
The traps are interesting and varied. To me the only "unfair" fight was that elevator part with the Cyberdemon. But after a few tries I made it to the end.
My only complaints are the lack of secrets and the linearity of the map ( both those problems could be solved by adding a few optional areas with secrets in them ).
Very good work !

Last edited by [WH]-Wilou84 on 01-09-11 at 18:16

Old Post 01-09-11 18:07 #
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gggmork
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Screw that, close failed uvmax:
http://www.speedyshare.com/files/26...maxFail-ggg.lmp

Old Post 01-09-11 22:03 #
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Coldfusio
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gggmork said:
Screw that, close failed uvmax:
http://www.speedyshare.com/files/26...maxFail-ggg.lmp


Wow Great demo, I could see your anger and you used my initial strategy (at the beginning) before my interest waned off. Please if you (darkreaver/ and in general speedmappers) would refine this(/your) speedmap(/s) (extremely), this map could grow for "normal" players instead of shrink after a few plays.

Old Post 01-10-11 00:23 #
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darkreaver
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Yeah I figured that too. I`ll keep it as is for UV I think, unless anyone has any suggestions I cannot turn down, and make it more "fun" and easy on HMP :P

I just watched Melons demo, and haha, I would have quit at the exactly same time.

And Phml, very nice :) too bad you didnt enjoy it that much though :P You came pretty damn far for what was it? Second or third try.

gggmork: I cant get your (first) demo to start. You used ZDoom or something? "G_ReadDemoHeader. Unknown demo format 60" is what I get. And unfortunately I cant download your newest one ATM cuz I`m at work and I cant find any wireless network for my laptop.

I`ll try to record a demo myself now. I`m scared.

edit: oh yeah that lift, I need to do something about it. I intended it to be used in the beginning of the playthrough, before it gets crowded in there, but ofc everyone doesnt play in the exact same way.

Old Post 01-10-11 00:50 #
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ArmouredBlood
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Was out with friends and got back around 4, decided to fda then. Not a good idea, especially when I haven't played much the last month. Also did an sda when I woke up, which was way too late ... heh. Thought it was pretty good, liked the general ideas of the fights but the elevator in the middle was really hit or miss if you kill enough hks and keep them to the sides. And I did miss the ssg for a looong time. Didn't like the first archvile with his misleading alcoves of non-safety, but eh, workable. Had to think on the next part, kept running out of cells/rockets with some PEs left. Arch wasn't really a problem. The next part's teleport trap was kinda meh, very 'I need to know this happens or I get raped by chaingunners'. The horde that comes out later is very survivable with that megasphere and how many little alcoves there are to shelter from archviles. I actually manage to kill the cyb, but get stuck ... and that's as far as I got. Interesting, like phml said a bit too much of the traps I dislike. Haven't played much of HR2 but the bits I did felt a bit like this.

Old Post 01-10-11 01:02 #
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Phml
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And Phml, very nice :) too bad you didnt enjoy it that much though :P


Don't worry, if I didn't like it at all I wouldn't post about it. I think you've done a very good job on everything save a few gameplay choices (and I'm not even saying these specific choices are objectively bad, just pet peeves of mine).

Take my negative feedback as a "I want to like this map but it's a bit too hard/frustrating for me, would really enjoy it if you implemented easier difficulties".

Old Post 01-10-11 01:32 #
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darkreaver
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Thanks for feedback :)

I just recorded a UV-max demo. I`ll see if I can find some wireless network around here so I can upload it.
Beware though, its VERY bad played (had major issues with the mouse. Had to play without any mousepad, so the mouse didnt respond at times :P ) and its a whopping 18 minutes long ( :((( ) because I played the safe way many times.

Anyway: I have come to the conclusion that I`ll edit the elevator a bit, and make it a lot less frustrating on HMP. The W1 teleport infront of the (dead?) chaingunners and the rev horde will stay lol.

BUT! A question: The cyber that teleports in was supposed to be deaf! I only playtested in skulltag (I have ellaborated on my prboom issues before, grrr, damn soundcard), and in skulltag the cyber remains dormant until it see you coming up with the raising floor. In prboom it doesnt work that way I figured :P Actually I did know about it, but I forgot about it.
I was kinda lucky this time when recording though. Survived on first try! Yay!
Any suggestions what to do with that cyber? Can make it tele in later though. Like exactly when the floor is raised back up so you can run out without him wainting in the doorway :P

Old Post 01-10-11 02:01 #
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darkreaver
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K, here is a UV-max if anyone wanna have a look. As mentioned its pretty long and boring (over 18 mins :O )

There demo includes two tries. The first one is short and fast until death, so just wait or skip forward.

http://www.mediafire.com/?rak9acdw2pp9jtn

edit: I suggest you watch gggmork`s demo instead haha. I just watched it and its a fuckton better. I`m estimating a 12 min finish on his if he didnt die, or something close to it.

Last edited by darkreaver on 01-10-11 at 04:14

Old Post 01-10-11 03:39 #
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Phml
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Here's a completely legit UV Max.

Old Post 01-10-11 12:43 #
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gggmork
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Aw man, I watched the whole thing thinking it wasn't TAS and thought you suddently upgraded to timeofdeath's skill level. The fastest uvmax routes often seem to be a uvspeed where you just clean up at the end.

Nice demo darkreaver, its interesting to see how the map maker plays a map. I could tell the mouse was glitching; those analogue things rarely feel right in videogames for me. At least they're not touch screen or motion sensing like in 100% of modern games, ugh.

Old Post 01-10-11 16:28 #
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tmorrow
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This is an excellent and challenging map. Well done! I played it on UV in zdoom 2.5.0. In this port you can hide from the untriggered Cyberdemon near the red door if you move to the right back corner after hitting the switch to raise the floor. Then you can race past the Cyber fairly easily.

It took me 20-30 decent starts before I was able to obtain a UV Max completion of the map with a cautious, snail pace 40 minute run. Surprisingly I found the first half of the map far more difficult than the second half due to the limited ammo/weapons.

Once you get the BFG things get much easier. It was fairly straightforward from the chaingunners on the wall section onward. You can fairly easily get in place and cheese the teleporting Archviles with BFG as they appear and string out the Revenants and rocket them from a distance while hiding from their homing missiles behind numerous obstacles.

I found the most difficult section to be just after triggering the first Cyberdemon. You need to run back to the previous room and point blank BFG the teleporting Archvile and then immediately turn around and take care of the Cyberdemon, 3 Archviles and several Hellknights. I found BFG spam to be the easiest way to do this but needed to practice that section several times before getting it down pat.

In the final section if you hang back and rocket from a distance you can pick off the enemies with relative ease. I was able to clear the cages on both sides and the Archviles behind before triggering the Cyberdemon and Cacodemons packing the outer border.

The Spider Mastermind can easily be taken with 15+ Super Shotgun blasts at close range from behind the switch in the eastern room without being shafted by the enemies outside in the final section.

Thanks for the great map, I enjoyed it.

Old Post 02-04-11 16:37 #
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darkreaver
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Thanks :)

Did you play the version posted in this thread or the one that is uploaded to idgames? There is a few changes to the one that is at idgames (not that much though).

I could have made the final fights a bit more challenging. As you said you can easily rocket the hell out of the caged revs and HKs with archviles behind if you save enough rockets :) The map wasnt tested to the max because I`m not the greatest player myself :)

Ive been thinking of making a couple of more maps in the vein of this one, so I might do it in the near future.

Old Post 02-05-11 03:30 #
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tmorrow
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I played the version of ahatred you posted at the top of this thread.

I watched your replay and you did it in half the time it took me! I keep getting shafted when I try to play too agressively so I have to progress inch by inch to stay relatively safe.

I think the traps were mostly fair after you knew what to expect but some were an outright killer the first play through. I don't have a problem with this at all. I know people will disagree but I believe a well designed map should kill the player a few times, forcing the player to dig deep for a good strategy that suits their play style an ability to progress.

Equally important, a good map won't be trivialised even after working out a good strategy for it. A map is spoiled if you can cheese the most difficult parts of it with little risk.

Finally a good map will generally build in intensity as you further progress into it. If the most difficult part of the map is in the first room, then enjoyment for the rest of the map suffers due to the diminished challenge.

Ahatred does a great job in all of these aspects with a possible exception that there may be too much health at the end, allowing some players to relax when the intensity should be at its highest. Part of the problem at the end is that after completing the first wave of enemies coming through the blue doors, few enemies are able to follow the player back to the previous rooms because they are locked in cages or restricted to a sector. I know some of this depends on how the player plays the map, cautiously step by step or fast UV Max style where you trigger almost all enemies and then cleanup the mess later.

You balanced the ammo very well, there's enough that you don't have to worry about using your best gear when required but not so much that you can mindlessly spam Plasma and Rockets all over even at easy enemies. Essentially you need to use all provided ammo/weapons wisely.

I'm most impressed with the difficulty balance, it just about right so it is at the limits of my ability (I regard my ability as average). It is a relentless map where you are punished for mistakes which is as it should be.

I've also been impressed with the replay value of this map, I've played it several times without getting tired of it like I have with some other maps. In my case I believe this is because the challenge is pitched just right for me. A friend and I have been competing for a while to be the first one to get through this map, he's still stuck at the chain gunner section, the poor bugger :-)

I'll be happy to playtest anything else you've got coming down the pipeline :-)

Old Post 02-05-11 06:06 #
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gggmork
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"Finally a good map will generally build in intensity as you further progress into it. If the most difficult part of the map is in the first room, then enjoyment for the rest of the map suffers due to the diminished challenge."

If a level is maybe 7+ minutes long to beat, it might be better to have the most difficult (death causing) part at the beginning because dying and restarting near the end over and over when attempting a demo is more annoying than dying at the beginning and can bloat your total play time to 70 minutes for 10 failed attempts, which is worse if there's lots of mostly linear stuff to replay. Making the ending more epic might work by making it appear difficult rather than actually be difficult. Like maybe tons of monsters but lots of life at the end or something. But its not like there's any rules to map making.

Old Post 02-05-11 08:46 #
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Phml
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But its not like there's any rules to map making.


Right. I'm a big fan of fake difficulty myself - basically make the player feel like he's challenged rather than actually challenge him. Ideally I want to be able to step into a new map, have some very close calls but come out on top (assuming I pay attention to my surroundings). Deaths should mostly, if not only, result from my own mistakes.

I'm perfectly fine with this only be true in HMP or HNTR, though.

I think AB does it well in NewGothic, with generally big fights and often huge end fights, but lots of powerups. Maps throwing off the meat of the horde at you first aren't bad either, but some feel a bit "metagamey" to me (when the numbers dwindle and you stay in for a max run, it feels like the doomguy is going on a rampage rather than the demons trying to kill him).

Old Post 02-05-11 12:25 #
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tmorrow
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Some very good points about difficulty. It is frustrating if a map takes a long time to get to a hit or miss difficulty section. A recent example I've played is with holyhell that is extremely long and has high difficulty right throughout, the hardest sections being at the end.

Phml, you are right about "fake difficulty". The further you get the more you are "invested in the level", so sections can appear harder than they really are.

I guess overall I prefer maps that appear to intensify as you progress through it, however if there are extremely difficult sections that can't be simplified with good strategy then they ought to occur earlier than later.

Old Post 02-05-11 13:49 #
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