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Acid

Panophobia -> CHECK OTHER TOPIC. THIS ONE IS DEAD.

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Guest DILDOMASTER666
killer2 said:

Anyway,I hope the maps will be interesting enough even without using ZDoom,though the puzzlemap (the one with no monsters) would be much more interesting with crouching,jumping,freelook,new textures and interesting background noises.


http://forum.zdoom.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=30772

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40oz said:

If we're switching to ZDoom, then it's like I'm being punished for brainstorming.


Whether or not it is the port or aesthetic experience you look for when playing Doom, you must realize how silly it is to claim that any port "punishes" creativity. Lack of creativity is not port-specific, and just because a port makes a new method available does not make other methods non-functional. The ability to print "YOU FOUGHT AN AWESOME BATTLE" on the screen using ACS does not relieve a mapper of the obligation to actually include compelling monster and item placement in their work.

40oz said:

Also I don't get... why anyone thinks Doom 2 textures suck.


Like the above quote, this is a straw man. I truly doubt that many of the people on this board think the Doom textures suck. It's more likely that after 18 years some people would simply like to see different textures that also do not suck, hence projects like Back to Saturn X. I like the Doom textures just fine but I'm glad that Epic2 used Powerslave textures instead, and I was happy to see the new textures in UAC Ultra as well. Liking Doom textures obviously does not preclude also liking other textures.

I have no stake in this project, by the way.

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Guest DILDOMASTER666
killer2 said:

I've already seen that.Keep in mind though that the maps aren't based on phobias or such,they're simple maps.So what I said still stands.

That has... What, exactly, to do with my point?

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What if it was a Boom project full of voodoo doll scripting and stuff and I'd made the same point - would you still say the same thing?


Yes, that would be the exact same situation.

People should be free to choose whatever port they want to use without their reasons being consistently questioned.

It's great that you're open minded about using all ports. That doesn't make the opinions of people who have different preferences any less relevant.

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How about we stick with Vanilla (limit removing) and then if enough people want to make more maps, then we can have a Panophobia II or Panophobia Extended with ZDoom features? -.-

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esselfortium said:

Sim...ple..?


Little does everyone know that Back to Saturn X is actually switching over to the Quake engine, eh?

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esselfortium said:

Sim...ple..?

Ok,simple was badly worded. I mean that they're not changing the basic DooM gameplay in any way,unlike this.

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jute said:

Whether or not it is the port or aesthetic experience you look for when playing Doom, you must realize how silly it is to claim that any port "punishes" creativity. Lack of creativity is not port-specific, and just because a port makes a new method available does not make other methods non-functional. The ability to print "YOU FOUGHT AN AWESOME BATTLE" on the screen using ACS does not relieve a mapper of the obligation to actually include compelling monster and item placement in their work.


Well said indeed. This Vanilla obsession is becoming a religion for some people it seems. Non-compliance is deemed heretical. I'll play any type of map as long as the author made it fun and enjoyable.

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Phml said:

It's great that you're open minded about using all ports. That doesn't make the opinions of people who have different preferences any less relevant.

As awful a thing as it is to say, I'd be tempted to say that 40oz's POV is actually almost irrelevant because he's just too closed-minded to be worth listening to. That argument he put up on the previous page about ZDoom somehow stopping him doing what he wants is completely retarded, for one thing.

Honestly though, you are right. The main problem with going to ports is that you exclude anybody who can't (or more usually, won't) use them. The key contention here for me is that its the project lead whose choices are being limited by the mappers being drama queens.

Processingcontrol said:

If zdoom features were allowed:

-Ports not compatible with zdoom couldn't be used.

-Levels made for vanilla doom could be breakable with jumping, crouching, finitely tall actors, different stair building, different invisibility spheres, etc.

-Levels made for vanilla doom would contrast with zdoom levels.

Point 1 is valid and is indeed the one reason I accept why most community projects are vanilla, limit removing or Boom compatible. Point 2 can largely be mitigated by MAPINFO and people's personal preferences. You know full well a lot of people use more advanced ports when playing, so they'll still get most of those things anyway.
Point 3 on the other hand feels pretty weak to me. Any mapper who isn't filling his map with highly saturated fog or sector colouring can easily make a classic looking map, even with sloped sectors and interchangeable textures/flats.

Still, whatever the case, this isn't my project and I'm not involved in it. I'm just thoroughly disappointed at the attitude towards source ports from some people here - half of the arguments being levelled may as well be "But it's against my religion!" for all of the logic being applied.

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Guys, go do your drama thing somewhere else please. It's not really necessary to bring your oldschool vs newschool thing here.

I've added Vaporizer for Nyctophobia. I've seen some maps pull off a dark scene even with the default sky, so try what you can first. If not, you can have more indoor areas.

Also added PabloD's second map in MAP11 (subject to change if 40oz drops out)

40oz. It's back to the beginning. You participating or not?

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Phobus said:

As awful a thing as it is to say, I'd be tempted to say that 40oz's POV is actually almost irrelevant because he's just too closed-minded to be worth listening to. That argument he put up on the previous page about ZDoom somehow stopping him doing what he wants is completely retarded, for one thing.


I completely agree with what 40oz said and I think your misinterpreting it. If he does his map in vanilla doom, he has to be creative, innovative, and challenge himself to fit the concept into vanilla constraints. However, if someone plays it assuming that it uses zdoom features, they'll think that method used to stimulate fall damage is primitive when fall damage can just be used.

You know that room in Requiem MAP31 with the big hole in the floor you fall through? That's the coolest thing I've ever seen done in vanilla doom, and I'm sure most of the other people who've played that map were at least impressed. However, if the same map was put in megawad with mostly zdoom levels, most people would just assume it uses the transfer heights effect and ignore it.

Point 2 can largely be mitigated by MAPINFO and people's personal preferences. You know full well a lot of people use more advanced ports when playing, so they'll still get most of those things anyway.


But wouldn't it be annoying if your allowed to jump/crouch/freelook in one map but not the next? What if the first level prohibits jumping, but the next one requires it? You could get stuck because you think jumping is still disabled.

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Processingcontrol said:

I completely agree with what 40oz said and I think your misinterpreting it. If he does his map in vanilla doom, he has to be creative, innovative, and challenge himself to fit the concept into vanilla constraints. However, if someone plays it assuming that it uses zdoom features, they'll think that method used to stimulate fall damage is primitive when fall damage can just be used.

You know that room in Requiem MAP31 with the big hole in the floor you fall through? That's the coolest thing I've ever seen done in vanilla doom, and I'm sure most of the other people who've played that map were at least impressed. However, if the same map was put in megawad with mostly zdoom levels, most people would just assume it uses the transfer heights effect and ignore it.


Yeah, no one's ever done anything creative in ZDoom. Personally I just like to hit the little button in Doom Builder that makes a map for me, honestly.

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Processingcontrol said:

But wouldn't it be annoying if your allowed to jump/crouch/freelook in one map but not the next? What if the first level prohibits jumping, but the next one requires it? You could get stuck because you think jumping is still disabled.

You're allowed to freelook whenever you like - that's an option for the player. To be fair, it's quite easy for the project to maintain that jumping/crouching are necessary or unused throughout its entirity. You seem to think they can't be managed in some way. Besides, a little ACS message or some sort of sign at the start of the map saying jumping is enabled for the map won't exactly hurt.

As for your other point, what essel said. Is it really such a problem if somebody is aware that there's a simpler, easier method to acheive what you hacked in? The vast majority of the "clever" stuff I've done in ZDoom has been so badly implemented any competent scripter can do it better or differently. Fact is the play experience hasn't changed much and not many end-users bother getting technical with the play experience.

EDIT: My apologies to BloodyAcid for hijacking his thread with this argument. It's my fault that it started and I'll stop replying to any posts about this argument from now. Anybody who really wants to continue this can either make a new thread or PM me.

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I think you could all save yourselves a lot of trouble if everytime you start a new project thread, you list the port type in the title and/or make it crystal clear what it is in the first paragraph. Otherwise it just leads to confusion and disapointment.

Btw, not everybody can even run ZDoom. For example, it doesn't run on my laptop (OpenBSD) or my Nintendo DS (AKAIO). Both can run PrBoom though, and the laptop can also run Chocolate Doom as well. I'm sure there's other people in my situation too. But I'm not here to tell you what to use in your project (that's up to you), only to point out the obvious mistake, which is a lack of effective communication.

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Processingcontrol said:

You know that room in Requiem MAP31 with the big hole in the floor you fall through? That's the coolest thing I've ever seen done in vanilla doom, and I'm sure most of the other people who've played that map were at least impressed. However, if the same map was put in megawad with mostly zdoom levels, most people would just assume it uses the transfer heights effect and ignore it.


Who cares how you accomplished some gimmick regardless? If you think critical opinion of your map hinges on whether or not someone can tell that you make the big hole in the room vanilla-compatible then perhaps you should focus more on level design and less on occasional novelties. People enjoy maps because they are fun, not because you did or did not use transfer heights.

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Guest DILDOMASTER666
killer2 said:

Ok,simple was badly worded. I mean that they're not changing the basic DooM gameplay in any way,unlike this.


Yeah? You make your maps in whatever port you want; I'll make something about kenophobia that's vanilla/limit-removing and we'll see if my map can compare. :)

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Fisk said:

Yeah? You make your maps in whatever port you want; I'll make something about kenophobia that's vanilla/limit-removing and we'll see if my map can compare. :)


Done. You've got MAP12.

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Fisk said:

Yeah? You make your maps in whatever port you want; I'll make something about kenophobia that's vanilla/limit-removing and we'll see if my map can compare. :)


I am not good at mapping,I was just making this argument because someone else may want to use ZDoom features.

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It'd be just as wrong to suggest that these phobia maps can't be done effectively in vanilla as it would to suggest that ZDoom limits and discourages creativity, so I have quite a lot of faith in this project working well.

In fact, if the project is still in progress when I've finished making my second Back to Saturn X map, I'll sign up here to make a map based on one of the remaining phobias that adheres to whatever the rules are at the time (I'm quite happy to work in vanilla with the stock textures, afterall).

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killer2 said:

I am not good at mapping,I was just making this argument because someone else may want to use ZDoom features.


Cough!

http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1009230#post1009230

killer2 said:

I want to beta test this!ZDoom wads ftw.So sign me up too!


http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1009323#post1009323

killer2 said:

Yeah!Make an interesting WAD specifically for an engine nobody plays on!
On a serious note,I bet GZDoom is way better than your Eternity engine.


And those two posts were only made last week.

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That said, the idea for this wad sounds interesting and while I'm not going to join because I don't think I would be quick enough coming up with an idea and then making it, I look forward to playing it, regardless of port (or no port) it uses.

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Vermil said:

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4fU0Ajo4RM&[\yt]

First,that is downright insulting!Second,you failed at using the [yt] tag.

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Guys, for the last time,

TAKE THIS SOMEWHERE ELSE. If you want to quarrel over GZDoom, go for the PMs.

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Hey Bloody, what's the deal with progress screens; want us to post some up or is this being kept under wraps?

EDIT: The reason I ask is that we don't know how much detailing vs how classic our fellow mappers are working towards, it would be cool to see a few example pics

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phobosdeimos1 said:

Hey Bloody, what's the deal with progress screens; want us to post some up or is this being kept under wraps?

EDIT: The reason I ask is that we don't know how much detailing vs how classic our fellow mappers are working towards, it would be cool to see a few example pics


It'd be nice to at least hear of some progress for your maps. Screens and detail is up to you, as I want people to map to their own style (gives me an excuse :P) Well, at least for me, some of the detailing isn't exactly classic, but again, that's up to you.


For my map, Carnophobia, it is about 25% done in terms of gameplay/detailing.

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