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kildeth
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Once EvilNed gives me the ordered maplist, I'll likely use it to make yet another demo compilation of the wad so we can really see where we are at and what we need to do to polish things up. After that we aren't that far from completing this.

Old Post 03-07-13 22:26 #
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cannonball
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cool. I will make sure to give this the good old playtestaroo

Old Post 03-07-13 22:59 #
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EvilNed01
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I'll work on it this weekend.

But personally, I do feel that the final map called Extorta Nova really needs a reworking.

Right now, it's pretty much unplayable. At least for me. It looks great and has such potential, but I can't beat it without cheating (or maybe I can, if I tried a 100 times). It's not fun in it's current state, but it could be AWESOME.

Old Post 03-08-13 00:00 #
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cannonball
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EvilNed01 said:
I'll work on it this weekend.

But personally, I do feel that the final map called Extorta Nova really needs a reworking.

Right now, it's pretty much unplayable. At least for me. It looks great and has such potential, but I can't beat it without cheating (or maybe I can, if I tried a 100 times). It's not fun in it's current state, but it could be AWESOME.


I agree with you here, also even with cheats I don't think I got all the monsters to spawn. I will check again tomorrow. If there are only a few map slots short of 32 maps. I might do a speedmap or two (aka a scythe sized map)

Old Post 03-08-13 00:02 #
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Paul D
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The problem with Extorta Nova is the same problem(in my opinion) that quite a few of fiend-o-hell's maps have. Almost all the enemies you encounter aren't pre-placed into the layout of level. Teleporting swarms of demons trap you into a corner and you die because you can't move because the level is too cramped in relation to how dang many monsters have spawned.

There's not much going for the player when he can't use monster placement to his advantage consider it to play though the same encounter with multiple strategies, which I think is a very large component of the game.

Provided, monster teleportation tricks can be justified, if the theme of the level goes along with it, and it is used in an interesting, creative, and non-frustrating way.

I think somebody should have a go at experimenting with altering the layout of the level [Extorta Nova] somewhat, adding more pre-placed encounters, and making the layout a little more open so that the player has more room to move around and fight.

But the Aesthetic of the level is really interesting and unique and I think it should be maintained.



mouldy said:
ok, here's my bad blood map which you can add to the party:
http://www.mediafire.com/?e6si1h6pp35n1mw

I tidied up some mistakes and added difficulties, although I'm not sure how great the difficulty settings are - I have a feeling I made the lower ones too easy.

If anyone spots any errors or has problems let me know. I've no idea where it would fit into the proceedings, I'll let others decide. Also if anyone has any suggestions for the music...



Wow, this map is pretty cool. Gameplay gets a little dodgey at times, but I really like the details and decoration.

Last edited by Paul D on 03-08-13 at 00:32

Old Post 03-08-13 00:23 #
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mouldy
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Paul D said:

Wow, this map is pretty cool. Gameplay gets a little dodgey at times, but I really like the details and decoration.



Cheers! Feel free to suggest areas that could use improvement, this was my first attempt at mapping so there was a bit of a learning process going on.

Old Post 03-08-13 00:47 #
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dobu gabu maru
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Regarding Extorta Nova, like with a lot of fiend's levels, there's an excellent sense of craftsmanship and unique ideas, but the failed teles and lack of balance can definitely be a turn off to other players. We should wait a while longer just to see if he's still around/wants to work on his map more, but I echo the sentiment that it does indeed need editing for the final release, as it was far too oppressive on my first playthrough.

Also, I doubt it can be MAP30 due to its superfluous use of teleporters. It'll probably be the penultimate map, leaving use with a potential IoS map unless someone wants to just make it a normal tele-frag free level.


After that we aren't that far from completing this.


It really depends on the mappers. I map slower than a snail so it might be a while, but I really want to get at least one map out before March is finished. I think releasing Alpha 4.0 will give us a good perspective of where we're at.

Old Post 03-08-13 01:08 #
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kildeth
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Hmm... has fiend-o-hell been on the site recently? I might PM him to inform him his map is being spoken about. He might not even be aware this is still active.

Old Post 03-08-13 10:56 #
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dobu gabu maru
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His last post was back in January. Wouldn't hurt to try and PM him just in case he comes on some time.

Old Post 03-08-13 17:34 #
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Paul D
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Just wondering, are we still going for complevel 2, or complevel 9?

Because I just (tried) to do a playthrough of Teleportarium on complevel 2, and tons of my floor lower to lowest triggers are broken and the level is impossible to even complete.

Should I rebuild the map to make it work in complevel 2, or should/can we change this project to complevel 9?

Old Post 03-09-13 05:45 #
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mouldy
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Paul D said:
Just wondering, are we still going for complevel 2, or complevel 9?

Because I just (tried) to do a playthrough of Teleportarium on complevel 2, and tons of my floor lower to lowest triggers are broken and the level is impossible to even complete.

Should I rebuild the map to make it work in complevel 2, or should/can we change this project to complevel 9?



Pfft, I can't even get out of the first room on my map with complevel 2. In fact even on complevel 9 there is a door that won't open, but if level 2 is the goal then I'd also have a lot of stuff to change. Not even sure if some bits will work as intended.

Old Post 03-09-13 12:48 #
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kildeth
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What's complevel 9? Boom format? I'm pretty sure complevel 2 is limit removing and that's what we were originally aiming for.

Old Post 03-09-13 13:12 #
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mouldy
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kildeth said:
What's complevel 9? Boom format? I'm pretty sure complevel 2 is limit removing and that's what we were originally aiming for.


Yeah, unfortunately my map was made for boom compatibility. Complevel 2 doesnt even seem to allow "S1 ceiling raise to highest ceiling", which is the first action in my map. Is there a list somewhere of vanilla compatible actions because hardly anything in my map will work and it would help me to find suitable replacements.

edit: never mind, I just realised I can open the map in doom2 format which should only have vanilla options...

Old Post 03-09-13 14:09 #
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EvilNed01
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Oof, I haven't really even considered this...

Old Post 03-09-13 15:26 #
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mouldy
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I'll try and make a complevel2 version, no worries

Old Post 03-09-13 16:43 #
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dobu gabu maru
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My maps are set for -complevel 2 but I wouldn't mind using -complevel 9 if needed (just for the passthru options and stuff). Good luck to anyone that has to rework their maps though, it can be a bitch to sort out.

Old Post 03-09-13 17:51 #
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Paul D
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Well, I didn't use any line actions that aren't vanilla compatible, it's just the way I built my floor lowering sectors, on complevel 2 the game doesn't know what to do with them and they are just stuck.

Old Post 03-09-13 20:39 #
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mouldy
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Paul D said:
Well, I didn't use any line actions that aren't vanilla compatible, it's just the way I built my floor lowering sectors, on complevel 2 the game doesn't know what to do with them and they are just stuck.


I had a run through with no monsters and everything seemed to work ok, which bits are causing problems for you?

edit: playing it again with monsters its like you say, loads of stuff not working. Think we need some expert advice on this, I can't see why this would happen.

Unless its because you have a lot of monsters stuck in the walls, I can see a few in doombuilder - try moving them so their squares aren't inside any walls or other monsters and see if that helps

Last edited by mouldy on 03-09-13 at 22:20

Old Post 03-09-13 21:54 #
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dobu gabu maru
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Can't monsters trigger W1/WR lines? Maybe that's what they're doing so you might have to "Block Monster" them

Old Post 03-10-13 00:40 #
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Paul D
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mouldy said:


I had a run through with no monsters and everything seemed to work ok, which bits are causing problems for you?

edit: playing it again with monsters its like you say, loads of stuff not working. Think we need some expert advice on this, I can't see why this would happen.

Unless its because you have a lot of monsters stuck in the walls, I can see a few in doombuilder - try moving them so their squares aren't inside any walls or other monsters and see if that helps



I fixed a handful of them, but there are still quite a few that are broken, despite the monsters being clear of them.

Old Post 03-10-13 00:59 #
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mouldy
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I've noticed in doombuilder there are a lot of monsters embedded in floors/ceilings, deleting those seems to have fixed some of the problems so I think its just down to monsters being stuck. Its a bit of a process of elimination going through the whole map though, and will involve changing some of it to accommodate the monsters better.

Old Post 03-10-13 01:00 #
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Paul D
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I think the most reasonable solution would be to change all (or most) of those floor lowerings into doors.

However, in multiple playthroughs, sector 8 gets inexplicably stuck.

I suppose I can use this opportunity to clean up the gameplay more, at least.

Old Post 03-10-13 01:09 #
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mouldy
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i found sector 8 got fixed when i deleted the imps in the sectors next to it, 211 and 221. It seems like monsters stuck in one place can effect sectors in another... what I would be tempted to do is make a massive room off to the side and move all the monsters into it in one go, then go through room by room putting the monsters back in and see which ones cause the problems.

Old Post 03-10-13 01:21 #
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EvilNed01
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All this complevel stuff is greek to me. I have no wish to rework any of my maps to fit any particular version of DooM unless given a good reason to do so.

Tbh, if it turns out my levels are incompatible with complevel 2, I'll probably just withdraw them as I do not have enough time to rework them. :(

Old Post 03-10-13 01:43 #
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dobu gabu maru
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I think your maps are fine EvilNed; as long as didn't create your maps in Doom Builder under Boom format, you won't have any major issues (ideally, unless you're using a lot of fancy trickery).

Which reminds me, I'll do a -complevel 2 PrBoom playthrough on the next Alpha to make sure all the levels are fine since apparently none of us have done it yet. I'm glad we're not aiming for Vanilla compatibility :P

Old Post 03-10-13 03:15 #
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mouldy
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Well, here's my map fully complevel2 compliant (I hope)
http://www.mediafire.com/?3ex9lu6eessjr1y

I didn't have to change it too much in the end, most of the actions could be replaced, and I took the opportunity to add a few monsters.

complevel 2 is set to behave like the original doom 2, so it loses some of the bells and whistles that boom allows. I guess some people prefer to play it like that, so the idea is to make it so everyone can enjoy it. Or something.

Old Post 03-10-13 03:16 #
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Processingcontrol
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EvilNed01 said:
All this complevel stuff is greek to me. I have no wish to rework any of my maps to fit any particular version of DooM unless given a good reason to do so.

Prboom+ complevel 2 compatibility is basically the modern definition of "limit-removing". It sets the standard for how a wad is "supposed" to be played, which is very important to demo recorders. The Prboom+ complevel system also assures players that the gameplay in a level will be the exactly same as intended. It's sort of like the SI for doom maps.

To make sure your level works in complevel 2, just download Prboom+, set the compatibility to "Doom v1.9", and test your map in it.

Old Post 03-10-13 04:01 #
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EvilNed01
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are there some linedef functions that are not allowed in complevel 2?

Old Post 03-10-13 10:04 #
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mouldy
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EvilNed01 said:
are there some linedef functions that are not allowed in complevel 2?


If you open your map in doombuilder in 'doom 2' configuration then any linedef actions that won't work will show as "unknown", and the actions list will only show ones that will be allowed. There are some weird things missing which might involve a work around, but if your map only uses the basic stuff that you'd find in the original game then you should be ok.

Old Post 03-10-13 16:27 #
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EvilNed01
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Right now we have 19 maps ready to go, if we wanna release another alpha.

I still say we should push for release by the end of April, tho!

EDIT: But, i maintain that Extorta Nova needs a rework for the final release.

Old Post 03-10-13 18:59 #
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