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Mad Butcher
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ScottGray said:
Iv updated my downloads post to version 2.

Downloads link

Old Post 11-21-12 01:07 #
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Sodaholic
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Personally, I think that the cut levels should be a separate pack.

Old Post 11-21-12 01:38 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Well yeah, of course, no one was proposing anything else. What I'm not sure about is whether, when loaded, they should integrate into the existing level set seamlessly, in the same order as the PC version, or should be another stand alone episode. (I lean towards the latter myself, but I could see people wanting the former since it would be more cohesive.)

Old Post 11-21-12 01:50 #
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BlueFireZ88
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The PS1 Doom article:
http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Sony_PlayStation

For reference here's the list of removed levels:
Doom 1
-------------
Hell Keep (PC)
Slough of Despair
Dis
Warrens
They Will Repent
Against Thee Wickedly
And Hell Followed
Fear

Doom 2
---------------
Downtown
Industrial Zone
Gotcha!
The Chasm
The Spirit World
The Living End
Icon of Sin
Wolfenstein
Grosse

And the other countless levels from the Master Levels set and Final Doom.


Dragonsbrethren:
Would it be wise to take an approach with Industrial Zone similar to the GBA version? Have it split in two since that version is a bit rare? That could also apply for The Chasm.

Old Post 11-21-12 05:57 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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That's something I hadn't really even thought about before. The only thing I dislike about the idea is that it kind of sets a precedent for dividing large maps, while this is supposed to be sort of a PSX Doom uncut pack.

Old Post 11-21-12 17:29 #
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Gez
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BlueFireZ88 said:
The PS1 Doom article:
http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Sony_PlayStation

For reference here's the list of removed levels:
Doom 1
-------------
Hell Keep (PC)
Slough of Despair
Dis
Warrens
They Will Repent
Against Thee Wickedly
And Hell Followed
Fear

Doom 2
---------------
Downtown
Industrial Zone
Gotcha!
The Chasm
The Spirit World
The Living End
Icon of Sin
Wolfenstein
Grosse

And the other countless levels from the Master Levels set and Final Doom.


Master Levels:
---------------
Titan Manor (MANOR.WAD)
Trapped on Titan (TTRAP.WAD)
The Garrison (GARRISON.WAD)
Black Tower (BLACKTWR.WAD)
Bloodsea Keep (BLOODSEA.WAD)
Mephisto's Maosoleum (MEPHISTO.WAD)
The Express Elevator to Hell + Bad Dream (TEETH.WAD)

TNT: Evilution
---------------
Power Control
Hanger
Open Season
Prison
Metal
Stronghold
Redemption
Storage Facility
Steel Works
Dead Zone (secret exit to Pharaoh)
Mill
Shipping/Respawning
Central Processing
Administration Center
Habitat
Baron's Den
Mount Pain
River Styx
Last Call
Pharaoh (secret exit to Caribbean)
Caribbean

Plutonia Experiment
---------------
Well of Souls
Caged
Caughtyard
Realm
Abattoire
Hunted
Speed
The Crypt
Genesis
The Twilight (secret exit to Cyberden)
The Omen
Compound
Neurosphere
NME
Slayer
Impossible Mission
Tombstone
The Final Frontier
The Temple of Darkness
Bunker
Anti-Christ
The Sewers
Odyssey of Noises
The Gateway of Hell
Cyberden
Go 2 It

The odd thing is that the Plutonia part got Onslaught (MAP10) as the final level, following The Death Domain (MAP20). Level progression is normal in Final Doom itself except for this oddity (as in, levels are sometimes skipped, but they keep the order from the PC version otherwise).

And of course, the Master Levels are lazily sorted alphabetically. Both Klie's and Anderson's levels were meant to be in a series with a specific (if vague, for Klie's levels) order. Heck, you could complete them with Dante's Gate, Crossing Acheron, and the Cabal series. (By the way, "And Hell Followed" can also be used as the eighth map in Anderson's Inferno series, since originally it was CHIRON.WAD.)

Old Post 11-21-12 19:04 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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How do you guys think Hunted should be handled? While we could replace the achies with another monster, personally I think that's one map where they could've gotten away with using the guy on the PSX. Storage space on the disc was plentiful; it was RAM space limiting the number of unique monster frames in each map. A map with nothing but the arch-vile probably would've been doable.

Old Post 11-21-12 19:20 #
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BlueFireZ88
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Thanks for clearing that up Gez. :)

Barons would probably do ok if your going for consistency in the PS1's case. Revenants too maybe. Could be a mixture of a few types too.

Old Post 11-21-12 19:25 #
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Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


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Dragonsbrethren said:
A map with nothing but the arch-vile probably would've been doable.

Yes, and beside, being hunted by bloody hooks hanging from the sky just wouldn't be the same thing.

Old Post 11-21-12 19:25 #
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fenderc01
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Mattfrie1, maybe you should consider renaming the thread title to:
PSX Doom/Final Doom TC (Version 2.0 now released!)
or something to that effect.

Old Post 11-22-12 15:02 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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http://dkk.slickproductions.org/images/doom/psx/wellofsouls01.png

Ignore the sky; I'm still using the MAP02 slot for now and didn't bother changing the mapinfo lump.

I'll start a new thread for the lost levels project soon, posting this map as an example once it's done.

Old Post 11-22-12 19:04 #
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Impboy4
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That's actually pretty good for emulating "limitations" to the missing levels.

Old Post 11-22-12 23:47 #
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ScottGray
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excellent, looks like a genuine psx doom level.
Dragonsbrethren have you got a procedure or a set of rules in mind for converting to playstation style levels.

Old Post 11-23-12 00:05 #
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scalliano
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I'm really liking the "lost levels" idea. Is the plan to edit the larger maps down to a "PSX-compatible" state as well as removing detail/adding in the lighting effects?

Old Post 11-23-12 00:31 #
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fenderc01
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Here are a few things the "missing levels" should have:
-Colored lighting
-Sound reverb
-PSX Doom-ish looking textures
-Simpler geometry
-Shorter vertically
-No arch-viles (add blood hooks?)
-Fewer health and armor bonuses (since they are worth 2 points instead of 1)
-Add nightmare spectres

Feel free to add any other ideas.

Old Post 11-23-12 00:39 #
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Impboy4
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fenderc01 said:
Here are a few things the "missing levels" should have:
-Colored lighting
-Sound reverb
-PSX Doom-ish looking textures
-Simpler geometry
-Shorter vertically
-No arch-viles (add blood hooks?)
-Fewer health and armor bonuses (since they are worth 2 points instead of 1)
-Add nightmare spectres

Feel free to add any other ideas.



Don't forget chopping out sections for the more complex maps.

Old Post 11-23-12 00:48 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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scalliano said:
I'm really liking the "lost levels" idea. Is the plan to edit the larger maps down to a "PSX-compatible" state as well as removing detail/adding in the lighting effects?

I've been trying to get sector heights into the 300's and am removing any self-referencing sector tricks. Other than that, it's hard to say, since I'm not really sure what the original PSX engine could and couldn't handle. I'm not sure the PSX engine supported linked sectors (if anyone has an example of one, let me know) since everything that had been linked in the Plutonia maps I looked at isn't anymore.

It's kind of hard to say we should cut the levels down and drop sections when this is supposed to be sort of an uncut pack. At the same time, I do want to be authentic. But it's hard to say what is authentic when you're not working on the original engine on the original hardware.

As for more points:

-Limited use of Doom 2 monsters in Ultimate Doom
-Monster variety reduction in Doom 2/Final Doom maps

Already did the latter in Well of Souls, replacing the Baron and revenants with more hell knights.

I was also thinking that anyone who converts a map could also contribute a map of their own to the pack if they want, like the original designers did for PSX Doom. Would need to only use vanilla features (outside of the PSX stuff, of course) and fit in with the gameplay/aesthetic style of the TC.

Edit: Nevermind on linked sectors. Just noticed the MAP89 monster teleport is linked.

Last edited by Dragonsbrethren on 11-23-12 at 18:54

Old Post 11-23-12 18:45 #
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[LeD]Jake Crusher
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Don't know, whether that subject has been discussed or not - but, after finishing Ultimate Doom, I started Doom 2... with only a pistol, and fist. Everything else (shotgun, SSG, chaingun, etc) - is not with me anymore. While on PS1, after completing "Threshold of Pain", in the beginning of Doom 2, I had everything.
Could this be fixed?

Old Post 11-23-12 19:53 #
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Impboy4
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To prevent the difficulty being too easy.

Old Post 11-23-12 21:14 #
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fenderc01
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[LeD]Jake Crusher said:
Don't know, whether that subject has been discussed or not - but, after finishing Ultimate Doom, I started Doom 2... with only a pistol, and fist. Everything else (shotgun, SSG, chaingun, etc) - is not with me anymore. While on PS1, after completing "Threshold of Pain", in the beginning of Doom 2, I had everything.
Could this be fixed?


I just popped my PlayStation Doom CD into my system to confirm whether or not this it true. After I finished Threshold of Pain, the game showed the level tally screen, followed by the demon voice text for the end of Ultimate Doom. The game then returned to the main menu with Doom II selected. When I started Doom II, I started with just the pistol. So the current behavior is correct, unless maybe there is a revision that is different. I have the CD with the number SLUS-00077 26950 on it.

Old Post 11-24-12 00:30 #
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BaronOfStuff
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fenderc01 said:

After I finished Threshold of Pain, the game showed the level tally screen, followed by the demon voice text for the end of Ultimate Doom. The game then returned to the main menu with Doom II selected. When I started Doom II, I started with just the pistol. So the current behavior is correct, unless maybe there is a revision that is different. I have the CD with the number SLUS-00077 26950 on it.



Well, yeah... because you've technically started a new game of Doom II from the main menu. It doesn't take anything else into account.

The tally screen for Threshold Of Pain will give you a password though -- using this will let you continue on Entryway with all your stuff.

With this in mind, I think that completing Threshold Of Pain in the TC should lead straight to Entryway with an intact inventory; it's then up to the player at this point if they want to continue while tooled-up to the eyeballs, or start Doom II via the menu and rebuild their armoury from scratch. It's not perfect, but it still offers both options like the PSX original.

Old Post 11-24-12 01:40 #
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fenderc01
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BaronOfStuff said:
The tally screen for Threshold Of Pain will give you a password though -- using this will let you continue on Entryway with all your stuff.

I just confirmed this for myself. I forgot you could do that. I'm kind of torn on this because while I do agree on keeping things authentic, I feel like it makes Doom II too easy to start off with. I guess it wouldn't hurt to keep your weapons, etc. because you could always load up a new game if you wanted to start Doom II fresh.

Old Post 11-24-12 02:28 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Yeah, I'm kind of torn on the idea myself. I guess it really is the only way of replicating how the password works (I never even paid attention to that password), but the way we're currently doing things is better for players who don't know you had to use a password to keep your weapons in the original.

Old Post 11-24-12 04:32 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Typed up an OP for the new thread, which I've pasted below. Let me know if you think anything should be added to it (or removed).

---

When the team at Williams Entertainment ported the classic Doom games to the PlayStation, they created what many of us considered the definitive versions of Doom. While it may have run in a slightly lower resolution, the port took full advantage of the hardware it was running on and was easily superior to every other console version available at the time. Its visuals were darkened, colored light and translucency effects were added, it had a new set of sounds and creepy ambient music by Aubrey Hodges, making it one of the most atmospheric games available on the console, in stark contrast to the brighter PC version.

With the recent release of version 2.0 of the PSX TC, which adds the full set of levels from the PSX version of Final Doom, there has been some talk of porting even more official levels to the TC. PSX Doom: The Lost Levels is a community project that will do just that, attempting to make authentic conversions of maps from all of the classic Doom games.

This will be released as an add-on for the TC and not integrated as a part of it. Level progression is undecided at this time; it can either override the existing progression, adding the new conversions seamlessly, or it can be a standalone episode. If you have a preference, please make it known in the thread.

Converting Maps

This is a little guide for converting a map to PSX style. First up, your final map's format must be ZDoom's Doom in Hexen or UDMF. See the ZDoom wiki for information on these formats and conversion tools if you're not familiar with them. Use whichever you're most comfortable working with, neither has any major advantage over the other for this project and the TC uses both formats. You'll need an editor capable of loading png graphics from .pk3 files to use the PSX resources.

As Gez put it, this is sort of a "Doom the Way Williams Did", and we're aiming for authenticity. Unfortunately, since we can't target the original engine, we can't be 100% certain our conversions would have run on it. None-the-less, below is a quick list of things that you'll want to ensure your map complies with, to give it the feeling that it could've been an official map.


Texturing

I hope your editor of choice has a find and replace option. The PSX version has plenty of textures which are equivalent to the PC textures (or more specifically, patches in most cases), however all of them use different names. All maps should use PSX textures exclusively, as many of them have added grit or other changes compared to the PC textures. In the event that the PSX version has no equivalent texture, turn to the existing maps for inspiration on how to retexture your map. Keep in mind that the E4, Doom 2, and Final Doom maps rarely had significant texture changes, compared to the original Doom maps ported from the Jaguar version.


Sector Heights and Exploits

Extreme sector heights were often toned down for the PSX version. See The Crusher (MAP06/MAP36) as an example of this. Try to keep your heights in the 300s at maximum.

Self-referencing sector tricks were removed; chances are the PSX engine wasn't capable of reproducing them. Either remove these entirely, replace them with something else (an invisible bridge replaced by a visible bridge, for example) if they're vital to the level's gameplay.


Monsters

The PSX had limited RAM, and a consequence of this is that the monster variety was often reduced in Doom 2 and Final Doom maps. Try to limit the number of unique monster types in the maps, for example a map which original used barons, hell knights, revenants, and mancubi might only use hell knights and revenants in the PSX version.

On the other hand, some Doom 2 monsters were added to the Ultimate Doom maps on skill 4, and you have access to the nightmare spectre (actor 3000), which originally reused the demon's frames and as such took up no additional space in RAM.

No arch-viles, unfortunately. They've been replaced by a bloody chain sprite, so be sure to replace their actor with something more fitting in your conversions if necessary.


Lighting

PSX lighting is significantly darker than the PC version. Look at the existing maps and compare them with their PC counterparts for examples of the values you should be using. In general, sectors are about 3/4 as bright in the PSX version, although these values sometimes need adjustments based on the light color being used.

For colored lighting, the TC includes an ACS library which corresponds to the PSX version's LIGHTS lump. Kaiser made an html page showing these lights, which I've fixed up and uploaded to my webspace here:

PSX Color Chart

Simply add 1000 to the light # listed there, use it as a sector tag and that sector will automatically be colored. For sectors which already have tags, you will need to write your own script to color them. Alternatively, you can add the color directly to the sector properties if you're using UDMF. In either case, be sure to only use colors that were available in the LIGHTS lump.

Sector light fade effects need to be done in ACS. Here is an example script from MAP03:

code:
script 501 open { while (1) { Light_Fade (17,0,140); Light_Fade (2135,0,140); delay(140); Light_Fade (17,200,140); Light_Fade (2135,200,140); delay(140); } }


Reverb

For reverb, add two 9048 - Sound Environment things to your map. Tag one 1515 and the other one 1516. Set 1515's argument 1 to 7. An ACS library in the TC will take over from there when your map is loaded.

fenderc01 has a bit more to say about reverb:


fenderc01 said:
Something I would like to make note of for the existing TC, and new levels to come, is that reverb is not totally dependent on whether or not the player is under the F_SKY1 ceiling texture. For instance, there are a few areas outside that have a ceiling, but no reverb, so they had to be "fenced off" from the rest of the level so they would not have the reverb applied. I did this for the original 59 levels by playing through and making note of certain areas that didn't have reverb. I don't think it was ever done for the Final Doom levels, but I could be wrong. If this doesn't make sense, I can try to clarify more.

Another thing, is the use of different reverb effects. If I recall, there are 3 different effects that are applied. There is only 1 effect applied per level, but the effect that is used varies from level to level. If you want to see what I mean, listen to the reverb on MAP01 with headphones and compare it to the reverb on MAP03. I don't think this was taken into consideration with Final Doom either, but once again, I could be wrong about that too. I can look into it more, if need be, or someone else can if they're up to it.

These are two things I've been meaning to put out there, but kept forgetting to do. That's all I have to add for now.




Bugs

Small map bugs were occasionally fixed in the PSX version. Things like stuck monsters, missing textures, etc.


Use Your Best Judgment

Lastly, there's no hard written rule here, but these maps are targeting a platform from 1995, which was in some ways more limiting than the PCs the games original ran on. If something seems like it would've been too complex, don't be afraid to make alterations.

Map List

Claimed maps have the mappers name in parenthesis, bold maps are completed.

Ultimate Doom
Hell Keep [PC] - (NoneeLlama)
Slough of Despair - (NoneeLlama)
Dis - (BaronOfStuff)
Warrens
They Will Repent
Against Thee Wickedly
And Hell Followed
Fear

Doom 2
Downtown
Industrial Zone
Gotcha!
The Chasm
The Spirit World
The Living End
Icon of Sin
Wolfenstein
Grosse

Master Levels
Titan Manor [MANOR.WAD]
Trapped on Titan [TTRAP.WAD]
The Garrison [GARRISON.WAD]
Black Tower [BLACKTWR.WAD]
Bloodsea Keep [BLOODSEA.WAD] - (Dragonsbrethren)
Mephisto's Maosoleum [MEPHISTO.WAD]
The Express Elevator to Hell [TEETH.WAD MAP31]
Bad Dream [TEETH.WAD MAP32]

TNT
Power Control
Hanger
Open Season
Prison
Metal
Stronghold
Redemption
Storage Facility
Steel Works
Dead Zone [secret exit to Pharaoh]
Mill
Shipping/Respawning
Central Processing
Administration Center
Habitat
Baron's Den
Mount Pain
River Styx
Last Call
Pharaoh [secret exit to Caribbean]
Caribbean

Plutonia
Well of Souls - (Dragonsbrethren)
Caged
Caughtyard
Realm
Abattoire
Hunted
Speed
The Crypt
Genesis
The Twilight [secret exit to Cyberden]
The Omen
Compound
Neurosphere
NME
Slayer
Impossible Mission
Tombstone
The Final Frontier
The Temple of Darkness
Bunker
Anti-Christ
The Sewers
Odyssey of Noises
The Gateway of Hell
Cyberden
Go 2 It

Last edited by Dragonsbrethren on 11-27-12 at 17:43

Old Post 11-25-12 21:20 #
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Impboy4
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Shouldn't mappers also be allowed to simplify geometry too? Also what about cutting off portions of the level and/or adding new areas?

Old Post 11-25-12 22:46 #
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fenderc01
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Something I would like to make note of for the existing TC, and new levels to come, is that reverb is not totally dependent on whether or not the player is under the F_SKY1 ceiling texture. For instance, there are a few areas outside that have a ceiling, but no reverb, so they had to be "fenced off" from the rest of the level so they would not have the reverb applied. I did this for the original 59 levels by playing through and making note of certain areas that didn't have reverb. I don't think it was ever done for the Final Doom levels, but I could be wrong. If this doesn't make sense, I can try to clarify more.

Another thing, is the use of different reverb effects. If I recall, there are 3 different effects that are applied. There is only 1 effect applied per level, but the effect that is used varies from level to level. If you want to see what I mean, listen to the reverb on MAP01 with headphones and compare it to the reverb on MAP03. I don't think this was taken into consideration with Final Doom either, but once again, I could be wrong about that too. I can look into it more, if need be, or someone else can if they're up to it.

These are two things I've been meaning to put out there, but kept forgetting to do. That's all I have to add for now.

Old Post 11-26-12 00:24 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Impboy4 said:
Shouldn't mappers also be allowed to simplify geometry too? Also what about cutting off portions of the level and/or adding new areas?

How often does this actually happen in the PSX levels? I'm having a hard time remembering many instances of it myself. I know I recently went through all of the Plutonia maps and only one insignificant area got cut, I'm guessing because it gave a pretty long line of sight that the PSX renderer couldn't cope with. There were actually some minor additions made in Plutonia.

Certainly no alterations the size of those made in Jaguar Doom were present. (That brings up a point, if anyone wants to do PSX-ized versions of the maps that were massively cut down in the Jaguar version, go for it.)


fenderc01 said:
Something I would like to make note of for the existing TC, and new levels to come, is that reverb is not totally dependent on whether or not the player is under the F_SKY1 ceiling texture. For instance, there are a few areas outside that have a ceiling, but no reverb, so they had to be "fenced off" from the rest of the level so they would not have the reverb applied. I did this for the original 59 levels by playing through and making note of certain areas that didn't have reverb. I don't think it was ever done for the Final Doom levels, but I could be wrong. If this doesn't make sense, I can try to clarify more.

Another thing, is the use of different reverb effects. If I recall, there are 3 different effects that are applied. There is only 1 effect applied per level, but the effect that is used varies from level to level. If you want to see what I mean, listen to the reverb on MAP01 with headphones and compare it to the reverb on MAP03. I don't think this was taken into consideration with Final Doom either, but once again, I could be wrong about that too. I can look into it more, if need be, or someone else can if they're up to it.

These are two things I've been meaning to put out there, but kept forgetting to do. That's all I have to add for now.


I never really took notice to this before. I'll have to mention it in the reverb section.

Old Post 11-26-12 00:57 #
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BlueFireZ88
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The episode level structure for the original should be left alone. I figured the point of the TC would be to replicate the PS1 game as much as possible on PC, and level structure would be one factor.

As for The Lost Levels, it would at least make sense to keep the Doom 1 and 2 levels together like the originals. Not so sure about the ML or FD structure since there are so many levels there.

I'm still opting that Industrial Zone and The Chasm be split in two to keep the consistent idea of console storage space (since that's what they had to do for Doom 2 GBA). Also, Industrial Zone Part B had a completely new opening area which isn't present in the PC version.

Also, has it been considered to craft new and original levels for the TC (something similar to how Threshold of Pain, Twilight Descends, and Redemption Denied were all original to the PS1 port).

Maybe some fan favorite mod levels could get the PS1 treatment with levels like:
Neith
Under Neith
Doomsday of UAC
Dante's Gate
Crossing Acheron

Old Post 11-26-12 01:05 #
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fenderc01
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BlueFireZ88 said:
The episode level structure for the original should be left alone. I figured the point of the TC would be to replicate the PS1 game as much as possible on PC, and level structure would be one factor.

Agreed


BlueFireZ88 said:
Also, has it been considered to craft new and original levels for the TC (something similar to how Threshold of Pain, Twilight Descends, and Redemption Denied were all original to the PS1 port).

Maybe some fan favorite mod levels could get the PS1 treatment with levels like:
Neith
Under Neith
Doomsday of UAC
Dante's Gate
Crossing Acheron


Sounds like a great idea!

All this talk about a "lost levels" is exciting!


fenderc01 said:
Something I would like to make note of for the existing TC, and new levels to come, is that reverb is not totally dependent on whether or not the player is under the F_SKY1 ceiling texture. For instance, there are a few areas outside that have a ceiling, but no reverb, so they had to be "fenced off" from the rest of the level so they would not have the reverb applied.

I should also add that there are some areas with the F_SKY1 ceiling texture that do have reverb. A good example I just ran across today is the central "courtyard area" that surrounds the blue key in MAP04.

Old Post 11-26-12 01:46 #
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Gez
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BlueFireZ88 said:
Dante's Gate
Crossing Acheron



As I said earlier, Dante's Gate and Crossing Acheron are part of the "Inferno" series from Dr Sleep, the rest of which is in the Master Levels (plus Fear from Thy Flesh Consumed, originally named CHARON).

Likewise, levels like TEETH.WAD or MEPHISTO.WAD are from the Cabal series, with five levels freely available on the idgames archive.

Old Post 11-26-12 03:40 #
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