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Tormentor667
Senior Member


Posts: 1977
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I already said it on ZDoom, but this project deserves it a second time: Awesome job guys, from all of you. This is one of the best executed projects that I have played and seen so far. It perfectly catches the original feel and you can really see that a lot of thought and work has gone into this.

Congratulations to the team and all who contributed, I felt like being 9 years old again when I first played Doom and scared myself like hell. Thank you for creating this and making this possible, it is a real blast and pleasure to play <3 :)

Old Post 12-12-11 12:14 #
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ellmo
Custom Title


Posts: 1647
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Tormentor667 said:
I already said it on ZDoom, but this project deserves it a second time: Awesome job guys, from all of you. This is one of the best executed projects that I have played and seen so far. It perfectly catches the original feel and you can really see that a lot of thought and work has gone into this.

Congratulations to the team and all who contributed, I felt like being 9 years old again when I first played Doom and scared myself like hell. Thank you for creating this and making this possible, it is a real blast and pleasure to play <3 :)



Wow, I'm really surprised with this opinion, I really never thought the man behind "needs more detail" would enjoy this Wad. You don't even know how good it feels to be proven completely wrong about it :) I hope you don't hold this against me.

I'm sure I sepak on behalf of the entire team, when I say: we're glad you liked it and that you really felt like being thrown 18 years back!

Old Post 12-12-11 13:12 #
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General Rainbow Bacon
may have been DoomHero85 at some point


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Let me post my review now.

This is one of the best megawads EVER! I also feel like I've been thrown back to when Doom was new to me. I love the secrets, they are all just as clever or more than Id's. I always felt that it would be awesome if Id made an alternate set of Doom maps. Effectively, here is that "dream" project I always wanted. I seriously think we should do more megawads like this in the future as Id styled levels never get old.

Old Post 12-12-11 16:22 #
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ellmo
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DoomHero85 said:
I seriously think we should do more megawads like this in the future as Id styled levels never get old.


D2TWiD is only a matter of time.
Episode 4 of DTWiD is most probably only a matter of time.

Old Post 12-12-11 18:21 #
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Captain Toenail
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Only problem is Doom2 doesn't really have any obvious consistent themes between the levels like the episodes in Doom did. There are episodes; spaceport > city > hell, but they are made up of distinct levels. Attempts to create d2twid might end up with maps consisting of a mish-mash of Doom2 level parts, or those that don't really bring to mind the original iwad at all. It will be a lot harder to pull off. :/

Old Post 12-12-11 18:34 #
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valkiriforce
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Captain Toenail said:
Only problem is Doom2 doesn't really have any obvious consistent themes between the levels like the episodes in Doom did. There are episodes; spaceport > city > hell, but they are made up of distinct levels. Attempts to create d2twid might end up with maps consisting of a mish-mash of Doom2 level parts, or those that don't really bring to mind the original iwad at all. It will be a lot harder to pull off. :/

Hence why it's a challenge worth taking up.

Old Post 12-12-11 18:37 #
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esselfortium
A Major Doomworld Concern


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Doom's original episode 2 is made up of a lot of distinct levels with heavily varying themes, as well. The style of each mapper's geometry can still be mimicked in new contexts.

For a while now we've been doing some thinking about how to tackle Doom II, and a huge part of it is in the gameplay itself.

Old Post 12-12-11 18:43 #
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Tarnsman
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I'd love to see Episode 4 The Id Way.


Captain Toenail said:
Only problem is Doom2 doesn't really have any obvious consistent themes between the levels like the episodes in Doom did. There are episodes; spaceport > city > hell, but they are made up of distinct levels. Attempts to create d2twid might end up with maps consisting of a mish-mash of Doom2 level parts, or those that don't really bring to mind the original iwad at all. It will be a lot harder to pull off. :/


But there are still general design themes that exist in each episode. For example: the city levels follow a generally open with distinct areas theme. (The only level in the city maps that doesn't feature a wide open layout of some sort is Map 17). Contrasted with the starting levels which are much smaller in terms of perceived scale and the final levels which are a combination of the two (wide open rooms, but with reduced playing area through things like caging the player in or damaging floors).

Old Post 12-12-11 19:33 #
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valkiriforce
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Remember this thread - http://www.doomworld.com/vb/doom-ge...american-mcgee/

And this one - http://www.doomworld.com/vb/showthr...821#post1028821

Should help for development (besides looking at Doom II maps 10000 times).

Old Post 12-12-11 19:50 #
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Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


Posts: 11001
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With Plutonia Revisited and Plutonia 2, I guess we won't need PTWTCBD. But if there ever is a TTWTTD, I really wonder what the design guidelines would be. :p

Joking aside, HTWRD would interest me more than D2TWID. But it's unlikely to happen.

Old Post 12-12-11 20:15 #
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skillsaw
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Posts: 180
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I just finished playing through this. You guys did a great job, the maps feel very authentic and were enjoyable to play. The boss maps were especially well done, IMO.

I felt like damaging floors may have been overused on a couple maps in E2 and E3 but that's really the only complaint I have.

I'd love to eventually see (and perhaps participate in) a D2TWID. Making a Suburbs or Citadel style sandbox map would be a fun challenge.

Old Post 12-12-11 20:15 #
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Tarnsman
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Gez said:
TTWTTD, I really wonder what the design guidelines would be.

Massive maps with really hit or miss feels to them? Also I totally call dibs on making Habitat 2.0, I feel only my mapping skills are shitty enough to top it.

Old Post 12-12-11 20:24 #
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Sodaholic
I feel justified yet disgusted with myself at the same time


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Something I've wanted to say about this project for a while, but put off for a while to see if it was an opinion I still held in the project's finished state.

In the project's finished state, I still hold the same opinion. Sure, the texturing and architecture looks like id's maps, but the layouts and gameplay feel nothing like it. Honestly, it feels like these maps would be better off in FreeDoom than advertised as id-like.

Every room feels bland and meaningless, it just doesn't have that same "adventure" feel as the original maps. What I mean is, the layouts themselves just feel like generic fan-made layouts, they just don't capture the same feel at all as the originals do. Plus, most of the maps just felt too big and complicated. They were just mazes, it didn't really feel like it was it's own unique place, the originals did. It felt like it had no sense of purpose in the rooms.

My point is, I think that DTWiD proves that it's near impossible for fans to create something that truly feels like an id-product from scratch. Probably best to try to focus on original, new ideas, rather than try to revisit old ones.


I understand I didn't give any particular reasons, but I just can't. It follows the id mapping guidelines well, but just something, I can't put my finger on it, just feels to me like it lacks the very essence that the original maps had. Surely I'm not the only one who felt like this?

Old Post 12-12-11 20:50 #
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purist
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If it's something you can't put your finger on perhaps it's a feeling invoked by nostalgia from the original game that has failed to be recreated in your case.

Something that the project could never really capture would be the feeling of possibility and wonder that you got from playing Doom back in the day. Partly, this is not possible because everyone knows the game inside out by now and partly this is not possible because going too far left field would go against the purist aims of the project.

In this respect, making a TC, PC or mod would be more conductive to this end since the player would be unsure of the game limits and the possibilites of what could be thrown at them next.

DTWiD, from what I've seen of it so far (admittedly not a great deal), has achieved it's aims up to the limits of it's own manifesto. Which I think is all you can hope for. Sure, a new monster in E2M8 may evoke a reaction more akin to how we felt the first time we tackled the Tower of Babel, but it would be against the principles of the project.

Old Post 12-12-11 21:13 #
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Phobus
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Gez said:
With Plutonia Revisited and Plutonia 2, I guess we won't need PTWTCBD. But if there ever is a TTWTTD, I really wonder what the design guidelines would be. :p

Joking aside, HTWRD would interest me more than D2TWID. But it's unlikely to happen.



Yeah, I think the community has proved that we can do Plutonia. As for TNT - perhaps TNT2 will cover it? I can't imagine why you'd want such a thing to be honest :P


Thinking about it - I can't say I'd be too interested in participating in any other "X The Way Y Did" projects, unless it was an open-ended community project where every participant could pick a mapper to try and emulate (their mapping idol or whatever), as I think the outcome would be quite interesting... but I don't know who I'd pick to mimic myself :\

Old Post 12-12-11 22:42 #
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Tango
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so, when playing this, if i don't have the identical feelings i had playing doom for the first time when i was 7, that means the project failed right? am i supposed to turn into a 7 year old again?

Old Post 12-13-11 01:04 #
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esselfortium
A Major Doomworld Concern


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Wait, Tango isn't 7 anymore?

Old Post 12-13-11 01:05 #
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Tango
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:(

Old Post 12-13-11 01:06 #
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Megamur
Senior Member


Posts: 1400
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ellmo said:
I can relate to that by reverse-analogy, as I don't really find it fun anymore to blast through HR styled megawads, that copy the same patterns all the time. Throughout the 18 years I have proved to myself many times that I can deal with stupid 4-archvile traps, chaingunners on platforms far-far away, multiple cyberdemons in tight places and so on. I lost interest in challenge, so I play most of the classic megawads on HMP or even HNTR, because pressing MOUSE1 and running all the time stopped being fun 5 years ago.


Although I still appreciate a challenge from time to time, for the most part, I wholeheartedly agree with this and wish more mappers would share the sentiment. Not all of us are trying to be COMPET-N DOOMGods who only ever get hit by Arch-Viles when we're purposefully trying to do a jump-shortcut. Some of us play to get lost in a different world and take in the atmosphere--two things that are a bit difficult when the "atmosphere" consists of a mountain of Revenants running towards you.

I'm still waiting on the bugfix version before I play this, but I certainly appreciate the sentiment of the WAD so far. :)

Old Post 12-13-11 01:51 #
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el zee
killer without a cause


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I really enjoyed playing this, it felt like playing original doom in an parallel universe, where stuff is familiar but it's actually not. Also the boss levels were neat with new twists, e3m8 was the best spider boss fight I've had.

Good work guys.

Old Post 12-13-11 03:18 #
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Sodaholic
I feel justified yet disgusted with myself at the same time


Posts: 2710
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Seriously, am I the only one that played this that felt like the wad felt nothing like an id levelset at all? It looked kinda similar to id levels, but it just didn't feel anything like them at all when playing.

Am I the only one with this view on the project?

Old Post 12-13-11 03:34 #
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Fisk
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Yes.

...Well, you and 40oz probably.

Old Post 12-13-11 03:39 #
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iori
#legacy bastard


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I agree Soda, this wad is excrement.

Old Post 12-13-11 03:39 #
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Marnetmar
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Sodaholic said:
Seriously, am I the only one that played this that felt like the wad felt nothing like an id levelset at all? It looked kinda similar to id levels, but it just didn't feel anything like them at all when playing.

Am I the only one with this view on the project?



If DTWID and Doom's levels were to switch places you'd probably be posting the exact same thing right now.

The truth is that while designs and appearances can be brought back, nothing can bring back that same feeling you had when you played Doom for the first time. Another factor is that everyone who mapped for DTWID probably had different perspectives on what is and isn't id like. Me and Hellbent are probably the only two that seem to fully agree with each other.

Old Post 12-13-11 03:42 #
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valkiriforce
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Yeah, you can only do so much to imitate the style of an author, but I don't think anything can truly pass for something that could be mistaken for what was in the game itself. Even if John Romero secretly made a map for this project I'm sure everyone would be like, "Ah, that's not what they would have done!"

Anyway, having fun with this so far despite said points. :)

Old Post 12-13-11 04:17 #
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Phobus
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valkiriforce said:
Even if John Romero secretly made a map for this project I'm sure everyone would be like, "Ah, that's not what they would have done!"

Well, the secrets out!


@Sodaholic: The reason you see all of that in Doom and not in this project is because you've had the better part of 18 years to attach sentiments and ideas to the maps that were first formed in childhood. I first saw Doom at around the age of 3 or 4 and that's still got some influence over how I see the game today (Demons are Pigs to me, and always will be). Quite a few of the levels in this megawad really do the job quite well, while some others really don't. You could probably cherry pick a map or two from each episode and slot it into the original episodes appropriately and find it does fit in comfortably.

Old Post 12-13-11 07:22 #
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GooberMan
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Sodaholic said:
Seriously, am I the only one that played this that felt like the wad felt nothing like an id levelset at all? It looked kinda similar to id levels, but it just didn't feel anything like them at all when playing.

Am I the only one with this view on the project?


I can't believe I'm agreeing with Sodaholic here.

Love the visuals. The gameplay's a bit meh. I know y'all put a lot of effort in to keeping that style, and I'd say it's mostly a hit there. But the gameplay is more like a modern set of episode replacements rather than additional levels of the original map set.

I think a physical size restriction (and perhaps even a filesize restriction) would have gone a long way towards that, as it would have forced the authors to make every sector and grid square count. Actually, that's a good suggestion for a Chocolate Doom feature - force a 4MB mode. The hardware requirements were absolutely a factor in dictating how id made their levels, and aiming to run decently on minspec is something that would be fantastic to take in to account.

Old Post 12-13-11 09:44 #
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GBT3
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Same style, design, layout and gameplay. Doom nor DTWID didn't had any mystic feeling at all, just the myth and trademark oh how many and how well they were played for the first time. The only difference between IWAD and this mapset is that IWAD is old and people are most attached to it by playing it first, so they will see in it things what doesn't exist, "so feeling, so dark, so scary, so rainbows, so magic, so other monster spaghetti atmosphere" etc. Praise the legend and feed the myth... not. They seeking mystic fluid of original three episodes essence which is their subjective, yet unified among others by nostalgy perceiving of playing it for the first time in "these old good days".

It's like people wants to say:

"DTWID is new, released and that's biggest blasphemy and main flaw of this project why failed when compared to original game. Some profany touched their holy grail"

As for me, it's good. Better than expected and going even more fun through episodes (E1 is good, E2 is very good, E3 is best, unlike original game where E1 was best, E2 was very good and E3 was just good). Everything what should be is present and in some cases even better that original. But I'm still waiting for E4. ;-)

Last edited by GBT3 on 12-13-11 at 10:45

Old Post 12-13-11 10:36 #
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Tormentor667
Senior Member


Posts: 1977
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ellmo said:
You don't even know how good it feels to be proven completely wrong about it :) I hope you don't hold this against me.

Absolutely not ;) I am actually a big fan of retro-wads like Rex' "Phobos Revisited" or Fiend's "Needs more Detail" (as long as they are well done) as I really like that old school feeling.

But with DTWID you have really set a new mark. It's really enjoyable and it's really some kind of art considering the amount of analysis and thought has been put into this - so good work is good work, no matter the amount of detail :)

BTW, currently at Episode 2, it's fun ;)

Old Post 12-13-11 11:36 #
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hex11
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Using advanced candelabra analysis, I have determined that dtwid.wad contains close to twice as much mystical energy as the original registered IWAD. After chanting some obscure Unix shell commands and sacrificing a few virgins, the following results appeared:

e1m1: 1
e1m3: 4
e1m5: 1
e1m6: 2
e1m7: 8
E1 total: 16 (vs. 8 in doom.wad)

e2m2: 4
e2m3: 2
e2m4: 11
e2m5: 7
e2m7: 2
e2m9: 6
E2 total: 32 (vs. 15 in doom.wad)

e3m1: 2
e3m3: 5
e3m4: 3
e3m7: 4
e3m9: 6
E3 total: 20 (vs. 10 in doom.wad)

I for one can hardly wait to make it to E2M4!

Old Post 12-13-11 12:17 #
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