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GBT3
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It must be something with detail clues, to marked ones important areas where player focus his attention at some places to help with the flow of playing/running through the level...

Old Post 12-13-11 13:39 #
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Phml
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Sodaholic said:
Seriously, am I the only one that played this that felt like the wad felt nothing like an id levelset at all? It looked kinda similar to id levels, but it just didn't feel anything like them at all when playing.

Am I the only one with this view on the project?



I'm with you here. I thought it was much closer to Wonderful Doom or NMD than DOOM.wad.

It is, of course, easy to say that and not elaborate, but I really can't be bothered. Just look at E1M1. In Doom, you can name a distinct purpose for each and every room. You've got the starting position that right away introduces you to the concept of varying heights, with floors (including steps) and ceiling at different heights. Walking forward on your right is a window foreshadowing the possibility of going outdoors and a strange looking item, and further still in that line of sight another window tying back to the main area. On the left a bunch of stairs leading to a green armor that is, much like the blue armor, not only obvious to spot but directly drawing attention. Left goes up, right goes down, another thing that helps reinforcing the height concept.

The main path is north, in the direction the player is facing, but not directly in front of him, not directly visible thanks to a pillar, which lets the player's attention
go to the left and right rather than plunge forward. Following that is a sharp corner and right after it, so it's really in your face, the first door. Opening it shows the first enemy in a well lit area, far enough that you can see it moving towards you and shooting, with no visual clutter blocking your line of sight. At the same time you've got on the sides some computer detail, making a stark contrast with the uniform walls of before.

After that you've got that path leading to the next room, with a second zombieman to really make that enemy concept sink in. And just as you get used to that you've got that completely different looking thing on a tall tower far away that starts throwing fireballs at you. All the while being in a different looking room, completely open yet with a zigzaging path that puts you at risk to fall into the slime (yet another new concept). At the same time, you've got that window that ties back into the very first area and puts the whole thing together as a building, some space-looking place as opposed to a random maze.

Going forward and stepping back into the darkness, a different and smaller looking door leads to an imp, this time on ground, which eventually can let it scratch the player, and barrels around, giving you the first situation in which you can kill a monster with that. More barrels on the sides, behind the midtextures, can help introduce the concept of, well, midtextures, and shooting through it. Well lit exit door, with the corresponding sign. Switch. Exit level.

It's worth noting during the whole thing, before the exit room you almost always have 128 pixels or more to move, basically lots of space to maneuver and get used to your bearings.

I could go on about the lightning or the secrets, or higher difficulties. There has been numerous better E1M1 analysis, and the point isn't to make one as such, but rather to say, this is what I personally saw when I first played E1M1 and this is what I can still see today. Those are things I can objectively point out and say, whether it's by design or by chance, it just worked as a gaming experience back then and still does as of today.

Now what happens if I try to do the same for DWITD E1M1?

From the start position, it seems more cramped. Not far in front of you you've got a wall, and two windows, and an additional window beyond the left window, without being able to see anything except the sky. Sky that is also seen right on top of the first room. You've got a path on the left that goes down and a path on the right that stays on the same level, computers and tech walls textures, green and brown on the walls and gray, white and brown and black on the floors and really that's quite a bit of visual clutter already. The brown flat from the first window blurs with the brown texture from the window behind, and so on.

Where do I go? What do I look at?

The path going down on the left is sort of pointing towards it being the main path, which is good as that's what happens. Going to the room on the right first you've got that lit alcove that doesn't seem to serve any purpose. Finally we see stairs leading upwards, hugging the wall, almost if they're hiding, shameful to be seen, a stark contrast from Doom's E1M1 stairs that are almost pompous in the way you can't ignore them. Looking back doesn't do much either, leading to that small lowered meaningless alcove.

Now picking up the green armor and looking to the outdoor area is a bit better, you've got that outdoor area, that shotgun telling you there's definitely something to be done here, that same tie-in to the building as in the original ; and yet it is so cramped, everything huddled together. The window on the opposite side of the building is ridiculously small and shows some confusing floors and that complicated tech wall texture. To even see the shotgun you have to press yourself onto the barrier. There's two different heights of brown floor in a relatively short space and as a result you just can't clearly see what's in there. Two doors on the sides of the slime show possible entry points, that part is good.

Moving back to the main path you've got the same sharp corner and door that I like, no argument here, and after that a slime room. The layout is nice, the following exit is slightly to the left so you can be inclined to just move forward and find the secret, and the brown path circling the walls while leaving the slime in front, in your face, is another nice way to introduce that. What sort of ruins that is when you've got your first zombieman that pops up five feet away as you move forward, from behind the corner. Why not have him on the other side of the slime? It really feels like a missed opportunity.

Moving on to the next room, with stairs going back up (could argue it's not very consistent going down then up right away, but even I would have to admit that'd be a nitpick), and the next room is... Um. Visual clutter all over the place, two imps on platforms so neither of them is going to scratch you in melee, that blue floor drawing attention to the back of the room, that itself leads to nothing save for windows that are too high to see anything worth looking.

Going to the stairs on the left, that first step with the same metal texture as the floor seemed fairly odd to me, coming out with a room with two barrels and a zombieman (again, good to me). Pushing a bit forward there's an outdoor window to the left, which almost seems like as an afterthought, as really by this point are you going to stop and look at that? The exit door is lit, has that specific texture, can be seen for a while away, there's an exit sign, that's all good. Stepping inside, white on white switch texture... Eh.

Another complaint about the textures is that whereas Doom's E1M1 put widely different looks on each room, in here you've really just got either the green walls or the startan walls, with some degree of detail thrown in. What's kind of intriguing to me is that looking at it in the editor, I now see DWITD E1M1 leaves almost as much minimum room to move as Doom E1M1 ; and yet it just feels so much more constricted, as a whole or taken apart (save for the slime room which, again, I like).

Now perhaps the argument could be made we aren't in 1993, anyone going to play this is well aware of how Doom plays and unlikely to play on skill 2 anyway, and there has to be some kind of difference for things to remain interesting rather than just an exact copy, and that's probably a valid argument. At the same time, introducing so many new concepts Doom was built as a learning experience to an extent, and trying to emulate the id mapping style without taking that in consideration can lead to a dissonance to some of us.

Besides, chalking up negative opinions about this wad as mere nostalgia is well and good, but can anyone honestly say nostalgia hasn't any positive effect either? Anything oldschool tends to have a warmer reception regardless of actual quality, which doesn't necessarily mean it's not also great stuff in its own right, but certainly does play a role in overall approval.

Old Post 12-13-11 14:01 #
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ellmo
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Phml said:
Just look at E1M1. In Doom, you can name a distinct purpose for each and every room. You've got the starting position that right away introduces you to the concept of varying heights, with floors (including steps) and ceiling at different heights. Walking forward on your right is a window foreshadowing the possibility of going outdoors and a strange looking item, and further still in that line of sight another window tying back to the main area. On the left a bunch of stairs leading to a green armor that is, much like the blue armor, not only obvious to spot but directly drawing attention. Left goes up, right goes down, another thing that helps reinforcing the height concept.

Essel's E1M1 starts you in a semi-outside location, with steps leading down and steps leading up to an area a with a window overlooking your starting position and a balcony showing anoter open courtyard location with a shotgun. It also introduces the player to light variation in the first room on the right. It has a nukage pool not far from the start to introduce the concept of hazardouse environment. All of the features that made such an impression on us while playing the E1M1 in 1993 are there. People just don't notice them anymore.

A lot of thought and research was put into defining the features the original maps had. Sometimes I think people judge this project without even realizing.


Phml said:
From the start position, it seems more cramped.

"Cramped" is an alias for "I can't put my finger on it, but I dont like it"

Old Post 12-13-11 15:03 #
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40oz
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No it's definitely cramped. There's a lot of 160 width hallways with lots of sharp turns, and that huge i-have-no-idea-what-it-is occupies like 70% of the whole last room. The other thing I really didnt like was the thing placement, but I don't feel like getting into this again. DTWID is done and I'm moving on to better things.

Old Post 12-13-11 17:12 #
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esselfortium
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Let me get this straight: 40oz and Phml both say my map is shit?

I've never been prouder in my life, thanks guys :)

Old Post 12-13-11 17:20 #
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ellmo
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40oz said:
(...) and that huge i-have-no-idea-what-it-is occupies like 70% of the whole last room.

Yeah, that stupid construct right in front of you, destroys the layout of the room. Complete shit.

http://i.imgur.com/PVTyA.png

id would never...

Old Post 12-13-11 18:14 #
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DeathevokatioN
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esselfortium said:

Yeah, things have changed pretty significantly from the original public alpha. Only 11 of the alpha's 27 maps appear in the final release at all, and some of those 11 that have been kept have been changed and improved upon pretty significantly.

Hope you enjoy this when you get around to playing it :)

That is good to hear! And thanks, I hope to enjoy it too.

And after seeing Stewboy's map not make it into the Alpha I actually cut a deal with him to it use for No Hope if it didn't make it into the final version of DtwID, but I'm glad to see it here because that is a killer map. :)

When I play this again I'll try not to see it as a something that's meant to replace Doom, but more of something that could be an expansion to the Doom 1 universe, if that makes any sense at all.

Old Post 12-13-11 18:15 #
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hobomaster22
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Phml said:
An essay on E1M1


I agree. I thought there were better E1M1 submissions for the project but obviously everyone doesn't agree.


esselfortium said:
Let me get this straight: 40oz and Phml both say my map is shit?

I've never been prouder in my life, thanks guys :)



Don't take it personally. (I don't think you really are.) I've only attempted maps for E1 and it seems to be a little bit of skill, inspiration, and a lot of luck. I mean saying "I R ROMERO!!!11" after over analyzing the crap out of his maps and taking to your editor is well, probably not going to work. You're not only trying to emulate his style, but his perception, knowledge, and state of mind at the time. This is, after all, a creative process. So many variables are affecting what you're doing.

I also don't make maps with an idea of how it's going to look. I just... map. For example, I might make a deathmatch map in a single day. I just open the editor and start drawing. Hopefully, at the end of the day, I'm really happy with how it turned out and it's awesome. But what if I didn't feel like opening the map editor that day, and pushed it off to the next day? A week later? Would I have created the same map? Something similar? Probably not. Brain hurtz now.

Old Post 12-13-11 18:20 #
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Mr. Freeze
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esselfortium said:
Let me get this straight: 40oz and Phml both say my map is shit?

I've never been prouder in my life, thanks guys :)



I *hate* when people say this. It usually sends a message of "Improve my material? People are going to hate it anyway, lol why bother?". I like you and all Essel, but seriously?


ellmo said:
"Cramped" is an alias for "I can't put my finger on it, but I dont like it"


Really? Well let me elaborate: E1M1 *is* cramped. Not to the point where it detracts from the map's quality (as 40oz is saying), but the confinement *is* there. It feels a lot more mazelike than E1M1 should be (particularly in the final rooms), and that throws me off a bit.

Old Post 12-13-11 18:27 #
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esselfortium
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FWIW, my e1m1 was intended to capture as many as possible of the elements I found that made Romero's e1m1 work so well, while shifting them into new contexts and avoiding directly duplicating any of them. It's not e1m1, obviously, but it's not supposed to be.


Mr. Freeze said:


I *hate* when people say this. It usually sends a message of "Improve my material? People are going to hate it anyway, lol why bother?". I like you and all Essel, but seriously?


Well, when you put it that way, sure. But that wasn't really the thought process, though I can see how it would easily be taken that way. I've taken advice from playtesters and other mappers in nearly everything I've ever done, I'm just not interested in feeding trolls.

Old Post 12-13-11 18:50 #
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Sodaholic
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esselfortium said:
my e1m1 was intended to capture as many as possible of the elements I found that made Romero's e1m1 work so well

Actually, out of all the episode 1 maps, I feel that yours was probably the most id-like. Still felt kinda different, but it definitely was closer in mood and atmosphere of the originals that the other maps I feel failed to capture.


esselfortium said:
I'm just not interested in feeding trolls.

I hope you're not including me in that category. :/

Old Post 12-13-11 19:00 #
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Justince
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Sodaholic said:



I hope you're not including me in that category. :/



No, just the person who's still obviously butthurt over the whole situation.

Old Post 12-13-11 19:17 #
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Phobus
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I have to admit I still don't see why quite so much focus went into E1 - particularly the huge drive to make an E1M1 replacement. Didn't anybody think that a theoretical 10th map would definitely not be the new E1M1? Then again, I remember complaining about people spending too much time pontificating on mapping theory and going off on stupid tangents about new resources rather than focusing on the actual project objective as was written back when this project started - long before I joined in with my one map.

It would appear that making a nostalgia-fueled project for this game in this community has obviously got up some people's noses.

Old Post 12-13-11 20:29 #
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Cell
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Cell said:

I've just spedmap'd something E4ish.


And I don't act like I didn't do so!
E4M1 sample

DTWiD succeeded for me. Not only because it re-represents the ceaseless, entire feeling of the classics I used to play back in 1994, but also, the magic of "being modded but still the same" is unexplicable, untouchable, still gorgeous as a feeling. I'm seriously doubted now about whether I'm gonna map oldskool or newskool next time. These WADs are the best for gaining inspiration.

Progressed up to E2M5, waiting for the next confrontation against that ugly cyborg skyscraper.

Old Post 12-13-11 20:36 #
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esselfortium
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Phobus said:
I have to admit I still don't see why quite so much focus went into E1 - particularly the huge drive to make an E1M1 replacement. Didn't anybody think that a theoretical 10th map would definitely not be the new E1M1? Then again, I remember complaining about people spending too much time pontificating on mapping theory and going off on stupid tangents about new resources rather than focusing on the actual project objective as was written back when this project started - long before I joined in with my one map.

It would appear that making a nostalgia-fueled project for this game in this community has obviously got up some people's noses.


Well, of course that's true. Given, though, that these were released as their own separate episodes rather than being literally shuffled into the existing ones somehow, having introductory maps and boss fights to bookend the levels makes as much sense here as it does for any other project: players expect to have them, and we enjoyed getting to make them :)

I think the "10th map" idea was more or less a guideline for the mappers to understand the intent of the project and how it differs from many of the already existing remake wads, and to avoid people making direct tributes to their favorite Doom scenes.

Old Post 12-13-11 20:42 #
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Phobus
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You say that, but you still made an E1M1 designed to do everything the original did :P This is also why I mentioned E2M4 being "creepy" as a bit of a problem in the beta stage (and that's ignoring the start of E3M1 being in pcorf's E3 map)

Old Post 12-13-11 21:14 #
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Marnetmar
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edit:
Marnetmar probably shouldn't post youtube videos telling people to shut up if he doesn't want this thread to devolve into a shitfest.

Thank you,
the management

Old Post 12-13-11 21:20 #
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esselfortium
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I wanted to accomplish the same things with a different map, to set the stage for our alternate-universe take on the game. Whether that was the best way of handling it is up for question of course, and I think there's probably some good arguments for either possibility.

Old Post 12-13-11 21:22 #
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Marcaek
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I do have to ask where the criticism was during development.

Last edited by Marcaek on 12-13-11 at 21:44

Old Post 12-13-11 21:23 #
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ellmo
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Phobus said:
You say that, but you still made an E1M1 designed to do everything the original did :P

To DO. Yes.
To LOOK. No.

Phobus said:
This is also why I mentioned E2M4 being "creepy" as a bit of a problem in the beta stage (and that's ignoring the start of E3M1 being in pcorf's E3 map)


The E3M1 easter-egg-ish area has been removed. As for E2M4, yes it was created as a tribute to the original Deimos Lab, but in the end it took the M4 slot because we wanted to shuffle the gameplay in consecutive maps, as it was done in Doom:

E2M1 - dynamic
E2M2 - exploration
E2M3 - dynamic
E2M4 - creepy

Last edited by ellmo on 12-13-11 at 21:29

Old Post 12-13-11 21:23 #
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Brewtal_Legend
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I've been quite enjoying this map set. I got sucked in from the get go. I really liked how e1m1 didn't have any enemies right away. It kinda kept me on edge waiting to see when I was going to encounter the first ones.

I think it has a really nice classic feel to it.

For the life of me, I couldn't find the yellow key or any secrets on level two. :( I wanted that chainsaw.

Some new original music would have been a definite plus though.

Old Post 12-13-11 21:36 #
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Phobus
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Marcaek said:
But I do have to ask where the criticism was during development.

I'm not saying anything I haven't already said before, as far as i'm aware. Personally, I'm happy with how the project has turned out, and I'm glad to have been part of something this good - I just hold a differing opinion to those who ended up deciding map orders and stuff as to how the "10th map" guideline was to be handled.

Old Post 12-13-11 21:37 #
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ellmo
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Phobus said:
I just hold a differing opinion to those who ended up deciding (...) as to how the "10th map" guideline was to be handled.

We decided starter maps and boss maps absolutely have to fit their unique slots, or episodes don't have any meaning... and episodes are incredibly important for Doom.

To be frank I don't remember anyone voting otherwise when we were having this discussion :/

Old Post 12-13-11 21:56 #
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Phobus
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I don't remember seeing this be a discussion, so I'm assuming this was on IRC or something.

Old Post 12-13-11 22:04 #
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Xaser
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The "10th map" guideline was deliberately broken in a couple of ways to make things feel coherent as an episode:

  • Start maps. In order to effectively introduce the episode, we did end up recreating some of the ideas that made up the original episodes' E*M1s (namely, E1M1's introduction of Doom geometry, E2M1's frequent use of teleporters, and E3M1's outdoor hellscapes). Since the idea was to have the episodes take place in the same setting, this was a tricky task since we effectively had to reintroduce the same three themes that everyone already knows and loves. Could we have done it without sticking to the same ideas? Possibly. But they'd still be dedicated intro maps thus breaking the "10th map" guideline.
  • End maps. Things just wouldn't feel right without a boss fight, IMO. ;)
  • Map ordering. In the end, the ordering for E2 in particular ended up closely mirroring its doom.wad counterpart, but it and the other episodes were ordered carefully to provide as coherent a progression as possible (again important for an episodic feel). I admit I had a heavy hand in this by ordering n' insisting that each map fits its particular slot's music, so as to not "ruin the mood." How odd would it have been to have Mental Ward in E2M3's slot blasting "Intermission from Doom" as you're running down those dark halls? :P


Sure, we could've stuck to the strict interpretation of the rule and released them as an unordered series of maps, but the end result really wouldn't have felt as polished. It's like what people were saying about the secret levels during beta: we ended up not picking odd or gimmicky maps for the secret slot and instead decided to choose the best maps, which struck some people as 'off' because they expected the secret map to be something out of the ordinary. I'm sure people would have gotten the same feeling had there been no explicit boss maps or start maps, either.

[EDIT] Post-sniped! Yeah, it was most likely an IRC-fueled discussion, since the channel came around right about the time when Essel started his E1 map and I retextured mine to make it not suck. Part of it was just me maintaining a 'current list' of maps I thought would fit, which more or less ended up as the final one (not without lots of team scrutiny of course ;). So my fault. :P

Old Post 12-13-11 22:07 #
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Melon
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I've been playing this wad over the last few days and really enjoyed it. Some levels were a lot tougher from pistol start than I was expecting, but then again so were the levels in the original Doom.

All in all I had some great fun, well done to everyone involved.

Old Post 12-13-11 23:38 #
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Melon said:
All in all I had some great fun...


Mission Accomplished!

Old Post 12-14-11 00:46 #
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Tormentor667
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ellmo said:
[..]because we wanted to shuffle the gameplay in consecutive maps, as it was done in Doom:

E2M1 - dynamic
E2M2 - exploration
E2M3 - dynamic
E2M4 - creepy



Explanations like this show how much research has been gone into this project. I understand that not anyone can like it, that's usual for any kind of project - but either you like it or not, you have to recognize the effort and thought that has been done.

By the way, without having read the whole thread, what was the 10th map guideline about?

Old Post 12-14-11 11:24 #
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Chex Warrior
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Just finished it guys and I had a blast! The Spider Demon level particularly was really neat, it managed to keep me on my toes the entire time.

Old Post 12-14-11 11:44 #
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Tormentor667 said:
By the way, without having read the whole thread, what was the 10th map guideline about?

As I saw it, our aim as mappers for this project was to each make a 10th map to fit into an episode of our choice - so for my map I was making an E3 map that wasn't like any of the currently existing E3M1-E3M9, but would happily fit in with them in terms of style, aesthetics, size, flow, difficulty, theme, functionality and gameplay. The only concession I made to the mapslot is that it needed a secret exit (which could have happened had id have made double-length episodes, for example).

Old Post 12-14-11 11:50 #
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