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Phml
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Trifling 10/21 (plays on Map01 now, for convenience)

Several changes were made, significantly retooled the exit and added difficulty settings. I playtested it a fair bit and like it as is, but I am always open to feedback and suggestions.

Regarding mancs in Exodus - I won't rehash arguments I already made nor restart what would be essentially a previous argument, but I just wanted to say I liked the two mancs. No biggie either way.

Edit: new version. Forgot a particulary obvious texture misalignement, no other change.

Edit 2: Trifling 10/21 C

Genius that I was, one year ago I had left one of the four start switches linked to absolutely nothing. In the dozens of playthrough I must have given this map since I apparently never noticed it... Probably falling into the same patterns all the time.

Last edited by Phml on 10-21-12 at 20:30

Old Post 10-21-12 19:53 #
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j4rio
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Regarding exodus:

- the last switch that is inside which lowers bars blocking a way to teleporter shouldn't be the trigger of monsters teleporting outside, or this can happen. There's a simple gimmicky way that could solve this - make a voodoo sequence that consists of 2 floors next to each other, the one closer to voodoo player will be lowered by switch in last room, the second one further from voodoo doll will be triggered as a lift by linedefs that surround teleport destination of teleporter in last room. (There's exact same thing in map 2 of jthfix which you should have :p)

- specters and hitscanners in last room should be deaf, or if you make noise on lower floor, they'll gather around upper end of lift and do some dirty things

- in case you don't find blue armor secret, there could be a green one available in that room as well

- BFG doesn't need to teleport in - the platform it'd be on could just be taller and BFG therefore unreachable. Also since this'll be map one, the other identical platform could have an unreachable megasphere on it, so you could withstand a rocket hit. Both BFG and megasphere platforms will lower once you teleport back to starting room through last room.

- There should be bars preventing free entering of indoors section once you teleport back outside. They could block the second door leading to room with red and yellow keycards - the first small room with SSG could be accessible even after you teleport back, as bars could be annoying outside and block movement.

Hopefully I noted everything I had on mind...

Old Post 10-21-12 20:02 #
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cannonball
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Right here goes
Exodus take 2
http://www.mediafire.com/?hfryej5x4fjcy3a
Monster blocking lines on entrance to base
Door between key room and ssg room seals permanently after you ride the lift to the room with hitscanners/spectres.
The teleporting bfg was done for lols really :P added a megasphere there and added another w1 line with the destination to the other slipgate floor. (I like to be different)
I wasn't sure about the means to your plan about the ending, so I added another linedef near the teleport gate thnigy which lowers the platform for the hks and cybers hence will only start teleporting pretty much when you teleport outside.
Green armour added in room with hitscanners and spectres.

Old Post 10-21-12 21:10 #
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j4rio
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cannonball said:

I wasn't sure about the means to your plan about the ending, so I added another linedef near the teleport gate thnigy which lowers the platform for the hks and cybers hence will only start teleporting pretty much when you teleport outside.



Here's how I envisioned it. I edited only voodoo sequence to what I had in mind. I figured just doing it myself would have been more time-economizing as I'm not a fan of talking about such trivial unimportancies and end up being misunderstood anyway.

I also put BFG and megasphere onto platforms, because they for some reason didn't always teleport. It also leaves a clue that there'd be something serious going on laters this way, I think. The only thing that's a placeholder are those bars, I slapped textures on them just so they don't appear as HOMs. This way it's also a bit more coop-friendly.

Old Post 10-22-12 14:14 #
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cannonball
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Fair enough, that works well on the whole. If everyone is fine with this then shall I call this map finished? I just cleared the junk sectors (the ones not needed any more (eg. switch in secret room plus some crap around the teleporter outside. If everyone is fine I will release the final version (finally).
@J4rio just 2 things;
1) Is the current version of Core Annihilation ok to be a finished product?
2) Also given your much better knowledge of using boom mechanics, why don't you make a short map? You seem to have a good idea for gameplay, if you are worried about looks then I'm sure someone else would stand in to detail the crap out of any map you make :)

Old Post 10-22-12 19:42 #
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j4rio
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1. - I could beat it comfortably after a few tries - http://filesmelt.com/dl/core-demo.lmp
I'd add impassable lines to some computer panel details and ....... wait for it ......... remove invul. (:

2. - Heh, maybe someday. Definitely not for sf though.

Old Post 10-22-12 20:55 #
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Ribbiks
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Phml said:
Edit 2: Trifling 10/21 C


I really liked it. the slaughter 'style' is there, but with the amount of ammo/powerups it's extremely forgiving, would be a great map for early in the wad. also, I like the CEMENT textures :D

Old Post 10-22-12 21:27 #
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j4rio
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FDA for Warborn which Rayzik decided to remove cuz Phml was grumpy when he tried to beat it but couldn't. (:

I'll be honest, I thought this was great. I really liked the mix of mild gimmickyness with difficult encounters on extended doom map layout. Definitely a keeper. The last room is the only part that felt lacking due to switchhunt and a rather less interesting finale.

Old Post 10-22-12 21:55 #
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Phml
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cuz Phml was grumpy when he tried to beat it but couldn't. (:


Inverted smiley face or not, this is starting to get old.

Old Post 10-22-12 23:10 #
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dobu gabu maru
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Ribbiks said:
I like the CEMENT textures :D


Haha, man, I guess that criticism has certainly been dealt with.

Also played the new Trifling. I handled the first few fights much better since I knew how to approach them. Couple things about the new areas.

Since the pinkie floor now has nooks and crannies in it, a lot of the pinkies loose their edge down there. I know it's necessary to provide cover from the impending archviles, it's just a shame since you can do the little "can't touch me" dance in the corner of one of the crannies, whereas before I was pressed to make sure they didn't surround me.

In the manc courtyard, I really liked the idea of triggering specters if you chose to run around the outside... making the player weigh their options in the heat of the battle is what makes these maps great. However, the best (& safest) tactic I found was to stay in the starting area (with the tele that lowers doors) and just strafe left and right, avoiding all incoming fire. It negates a lot of the fear as long as you keep the mancs from coming in too far, and the fight becomes pretty easy. It's an earlier map so maybe cheap wins like these are allowable, but I dunno, I just felt bad for not having to face the specters... and it's not a time consuming either, so it feels like there is no drawback.

Blehhh never liked mass PEs. But they counter the cyber pretty well. Maybe you could take some cell packs outside and stick them in the cyber den, just in case players accidentally like wasting them on the mancs outside (dunno if they would, but it might be nice especially if they can't get through the PE horde easily to get the other cell packs... which should really be saved for the last wave anyway).

Last wave is a neat mix. I thought you were teleporting mancs in to help backup the revs, it wasn't until I was under "fire" that I realized the error of my thinking. The AVs come in at a good time, but it was definitely the trickiest fight of the whole thing for me. I had all the manc corpses bunched up in the doorway which helped slow their chase, but if you're huddling down in one archway and they scoot over there, it's really hard to run all the way across the courtyard to avoid one of their attacks (assuming there's still makes covering central archway). You have the exit-gate the player could take cover by, but with any revs wandering around you're better off just trying to dash across the field than staying put. Might just be how I played it (and I saved stupidly mid-battle), but there was a bit of dispairity in difficulty between that fight and the rest. Nothing terrible, but noticeable.

Just my thoughts. It's a nice little package though.

Old Post 10-23-12 00:30 #
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Phml
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I know it's necessary to provide cover from the impending archviles, it's just a shame since you can do the little "can't touch me" dance in the corner of one of the crannies, whereas before I was pressed to make sure they didn't surround me.


You can even stay on the bridge in total safety due to "block monsters" linedefs on the edges now. Stuff would get stuck in there if you skipped things, preventing the bridge from going back up. At this point, the demons are just there to prevent an immediate rush up to the AVs, and eventually create some chaos.

...It might seem overly silly playing the map methodically. I have to admit I just rush in and trigger everything. Might just change them for barons - say, on each side, 2 of them behind a block monster line in front of the bloodfalls, and 2 of them roaming free.


Maybe you could take some cell packs outside and stick them in the cyber den, just in case players accidentally like wasting them on the mancs outside (dunno if they would, but it might be nice especially if they can't get through the PE horde easily to get the other cell packs... which should really be saved for the last wave anyway).


I like having just the megasphere in the cyber den; leaving all the cell ammo out and available right away gives you options. The intent is for the rocket launcher to come out eventually, although efficient BFG usage can avoid that.


there was a bit of dispairity in difficulty between that fight and the rest. Nothing terrible, but noticeable.



You're right, it's a bit brutal, especially considering they spawn behind line of sight.

I want to have them spawning there though, so pulling back to the start right after flipping the switch isn't too easy; and I like having them come out of the teleporters that might have been perceived as fake ones due to their previous usage lowering walls.

I figure if you flip the switch and wait for them to come to you you've got range to see them coming, and AVs potentially resurrecting the mancs if they were lured towards the entrance before balances that particular strategy making the manc fight easier.

Last edited by Phml on 10-23-12 at 01:16

Old Post 10-23-12 01:09 #
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dobu gabu maru
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Yeah, barons might fit those underhalls better, especially since the mass of pinkies on the other side of the bridge does look pretty dumb just huddled around, moving back and forth.


I figure if you flip the switch and wait for them to come to you you've got range to see them coming


I guess my issue was that the revs took precedence as soon as they were warping in, never allowing me to even know AVs were coming in until it was too late.

Also, do you guys know when you're going to start arranging maps in order? I know j4rio is still perusing the various submissions, I'm just curious. I wanted to get a map in but it'll be a while before it's done, and dunno if I should shoot for 2013 or not.

Old Post 10-23-12 05:34 #
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j4rio
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Phml said:


Inverted smiley face or not, this is starting to get old.



I can't get the other side without doing some language changing gizmos on my notebook with reduced buttons, so you'll have to start getting used to (: . (:

It certainly wasn't as bad as a lot of submissions, so if it disappeared with nobody having the map including author, it'd be a waste, just like shore of hell's first version.


dobugabumaru said:


Also, do you guys know when you're going to start arranging maps in order? I know j4rio is still perusing the various submissions, I'm just curious. I wanted to get a map in but it'll be a while before it's done, and dunno if I should shoot for 2013 or not.



I'm usually thinking this through. I'll post once I go through whole list, as I haven't played some maps yet. If you'd like to do a map, feel free to go ahead, it'll fit into already existing schemes of how to sort the final wad. I'd hint to focus on shorter or medium sized ones as there's already enough of humonguous submissions already. However, there's still a question of what to place at slot of map 30. If there'd be no map made as a finale, the only solution I could think of was to edit some current submission to be able to work there.

Old Post 10-23-12 07:59 #
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Phml
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I can't get the other side without doing some language changing gizmos on my notebook with reduced buttons, so you'll have to start getting used to (: . (:



I'm talking about your insistence to pretend I'm grumpy as soon as I happen to have a different point of view than your own. This is childish. If you disagree with something, attack the argument, not the individual.

And if your previous post was intended to be facetious, try to think of how many times you've been on the receiving end of a "umad?" joke and genuinely enjoyed it (and not just pretended to do so to look like a cool, laid-back guy). My guess, the answer is zero, or pretty close to it. This is antagonizing, period.

One of the great things about this sort of topic is we get a bunch of like-minded people together and can trade perspectives and ideas of what makes good slaughtermaps, and improve our own understanding of game design. Once you make stuff up about other people and dismiss their feedback as invalid because of these fantasies, you close off the conversation.

I won't shit the thread further about this - the above was essentially a long-winded way of saying "you're annoying me with this, please consider not doing that".

Old Post 10-23-12 12:14 #
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Phml
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Trifling 10/23

Swapped demons for barons and changed chaingunners for demons. Chose not to tweak the final fight, I feel it's fair for UV (HMP has no AVs).

Edit: Trifling 10/23 B

Had to rebuilt the nodes as two revenants outside kept detecting the doomguy while he was still in the start room. Also used the opportunity to set some inaccessible wall detail to be impassable so cacodemons don't get stuck in it.

Last edited by Phml on 10-23-12 at 14:47

Old Post 10-23-12 12:55 #
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j4rio
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You're exaggerating. I didn't in any way try to attack you nor any of your arguements regarding that map, and if I did, I would have done in like I did countless times before, right in this thread. Your presence in that post could be summed up as friendly poke. That's it. I can't fathom how you could conclude that. Delusional. The thing that did annoy me was that Rayzik deleted his maps presumably because of your and only your feedback, as I didn't find any other feedback regarding that map, but all of this is irrelevant and not my point at all, not even a slightest bit, and basically the only reason why you found yourself in that post.

Don't delete your maps. Anybody. Pretty please.

E: rephrased a little bit

also


j4rio, why don't you have v1 of Rayzik's Shore of Hell wad anymore? ;P


I did, but Rayzik came up with v2, so I though he just fixed some blocklines I adviced, so I replaced it and left it at that. I kinda regret not checking it straight away back then. :<

Last edited by j4rio on 10-23-12 at 18:26

Old Post 10-23-12 16:08 #
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TimeOfDeath
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Good advice, don't delete maps ffs.

j4rio, why don't you have v1 of Rayzik's Shore of Hell wad anymore? ;P

Old Post 10-23-12 18:02 #
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j4rio
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5 more maps from OP

Lost - A mix of notably basic layout with even more simplistic gameplay and with additional requirement of menacing switchhunt. I think this may as well be the winner in worst submission category in the list. I recall ToD wanted to do edits to it, but if it'll actually become a reality and this map becomes at least halfdecently enjoyable, I'll eat my hat.

Home of the Red, White and Blue - This is basically a bit better looking newgothic map 3 with cybers replaced by lower tier monsters. In other words, a gameplay relying on how much can you accomplish while being almost constantly invulnerable, and trying to locate another invulnerabilties on ground which is almost completely filled with view blocking bodies. A very mediocre map, but author gets bonus points for sharing his demo where he beats it whole, an action barely expectable from authors of rather worse maps.

The Multiverse - Pretty much a mix of previous two maps. Beginning section with ssg is just helplessly tedious after taking out around 15 cacos and 20 lost souls with it, then the silly column trigger part and then a battle where you finally get BFG. You also get invul showed right in front of arena where a fight is to take place, and additionally you also get invis sphere to manage better those fights with projectile-only monsters. There were also notably many stuck monsters. It doesn't get any better afterwards. Not sure if it's worth finding out what I left out.

Stairway to Helven - This is probably the best out of these 4, but still a very mediocre one. Consists of one stairs chunk and one arena + passages chunk. The stairs chunk doesn't offer any notable fight, just monsters popping up from or around a long stairs. If you just rush upwards, you should comfortably survive it with almost certain success, effectively skipping over half of map. The upper part is an arena with cybers, some monsters teleporting and a passages section to serve as hiding. At first you have to solve a switch trigger sequence which is just enough to provoke facepalming. Then a heap of cybers open which you have to take out inside a tiny box, causing little to no harm and being just mindnumbingly tedious. After that you activate last battle and monsters start teleporting it, also a long hallway with passages becomes accessible which you're supposed to use to win this battle - it however plays rather horribly, with monsters clogging only certain parts rather than offer some glorious hide&seek challenge.

There's also a wrong link to this map in OP. Link actually leads to -

Into The Water - You get only a RL, you get to spam out a hundred demons, 6 cybers, some archviles, another cyber, few hundreds of imps and more hundreds of revs and at last around 12 stationary cybers. All of that with RL...

Secrets in these maps are also noteworthy, usually opening a whole new path to play... in a completely linear level. It's like having a long dead end section in your map that gets you exactly nowhere, filling it with monsters to the core, tagging it as secret and making it completely unobvious to spot.

I really can't help it, but with already having a clue about average quality of a map, I'd sent these to rejects. I wish author of all these maps just invested that time into making one quality map instead of many that are seemingly helpless.

Last edited by j4rio on 10-23-12 at 23:57

Old Post 10-23-12 23:41 #
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cannonball
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Right
Exodus final
Just cleaned up J4rio's fixed version so this should work fine now (just removed a few now needless sectors)
Core Annihilation final?
Same again just some blocklines and well gave in to J4rio's request on said invulnerability. hope everyone else is ok with this. I also added a teleporter to one of the secrets as technically you can get stuck in there if you don't hit the switch beforehand.
http://www.mediafire.com/?mgqjwzjqcxbbtf3

Old Post 10-24-12 20:06 #
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j4rio
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Exodus suggestions

- Cyber reveals once you press both switches next to plasma guns rather than after just one of them, and also he should not be able to see you right away. I can't help but feel he is rather unnecessary. I don't know. I'll think this through. Maybe somebody else can leave a suggestion.
- Closet with revs opening after pressing one plasma switch could be tweaked a bit with some boomisms. Having it open means that you spot all those revs right away and just plasmatize them out. It kinda lacks a surprise element and would make speedrun attempts a misery, as you'd obviously want to bypass them to make them infight, but that's unlikely to be reliable, if possible at all. You could make an identical gimmicky trick as is in that voodoo sequence I left in your map - those first two squares. It'd make that rev closet open up once you are right next to it instead of just simplistically having it open. If you decide to alter this, then the identical closet on the opposite side should have something to it as well... a side effect of symmetry.

Old Post 10-24-12 22:07 #
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cannonball
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j4rio said:
Exodus suggestions

- Cyber reveals once you press both switches next to plasma guns rather than after just one of them, and also he should not be able to see you right away. I can't help but feel he is rather unnecessary. I don't know. I'll think this through. Maybe somebody else can leave a suggestion.
- Closet with revs opening after pressing one plasma switch could be tweaked a bit with some boomisms. Having it open means that you spot all those revs right away and just plasmatize them out. It kinda lacks a surprise element and would make speedrun attempts a misery, as you'd obviously want to bypass them to make them infight, but that's unlikely to be reliable, if possible at all. You could make an identical gimmicky trick as is in that voodoo sequence I left in your map - those first two squares. It'd make that rev closet open up once you are right next to it instead of just simplistically having it open. If you decide to alter this, then the identical closet on the opposite side should have something to it as well... a side effect of symmetry.



Well here is my solution, well the rev section is done how you say, if you are running and full speed it should come down around the time you pass the monster closet. The other side, well I left it as it is, but decided to make the cyber teleport in as a surprise and not just be there by the key to start off with. I think I added a trooper there as some lame attempt at a joke :P
http://www.mediafire.com/?l91ijstwf5oqdfu

Old Post 10-24-12 23:29 #
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j4rio
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^

Dummy lift triggering linedefs are too far to be of any notable effect. Put them closer. A triggery linedef on second to last or last step in front of closets would do, so it basically reveals their content in front of you. Also, put at least 2 identical linedefs like that close to each other, as it's quite likely to skip linedefs while running down the stairs.

Old Post 10-24-12 23:50 #
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Rayzik
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j4rio said:
The thing that did annoy me was that Rayzik deleted his maps presumably because of your and only your feedback, as I didn't find any other feedback regarding that map, but all of this is irrelevant and not my point at all, not even a slightest bit, and basically the only reason why you found yourself in that post.

Don't delete your maps. Anybody.



Honestly I deleted my maps because I don't have time to fix them and don't want them to stink up the release. The idea behind my maps were astounding inside my head, and miserable in execution. Unleash the Fire turned out alright, and I still don't like it because it's mostly linear.

But right now I'm working on another map. And Hopefully this one won't disappoint (lol yea right). If I have enough time before new years, I might go back to shore of hell and try to open it up. A lot. That seems to be the main issue with it.

As for Warborn, that was the first "slaughter" map I ever presented, and was really meant to be a knockoff of Plutonia's MAP32, but based on E4M1. But I believe that I blew that one, and if I go back to it, will probably just make it really small, like an opening map.

I seem to have an obsession or OCD with making big extravagant maps, and that's probably just the problem.

Old Post 10-25-12 00:48 #
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j4rio
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I thought the only points of interest to fix in warborn were the yellow skullkey room (awakward teleporting ; encounter) and last room (unnecessary switchhunt, maybe some spice up to last encounter as well). Besides that I would probably just make sure there are block lines at vital places and call it a day. I'm sorry to say that I somehow managed to genuinely enjoy it.

Old Post 10-25-12 01:09 #
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cannonball
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Another fix for Exodus
http://www.mediafire.com/?0yacep23fwl06ya
Did the changes you suggested J4rio, plus I added block lines on the mancubi and chaingunner platforms, most notable for the chaingunners as you can knock them off ruining speedruns.
I hope we can finally put this map to bed, as frankly you are probably getting bored of this map now :P

Old Post 10-25-12 20:04 #
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j4rio
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got around to trying trifling
no suggestions

demo - http://filesmelt.com/dl/trif-demo.lmp

Old Post 10-27-12 01:37 #
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j4rio
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Unleash the fire - Too many revenants teleport onto rocky ledges during the encounter before you pick red key - with cybs and mancs. Either expand area they can move on by placing block lines a bit further from each other or remove some revs from stock.

Total Recall - cb posted wrong mediafire link.

These Walls - With some edits to it's possible to make some mediocre map out of it, but that's probably all to it. Currently in barely playable state and rather lacking.

Old Post 10-27-12 14:12 #
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cannonball
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Woops, here it is, nothing has changed apart from the co-op stuff tbh
http://www.mediafire.com/?a7satzlloeu9s4l

Old Post 10-27-12 14:43 #
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cannonball
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True Grit V.7 (I think haha)
http://www.mediafire.com/?xxvxosvsyy0gse4
The looks in places is a little bare (yellow key) but just wanted to see if the gameplay is on the right track to be honest.

Old Post 10-28-12 23:05 #
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j4rio
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It's definitely a major improvement.

- Monsters don't need to teleport to starting room once you progress. Annoying clogging up can happen. A single vile would've been more than sufficient.

- Room before getting to last outside section feels somewhat unnecessary.

- Teleporters in last room are horrible. It'd annoy the living hell out of speedrunner.

- I couldn't find any way back inside last room when I took the teleporter that gets me outside. If there is any way to get back in, it should be much more obvious.

Also, in Total Recall, I think there should be at least something minor done to hinder player once exits are available. It's way too trivial to exit. At least a crusher or something... dunno.

Old Post 10-29-12 22:04 #
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