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j4rio
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Damn, I can't believe you managed to fix it like that. It seems to play much better now IMO. Some notes:

- Mancs have crappy dummy rooms, around 150 managed to remain stuck in their teleporter rooms.
- Exit is barely visible with those corpses blocking view all over the place so it needs to be much bigger and there's also another thing that you might trigger it before actually wanting to. I'd make the teleporter that atm exits level teleport you to some additional room through which you can either exit or teleport back to map. Also, you can remove death exit now.
- I kinda don't like invuls particularly here because you can just cut your way to exit. It might not be necessarily a bad thing as it opens up ways to speed through map, but to me it feels like cheap way out. As I said before, I'd swap all of them to megaspheres and probably keep invuls for lower difficulties.

Old Post 11-30-12 09:18 #
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ArmouredBlood
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j4rio said:
Damn, I can't believe you managed to fix it like that. It seems to play much better now IMO. Some notes:

- Mancs have crappy dummy rooms, around 150 managed to remain stuck in their teleporter rooms.
- Exit is barely visible with those corpses blocking view all over the place so it needs to be much bigger and there's also another thing that you might trigger it before actually wanting to. I'd make the teleporter that atm exits level teleport you to some additional room through which you can either exit or teleport back to map. Also, you can remove death exit now.
- I kinda don't like invuls particularly here because you can just cut your way to exit. It might not be necessarily a bad thing as it opens up ways to speed through map, but to me it feels like cheap way out. As I said before, I'd swap all of them to megaspheres and probably keep invuls for lower difficulties.



All that stuff: Done. Took fucking 2 hours to rebuild/tag/join the manc boxes though. Ugh. Can I just do maps in zdoom now and use scripting to spawn mobs 1000 at a time? lol.

Old Post 11-30-12 12:29 #
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Phml
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Can I just do maps in zdoom now and use scripting to spawn mobs 1000 at a time? lol.


I assumed scripting was going to be such an improvement for spawning mobs, but for me it seems even less convenient than teleport closets.

If I want to spawn an entire group at once, it seems I have to specify coordinates or mapspots for every single actor. There's perhaps smarter ways to do this, i.e. by only specifying fixed coordinates for one monster and spawning the rest relative to the position of this first one... That means either having to get it right theorically without a visual support, or spending the time to plop down monsters as they would end up and then removing them to adjust the script, which seems kind of like taking one step forward then two steps backwards.

As for regular, constant pouring teleports, it's admittedly easy enough to just spawn one mob, add one to a specific monster count and put the script in a loop until it reaches whatever magic number you choose, but that doesn't seem foolproof. If a monster is sitting at the spawn location, for example to shoot a fireball at the player, the script will not spawn the next monster due to the location being occupied but will keep going through the loop (and forced spawn is just as bad as monsters end up stuck in each other).

There could be something I'm missing. There's probably something I'm missing.

Old Post 11-30-12 13:09 #
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j4rio
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ArmouredBlood said:


All that stuff: Done. Took fucking 2 hours to rebuild/tag/join the manc boxes though. Ugh. Can I just do maps in zdoom now and use scripting to spawn mobs 1000 at a time? lol.



Last thing I think may end up being crucial: Add lifts that'll get you to nearest floor at these spots. With how monsters teleporting is implemented, you can easily end up in those corners without a way to make it through monsters especially during start when you have no BFG yet.

Also, I'd add megasphere to starting position of hard contact.

Old Post 11-30-12 14:10 #
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j4rio
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Final verion of Bane's Atrium. Most likely.

Old Post 12-01-12 13:44 #
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cannonball
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True Grit maybe final
http://www.mediafire.com/?gc4dk3p689hmb4s
Changes - Too many to list - Many thanks to j4rio for the map fixing conversation we had.
Fortress Of Damnation maybe final
http://www.mediafire.com/?8m7wmts4v8c6xf7
One more Archvile added at the end, they appear using the much hated action 19 trigger :P

Old Post 12-01-12 15:40 #
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cannonball
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Sorry for the double post
Final version of true grit
http://www.mediafire.com/?lxsu6adv261m18u
Monsters in start area moved further away from the stairs.
Cybers released at yellow key replaced with spiders to reduce cataclysmic infighting.
Switch in exit room now lowers to stop players sticking to it during the final fight.

Old Post 12-01-12 18:23 #
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dannebubinga
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j4rio and I fixed damned legion. Is it playable?

Damned Legion fixed

Requires sf2011-tex.wad

Old Post 12-01-12 23:21 #
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cannonball
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Whilst I can't give too much advice on gameplay, I will put in one thing,
The masterminds in the 2nd to last fight are pretty much a non threat as they pretty much tangle with a couple of melee monsters and well suffer a long humiliating death, I would replace them with something else.
The map looks nice and seems to have some interesting encounters.

Old Post 12-01-12 23:50 #
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j4rio
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Only danne should be listed as co-author of fixed damned legion though, I just brought up issues and he fixed them. Archi gave permission for edits btw.

@cb Masterminds getting helplessly scratched to death on every possible ocassion is one of reasons why you can't pronounce slaughter without laughter. I'd keep it as it is, they're just innocently pointless, and they can still cause trouble if they decide to become stuck straight in your way. I think they are what makes the end of the map sort of distinctive.

We should already start thinking of sorting management of maps to get final order of main wad down at least within a month (that is if there's anybody besides me giving a sheet about it though *cough*). The only certain ones would be kyka's map 7 due to manc/arach tags, 32 for ToD's hospital and probably cb's exodus for map 1. Slaughtenstein should be either 15 (might be a bit brutal for the relatively early spot) or 31 (there are much more fitting maps for map 31 slot imo) if Phml wants to keep additional exit. Map 30 is currently reserved for Ribbiks's map in progress. As I've proposed already, spamBFG maps could be placed to 33-35 as they would be difficult to implement along with the rest of maps and it'd be a convenient way of having those maps implemented like that. 36 onwards should not be a spot for any map in a wad, as it requires annoying procedure with -nomusic parameter for running them as well as watching demos of them, although I've probably mentioned it already.

Old Post 12-03-12 17:05 #
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cannonball
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haha ok, well we all need a bit of humour in our lives :P
Err..... um........
Well I would place True Grit on the Map11 slot as it kind of has a death exit which I never deleted (map had a spam bfg in it's earlier incantation)
Most likely the early maps will consist of my maps, Cashews and Boomtown and any other reasonably short maps which I can't remember.

Old Post 12-03-12 17:22 #
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Rayzik
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So that probably means that my maps will all be later maps because of the length involved. I admit that aren't really difficult either, but it's up to you guys really.

Old Post 12-03-12 17:30 #
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Ribbiks
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I think Trifling, Stitch, Cashews, Fortress of Damnation would make good early maps (of the ones I've played). MAP01 is a pretty important slot, were there any maps specifically designed for it?

also any opinions on an IoS ending for map30? I'm not sure how uv-maxes work with those, surely you can't be expected to kill the spawns... I think it may be better off without it.

Old Post 12-03-12 17:32 #
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cannonball
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I think many on here would dislike an icon of sin ending, especially on a massive map where 40-50 minute of work could be hilariously undone by being telefragged by a spawning monster, plus the uv max issues. A compromise could be a simple ending where you simply have to kill a romero head to end the level.

Old Post 12-03-12 17:47 #
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j4rio
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cannonball said:

Well I would place True Grit on the Map11 slot as it kind of has a death exit which I never deleted (map had a spam bfg in it's earlier incantation)



I think you could remove it as there's no point in keeping it anymore.



cannonball said:

Most likely the early maps will consist of my maps, Cashews and Boomtown and any other reasonably short maps which I can't remember.



Well the candidates for first 4 maps would be

1 Exodus
2 Cashews
3 Island Of Mystery
4 Trifling

In that order, IMO. While I can't say that I find map I chose for slot 1 to be perfect, it's the closest to worthy starter maps out of submissions. Only some sort of slight overhaul could make me 100% accept it as starter. The tiny hallways just don't offer enviroment for slaughter. Widening halls / enhacing encounters would really benefit it, I think. It's not bad, just probably a little average for map slot that should contain something of really high quality.

There's also pure hate which is relatively short, although I have few doubts regarding it. It feels to be done in the same style as warborn, except warborn executes it a little better, I think. If there ends up full main wad, I'd consider it a reject, otherwise it could be either map 4 or 5.

I also considered boomtown as a placeholder for 33-35 section of main wad, along with hard contact and KSP. That way we get more room in main wad and also divide it so no core gameplay differences will be present inside the main section of wad.

Oh, and hopefully some replacement for last silly box with 2 cybs in cashews will happen. DeathTrueEggDude apparently washed his hands off it.


Ribbiks said:
I think Trifling, Stitch, Cashews, Fortress of Damnation would make good early maps (of the ones I've played). MAP01 is a pretty important slot, were there any maps specifically designed for it?

also any opinions on an IoS ending for map30? I'm not sure how uv-maxes work with those, surely you can't be expected to kill the spawns... I think it may be better off without it.



Well, there's shaitan luck map 30 you could have a look at. And, surprisingly, there's still no max of it. With those spawned monsters and confused HUD, there's almost no certain way to be sure that max is valid.

Also, I didn't consider stitch as a part of main wad, so if it makes it in in current form, then it could also fit 1-5 part of wad. I'd much more prefer boxv2 to be in because it, simply said, offers much more fun to be had, also from coop point of view.

Old Post 12-03-12 18:23 #
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TimeOfDeath
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I don't care about the map order, but I'm glad you guys are talking about it. Does j4rio want to keep track of everyone's comments about the maplist and make the final decision?

Old Post 12-03-12 18:57 #
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gggmork
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I never even maxed my ghey map, but all well. I assume its beatable. I don't care if it ends up in some 2nd "rejects" wad. I kinda like the idea of being in the rejects wad actually, that's where all the cool people's wads go. Also I think 33+ maps are dumb because you can't idclev to them and some people don't even know they exist (like my claustrophobia 1024 map).

Old Post 12-03-12 20:15 #
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j4rio
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It works with zdoom, and since everybody plays zdoom, those maps will most likely not fade into oblivion. I thought your map could be put to map 31 slot btw, it's quite hard-type-ish to me rather than downright slolther.

I don't want to have a final word on listing, I'd prefer if peeps did their own ways of sorting maps as well, so it at least lightly resembles democracy, but if there's insistence... I'm probably the only clown here who bothered to play and write about all maps... numerously.



I kinda like the idea of being in the rejects wad actually, that's where all the cool people's wads go.



So you like elmle maps?


like my claustrophobia 1024 map


tatsurd did a max of it quite recently.

Last edited by j4rio on 12-03-12 at 21:40

Old Post 12-03-12 20:25 #
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TimeOfDeath
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Yeah it would help if everyone posted their maplist ideas (if they care about it). Someone's gotta have the final word in the end and you went through every map, thanks btw.

Old Post 12-03-12 20:34 #
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j4rio
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At least download all maps in case links start expiring.

Old Post 12-03-12 22:11 #
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dobu gabu maru
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So to make it a bit easier on you guys, I made a quick excel sheet so we can keep track of map progress, rather than just filling up this page with long lists. This is what it looks like. Download if you want, but I'll keep track of the general consensus and update every now and then.

So, I updated it with my personal preferences so far, throwing in some of j4rio's suggestions, highlighting what I've personally prefer so far and crossing out the maps I don't think we should consider. I still have yet to play a bunch of the other maps (like most of cannonball's and Rayzik's maps), so don't assume that no highlight = no like. I have to play more maps to determine a good level progression, as both Island of Mystery and Trifling feel like they belong a 2-3 slots ahead the MAP03 spot, so I've been holding off on placing those. I think it'd be a funny joke if we stuck The War to End All Wars as MAP33, but that's just me.

Also, if someone could rehost Pure Hate, that'd be great as the original link is broken.

Last edited by dobu gabu maru on 12-04-12 at 07:19

Old Post 12-03-12 22:26 #
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gggmork
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I would probably just say alphabetical order (or random etc) in 2 wads of 22 maps (or however many) each to be fair to all. I liked 'group by author' in the previous slaughterfest actually so could go alphabetical by author name instead of map name. Whatever, I don't really care. Do what thou wilt as the illuminati supposedly say.

"So you like elmle maps?"
I've hardly played any of these yet actually.

"tatsurd did a max of it quite recently."
oh cool, just watched those

Old Post 12-03-12 23:34 #
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ArmouredBlood
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dobugabumaru said:
Excel sheet stuff

You missed decimal_error by me.

Also surprised j4rio mentioned shai'tan map 30. It was ... ok I guess. My work has quite a bit of variance.

Old Post 12-04-12 06:06 #
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dobu gabu maru
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ArmouredBlood said:

You missed decimal_error by me.



Shoot. I knew there was probably going to be something missing. Updated the excel sheet.

Also, I feel like gggmork is the Joker to my Batman, as I feel like two symmetrical, balanced yet unorganized released will put off more people than the last release. The (friendly) goal is to put the best "slaughterfest" foot forward, trying to rope in those that are on the fence about the genre and show them how fun & frantic it can be. Organizing it specifically by author creates the same drought as last time, where early players may not take the latter levels seriously after giving up on one of the early maps just because they're tired of the same style. I think there's a better showing overall this year, but a lot of its impression relies upon a good presentation IMO. Plenty of people will enjoy this release as long as they give it a chance, which I'm unsure if they will if they stumble upon elmle's "Lost" and decide "alright, I guess I'm done playing."

Old Post 12-04-12 07:30 #
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j4rio
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gggmork said:
I would probably just say alphabetical order (or random etc) in 2 wads of 22 maps (or however many) each to be fair to all.


That'd probably be the best way to solve it if the priority were the feelings of contributors rather than overall quality. Not mentioning that it would just speak of laziness and halfassery. Sometimes something just ends up sucking compared to something that doesn't end up sucking, such is the way of things everywhere - consider this sf as one of such cases, as there are currently too many maps to fit into a single wad. Yes, it may seem that it's all down to individuals whether something sucks or not, but if there are always the same maps brought up as low end by majority of the little of us there already is, it may actually not be point of view on the matter that's so full of shit.


ArmouredBlood said:

You missed decimal_error by me.

Also surprised j4rio mentioned shai'tan map 30. It was ... ok I guess. My work has quite a bit of variance.



It's really cool map, but uv-max goals are clashing when looking at it from that perspective. For example, an AV is spawned from spawner, it revives a monster - now how to treat that revived monster? Kill/ignore? What if you ignore it and somebody notices that real AV actually revived something rather than spawned one - should max become invalid? Also, with all the spawned/revived/whatever monsters, HUD is completely useless. You can never be sure whether every goal of uv-max is fulfilled.

Btw, not sure if you noticed, but I left a note regarding decimal error / wrath of set or however you prefer to call it:



j4rio said:


Last thing I think may end up being crucial: Add lifts that'll get you to nearest floor at these spots. With how monsters teleporting is implemented, you can easily end up in those corners without a way to make it through monsters especially during start when you have no BFG yet.



I've changed my mind and I think map may end up barely playable were this not to get implemented.


dobugabumaru said:
both Island of Mystery and Trifling feel like they belong a 2-3 slots ahead the MAP03 spot, so I've been holding off on placing those.

Also, if someone could rehost Pure Hate, that'd be great as the original link is broken.



The problem is with those maps we basically ran out of short stuff. I'm not sure about stitch, if that's a final word on the map from phml, then I'll just leave it in a "no comment" status and leave it at that. There's also danne's tyngsrid but that's already a contender for 6 or higher mapslot. Most of short GRB speedmaps without edits in their empirical form just don't make it for me, there are better submissions to use mapslots for. Yeah, the slaughtery progression will most likely end up escalating really quickly.

As for excel sheet, it's really cool idea, but still, it requires all submissions to be played through nonetheless to be able to compare maps between each other.

Here's pure hate
http://filesmelt.com/dl/purehate.wad

Old Post 12-04-12 10:11 #
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cannonball
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Just a couple of pointers in relation to the excel spreadsheet about a couple of the marked maps which needs addressing.
- Power Plant - if someone took the time to finish it would be awesome, the start is really good, but there is no progression or exit as of yet. Maybe someone else is working on this behind the scenes if we speak.
- Last Cup of Sorrow, I'm not sure at the moment that this is still completely cleaned up, I think this map still needs some tweaking and again it might be one of us who has to do it as krypto has yet again fallen off the face of the Earth which is a real shame because I really like this map and his atmospheric ideas.
Right better look at some of these maps and put some thoughts on level progression. Though it's probably not so much an issue as other wads such as cc4. We start of hard and then get even harder is less of a learning curve to starting off easy and then ending very hard, so it's not such a big issue in my opinion, but it won't stop me listing them anyway :P
Btw I will go by j4rio's list of wads which in his mind make the cut so far.

Old Post 12-04-12 13:05 #
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j4rio
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I thought the same regarding krypto's map at first, but knowing that he is a masochist, I'd hint only a few cosmetic changes rather than advice gameplay overhaul. I could get to last room in one go after quite a bunch of attempts. If I were to nitpick, it looks a little too simple compared to lots of submissions, but I think it plays allrighty. I'd lower all of timed bars by a notable chunk because it would inhibite speedruns or coop where you deal with encounters much faster, then move torches in first room into walls to become a part of detail rather than keep being in the way - they are just annoying as obstacles imo, rather place a solid sector that blocks way because collision with it isn't as awkward as with obstacles, and at last one teleporter with mancubuses doesn't work. It's also possible to run out of descending floor with berzerk, and if you don't hop in before monsters teleport in, you'll get blocked by infinitelytallyness.

Old Post 12-04-12 16:06 #
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ArmouredBlood
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Fine, lifts are in. If you want to just throw in that megasphere into hard contact wherever it's fine.

Old Post 12-04-12 18:55 #
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j4rio
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have a demo

http://filesmelt.com/dl/decimal-demo.lmp

Old Post 12-04-12 20:19 #
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cannonball
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True Grit without death exit, plus a few extra bits of detail in the blander areas
http://www.mediafire.com/?35r62k32de5k76f

Just downloaded all the maps in j4rio's main list, given a few additions for latecoming maps and maps where j4rio has had large input (these will be in the main wad). Got so far 33 maps + perhaps power plant if it is finished and fourtress if it is improved to reasonable standard. Will play all of these tomorrow and list them. I was going to suggest listing them by order of file size but that doesn't looks like a good plan.

Last edited by cannonball on 12-04-12 at 21:40

Old Post 12-04-12 20:30 #
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