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j4rio
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It might seem antagonizing, but the way first sf worked like when played continuously felt pretty much just like that. I, for one, would have rested easier knowing that final product at least works as it was supposed to in the first place. With maps like these, differences caused by keeping inventory when passing maps can have much more drastic impact than any casual mapset. Besides, I'd bet that majority of players would be able to accomodate gameplay in so many numerous ways that fit their desires that are also completely bastardizing wad by monsters/weapons/whatever altering, that caring about enjoyment of potential outside party is currently very low on my priority list.

Old Post 10-05-12 23:54 #
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dannebubinga
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Tingsryd final version: http://www.mediafire.com/?mudw49parj69ebm

q1 tex and cc4 tex

Death exit in ALL maps seems pretty drastic IMO. There's only need for death exit as long as there's a pink BFG.

Old Post 10-06-12 12:24 #
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j4rio
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A_base - Against all expectations because of noticing authorship, I was quite nicely surprised. The map somehow manages to play well and even more bizzarely actually feels like it has traces of flow in it. However, just so I don't sound overly positive, every single teleporter dummy room is horribly flawed and requires a serious tune-up. I'd claim gameplay edits for this if I were to be allowed to.


Death exit in ALL maps seems pretty drastic IMO. There's only need for death exit as long as there's a pink BFG.


Yeah, but with already 6-7 (or so?) maps of similar lenght and difficulty with pink BFG already present, there'd be a chance of seemingly awkward consecutive death exits anyway, it just would be within a small chunk of wad rather than whole. Besides, nobody has done it before! There'd be invented a cacoward just because of the originality overload!1!

Nah, jk, but I'd like to hear opinion of more people on the matter, because I can't help really liking almost every aspect of that idea.

Last edited by j4rio on 10-08-12 at 19:40

Old Post 10-08-12 19:14 #
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dannebubinga
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j4rio said:
Yeah, but with already 6-7 (or so?) maps of similar lenght and difficulty with pink BFG already present, there'd be a chance of seemingly awkward consecutive death exits anyway, it just would be within a small chunk of wad rather than whole. Besides, nobody has done it before! There'd be invented a cacoward just because of the originality overload!1!


Enough with the pink BFG maps then! ;)

cacoward? the only way we're winning an award is by making: "SF the way SF-crew did" and then hyping it all over the place even though it sucks.

heh

Old Post 10-08-12 19:43 #
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j4rio
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Actually there are only 4 I'm sure about and left some reserve for ones I might have missed. I'd probably hint AB to find a way around keeping those BFGs in his maps, as it feels to me like it's not necessary to have them present there at all, but whatevs.

Last edited by j4rio on 10-08-12 at 20:20

Old Post 10-08-12 20:14 #
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DooMer 4ever
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Death exit on every map doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. These are the kind of maps most will hate / not skilled enough to play anyway so trying to please the mass seems fairly pointless to me. I mean, just look at the reviews for sf2011 on /idgames.

And as for the Cacoward thing, I would be happy to to nominate sf2011 (I think it was released too late for the last year's competition?) just because watching demos of it is awesome. And I haven't even trying playing the thing, as I know it's far beyond my skill level. It's too bad that the Cacowards are like Academy Awards: a winner must be a wad that everyone likes, not something that is well done but aimed for certain group. That being said, not every map in sf2011 was all that great though, even for watching demos for. For what I've seen, it looks like sf2012 will be a noticeable improvement over the previous wad in quality.

Old Post 10-08-12 20:59 #
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j4rio
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There were a few mistakes in organisation of final wad that downgrade overall quality of first sf imo. There was a chatter on this matter and is now currently buried within this thread.

Oh, and what exactly did we settle on in regard to altering maps by authors that are not tagging along with thread? Yay or nay? (f.e. damned legion)

Old Post 10-09-12 20:18 #
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Phml
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One single run through Hard Contact v4. Doesn't complete.

I have to admit when you mentioned getting rid of the spider mastermind, I wasn't expecting three arch-viles to take its place... :)

It's almost as bad (to me), as they blur your vision and keep sniping you from far away, with the very large field of view their position on this high central tower gives them.

It's not a terribly big deal, you can either try and die multiple times or take a hike and go for the secret BFG, but... I don't know. Both options rub me the wrong way. It just feels like an unnecessary hurdle that doesn't add anything to the map - because if the intent is to have some kind of risk/reward scenario for grabbing the BFG, I think being 2 seconds into the map it doesn't quite work that way, allowing, enticing kamikaze strategies until you luck out or get it right.

Some teleport dists are turned around at an angle you wouldn't expect. The top right one sent me facing towards the east wall rather than the cybies shooting at me from the north, as I'd expect ending up in the corner.

The final fight still seems super hard to me. I remembered last time I got overwhelmed by hiding in a corner, so this run I went for the center room that just opened... Only to find approximately two hundred cybies and some archies. Oww.

I guess I'm getting stomped so hard I can't judge the fight properly, but ideally I feel I should have the time to at least assess the situation before dying a horrible death. Eh, I don't know. If other people say it's fine, it's probably fine.


Oh, and what exactly did we settle on in regard to altering maps by authors that are not tagging along with thread? Yay or nay? (f.e. damned legion)


Dunno. Send the interested parties a PM, maybe. Personally, I'd rather make sure I got permission if the author hasn't specifically mentioned he's OK with people editing his stuff.

Old Post 10-09-12 21:33 #
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Phml
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FDA for Burn Marine Burn.

Gotta say, I'm not seeing the slaughter, save for perhaps the final fight. You fight few enemies at a time, and when the opposition starts to ramp up right after picking the BFG, there's nowhere near enough ammo, health or space to do anything but slowly camp and take potshots at monsters.

The two teleporting cybies in that small temple-like / open air structure felt particulary unfair, there's so little room.

Ditto with the archies who just soak ammo you don't have and seem to be there for the sake of padding the map, making you go through the same place a second time. At the very least, extra ammo caches should open up as they are revealed, IMHO.

There's a touchy situation near the start where revenants can teleport to the next room before you and punch you to death as you teleport yourself. I'd set this teleporter to have monster block lines.

Honestly though, I feel this is a so-so map. I didn't hate it, but I can't see me genuinely wanting to replay it either. You have done and can do much better than that.

Old Post 10-09-12 22:01 #
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dobu gabu maru
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Just doing a drive-by post on the matter of death exits.

I think the undermining issue, also running parallel in the "cheating" thread, is the author freedom vs. player freedom discussion. On one hand you are explicitly telling the player how to play through the megawad without having them refer to the text file, keeping the way every level is meant to be played intact. But on the other hand, you are restricting the way some players like to play Doom, demanding that everyone begin from pistol start... the obvious bonus of doing a consecutive play that you have another means of dealing with monsters at the start, which can help against some problematic enemies for those players in need of a handicap.

What about having a UV-only death exit? By putting down a teleporter thingie only marked in UV in the death exit area, it should keep the design intact for the difficulty the megawad is intended for.

Old Post 10-10-12 00:48 #
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Ribbiks
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Electric Wizard v3: http://www.mediafire.com/?guac7z99pm0vroa

Major Changes:
- A new area has been added to the west side of the map, the plasma gun and red key are now located there.
- The final trap in the teleporting baron room is now 'timed' so that AVs only enter 1 at a time
- The yellow key trap that released AVs is now tamer
- Ammo redistributed around map again, there should be plenty of shells / rockets, conserve your cells!

Minor Changes:
- Walls that trap you in the chaingun room have been changed so you can't hide in the little cubbies
- Poison values increased to 20%
- Switch to YK room placed better
- Soul-sphere secret now triggers only a single AV
- Various detailing


Any additional feedback (hp/ammo balance, etc) or problems with the map are greatly appreciated, I hope to make the this (or the next) version the final submission.

Last edited by Ribbiks on 10-10-12 at 08:32

Old Post 10-10-12 07:45 #
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General Rainbow Bacon
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Okay, as the original creator of this megawad I'm gonna have to butt in:

NO DEATH EXITS! Period.

Also, remember there are to be difficulty settings in this collection. I want this one to be more accessible to people who want to get into slaughtermaps.

There.

Cleared up.

-GRB
Creator

E: I'm not trying to be a stuffy ass here, but I wanted SF2012 to be fun for everyone. SF2013 rules are still up for grabs though! Remember to read the first post people.

Last edited by General Rainbow Bacon on 10-10-12 at 13:28

Old Post 10-10-12 13:17 #
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j4rio
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General Rainbow Bacon said:
Okay, as the original creator of this megawad I'm gonna have to butt in:



If making halfassed OP which you abandoned shortly after without moving a finger to keep it up to date is considered 'creator', then yeah, no objection.



NO DEATH EXITS! Period.



That's an honorable argument.



Also, remember there are to be difficulty settings in this collection.



Most likely a powerup or two is as far as it gets. Tweaking depths of just one difficulty setting (in this case UV) in maps like these is unnecessarily time consuming.



I want this one to be more accessible to people who want to get into slaughtermaps. I'm not trying to be a stuffy ass here, but I wanted SF2012 to be fun for everyone.



If you kept with aftermath of first sf, you'd realize by now that it's as irrealizable as it gets. People complain about "unfun endless bfg spamming" even in HR.

Old Post 10-10-12 14:48 #
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General Rainbow Bacon
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Yeah, I know they complain about HR, but HR does have skill levels. They can lower it if they find it too tedious.

I know I didn't really stay updating the first one, but I guess that's kinda been my thing, start a project idea and hand it over to someone else.

I don't think the gameplay changes are going to be that tedious for people since most people have only made 1 or 2 maps.

Btw, you can get rid of my shitty maps and just keep Bane's Atrium.
That's the only one I actually spent any honest effort on. I guess if someone really wants to fix up the others they can, but I'm done with them.

Old Post 10-10-12 15:35 #
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dannebubinga
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thought ToD "created" sf2012...?

death exits on the pink BFG maps is fucking MANDATORY.


General Rainbow Bacon said:
I don't think the gameplay changes are going to be that tedious for people since most people have only made 1 or 2 maps.



The tedious part is playtesting maps that suck serious balls.

Old Post 10-10-12 16:56 #
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TimeOfDeath
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I don't think I created SF12, I just started the thread. :)

I don't have a problem with mandatory death exits in every map, except that it wasn't a rule from the start, and the year is almost over. imo, I don't want to add death exits to all my maps, I don't like editing my maps after they're finished.

I don't have a problem with people using the pink bfg on one of my non-pink-bfg maps either. I think keeping weapons from previous maps is a fun bonus for playing a wad without pistol starting. But I also don't have a problem with adding a death exit to a map with a pink bfg.

Old Post 10-10-12 20:46 #
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General Rainbow Bacon
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Well, okay. On the pink bfg maps yeah. Death exits for those. I guess I forgot there were some in this pack too.

Old Post 10-10-12 21:26 #
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Rayzik
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dannebubinga said:

The tedious part is playtesting maps that suck serious balls.



Yea, like half of the maps I make.

---

Might I recommend that all the PBFG be lumped together, that way they don't break apart the action between maps without death exits?

Old Post 10-10-12 21:36 #
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Phml
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Crimson 10/11

Had some misaligned textures and blank walls due to copypasted architecture in the red key fight. Also used the opportunity to make some tweaks to lower difficulties. No changes on UV.

Old Post 10-11-12 17:59 #
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Death Egg
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cashews.wad

First version, and unlike last years submission, I actually playtested and bugfixed it a few times before posting a link. Not making that mistake again.

Old Post 10-12-12 00:49 #
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j4rio
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^

Not bad... well, not too bad, that is. It starts off somewhat tolerably up to the point where you obtain plasma, and even though I'd do a few changes up to this point anyway, but after that it gets quite notably unenjoyable, gameplay gets very mediocre and it doesn't leave too much of an impression considering it's quite bland - I don't mind that as long as I get some enjoyment out of map.

- I'd add plasma gun right at the start along with ssg, with maybe 80-100 cell ammo available right away. Using just ssg feels tiring in this case and isn't offering enough firepower to dispose of opposition without constantly taking cover or playing way too carefully and slowly to be enjoyable.

- Make a switch that lowers front crowded passage instead of keeping it as a walk-through trigger. Also, make some stairs form themselves that offer access to upper platform from ground, which would also solve a problem of infinitelytalliness at work when you try to jump down.

- Move RL and 200 or so rockets to this upper floor, because room with RL ammo gets cluttered shortly after and becomes inaccessible.

- I can't think of anything that could help this map from the point where you open up a door that leads to square room with chainers and imps. Pretty much everything past this point is notably flawed and probably barely playble. I'd try and make map continue in the same spirit as the beginning, because both layout and encounters in it are offering just a painful exerience. If you decide to do changes and not just abandon it, make sure to do extensive testing from this point further.

Old Post 10-14-12 18:21 #
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Death Egg
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Cashews, second version. Decided to delete everything inside the castle walls and moved the exit to outside of it, among other gameplay changes suggested. (Also change my credit on the front page from TrueDude to Death Egg)

Old Post 10-16-12 06:52 #
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j4rio
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Move RL to the inside, at the spot with green armor, and add much more rockets there as well. You won't go outside to take out out those masses but remain at or around starting spot, while entrance keeps getting constantly clogged up.

Oh, and I'm definitely not the guy to point out what I'm right now going to point out, and I probably won't in a very distant future, but it looks quite bland. I don't mind if there's blandness in looks but map plays excellently (almost all gggmork maps, f.e.), but if it's mediocre along with gameplay, then overall feel of map loses minimally twice as many points from me. If you can't add anything more gameplay-wise to replace deleted sections, at least add something to it looks wise. The outside clogged section is now basically just big 1-layer-3-texture hall if you don't count sky.

Old Post 10-16-12 19:55 #
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Death Egg
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Cashews, third version.

Did as you said and upped the details a bit, and redid the monster layout a whole bunch too. The entire outside portion almost feels like a new map now. (And a better map at that, IMHO)

Old Post 10-17-12 09:00 #
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j4rio
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I'd alter just the last room now. It felt awkward with those cybers causing no real threat when you took them out from upper floor. Besides that, eh, I think it's tolerable, but if some guys dwelling in this thread advice something, it's always worth considering. Of course, it is leaning towards overall below average quality compared to majority of submissions, but it's unreal to expect perfection from everyone of something that's considered niche. So, gj, I guess.

Old Post 10-17-12 12:31 #
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jongo
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Dunno, i actually liked it, nothing too fancy, but not boring either. Could be fun for speedrunning, as infights are easily controllable and you can get as agressive as you want in every part of map. Here's a quick demo of me finishing it in 3:29 (which is barely watchable anyway because of jerky mouse movements. Sorry, not used to prboom yet, i never use it for playing).
Agree with j4rio about final cybs being too easy, they should probably appear when you jump inside. Dropping a mega in their room for lower difficulties than UV seems like a good idea to me.
First area looks too empty. 3 revs on each side, really? Make it 10-20. There's abundance of rockets in the map anyway and revs would spice up a rocket action quite well.
Something about chainers/cacos/spiders in the bfg area bothers me as well, but i can't decide what the negative factor is :s

Old Post 10-17-12 14:44 #
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j4rio
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I was a bit biased by how it played in previous versions. But yeah, it deserved some more street cred, I suppose. It would work nicely as a starter map in final wad.

Dunno, I think that BFG is kinda unnecessary. I'd keep it in HMP and below and just exchange it for more rocket/cell ammo in UV. Also, you can make those stairs that block arachnotrons much wider, so they'd be able to climb onto them after that just fine. It's kinda stupid how they can get clogged up in there.

Old Post 10-17-12 15:00 #
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Death Egg
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Alright, here's another version with the fixes suggested. I also replaced some of the Arachnotrons with Mancubi, so maybe that'll work better.

Old Post 10-17-12 19:38 #
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j4rio
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More rant:

The revs you added make playthrough without preknowledge a pain.
Place short bars around them so they won't completely obliterate you while you wield just ssg, and make those bars lower to the ground level once you press switch on the above level. Those bars should be short enough to allow revs to freely shoot you if you remain in their view while keeping them at bay so they won't chase you immediately.

Make a switch instead of walk-through trigger that grants you access further at the spot with BFG/ammo.

Mastermind is used quite poorly, as you have basically zero cover. Either add some columns at that spot or have something else teleport in instead of mastermind.

The last room now lacks a punch. You just removed cybs and left it at that... nah, it ripes for a finale of some sort. The exit teleporter could isntead of exiting teleport you to some arena-ish place with damaging floors, columns and whatnot where you can fight those 2 cybers you removed, maybe with some additional light opposition, and put exit inside there.

Old Post 10-17-12 21:37 #
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Death Egg
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j4rio said:

The last room now lacks a punch. You just removed cybs and left it at that... nah, it ripes for a finale of some sort. The exit teleporter could isntead of exiting teleport you to some arena-ish place with damaging floors, columns and whatnot where you can fight those 2 cybers you removed, maybe with some additional light opposition.



Ugh, did they still not teleport in? I thought I fixed that... I think I'll do the arena idea instead.

Old Post 10-17-12 21:39 #
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