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TimeOfDeath
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j4rio said:
BTW, I think there are 51 maps in OP. I think ToD lost the cound. :p

You're right, but I didn't include Startan Arena and the 3 DH maps that turned into Doomherolandia. :)

Old Post 11-25-12 15:32 #
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Rayzik
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Huh. I could've sworn it worked standalone. Well, I don't know how to fix the issue with the textures, so I guess I'll just make the map cc4-tex dependent.

Red key area: I believe it's actually missing the second dummy room altogether... Must've slipped on the undo button to many times.

Blue key area: Will work in a secondary descent method.

Yellow key area: Should be fine. Couldn't replicate the issues with faulty monster teleporting.

EDIT: I see the issue now. Somehow j4rio was able the flip a second switch in the yellow key area before the floors were done lowering. So that skipped the lowering sequence for the dummy room floors and caused one of the waves to not be sent out. I will look into a fix for this.

BFG grab: Yea, I try to not be that cruel... :)

Start: I didn't want the player to become overwhelmed at the start by a horde with merely an SSG. Once they start grabbing things, then the SHTF.

Secret: It's the soulsphere on the pedestal by the blue key. It's right under your nose...

EDIT AGAIN: Also, here is a new version of Warborn. I cut a lot of the overzealous battles out, and tried to make the focus more on position skill. I still have the other version, but I feel that this version is more fulfilling.

Warborn V3

Last edited by Rayzik on 11-25-12 at 21:18

Old Post 11-25-12 20:01 #
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j4rio
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Rayzik said:

EDIT: I see the issue now. Somehow j4rio was able the flip a second switch in the yellow key area before the floors were done lowering. So that skipped the lowering sequence for the dummy room floors and caused one of the waves to not be sent out. I will look into a fix for this.



There were also some deaf monsters in one closet, iirc.


Rayzik said:

EDIT AGAIN: Also, here is a new version of Warborn. I cut a lot of the overzealous battles out, and tried to make the focus more on position skill. I still have the other version, but I feel that this version is more fulfilling.

Warborn V3



While I liked additions compared to previous version, I can't say the same about slicing off notable portion of wacky parts I thought actually added to the overall charm. I'd prefer v2 myself. You could find a compromise between this version and v3 - keep parts from v2 and implement parts you made for v3 to it. Dunno.

Old Post 11-25-12 23:24 #
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Rayzik
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WWMIH v1.1

-Hopefully permanent solution to yellow key fight sequence.
-Added direction-sensitive escape teleporter to blue key tower.
-Added more mobs to red key fight.
-Added a little more ammo.
-Added some stuff to make progression switches more obvious.

_________________

I will see what I can come up with compromise-wise. I will probably add back the old finale, but create an entirely new final area. The old area with the spiders was always something I didn't like, so I will redo the area, and add back the same monster density.

Also, has anyone claimed the MAP32 slot for a specific map? I was thinking of using the keens for a trigger instead of the switches.

Old Post 11-26-12 03:48 #
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TimeOfDeath
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You can use the keens on any map.

Btw j4rio, thx for putting some of my demos on youtube!

Old Post 11-26-12 04:16 #
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Phml
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FDA for WWMIHv1.

Torn between "I liked it, but it confused me" and "it confused me, but I liked it". It looked neat. :)

Nothing in particular stood out, except for that damaging red rock, which disturbed me somehow. Not used to this particular texture being used for that, probably.

Couldn't find a teleport out when I fell down, and at a quick glance in DB2 I assume there is none in either the big pit or in sectors 553 and 514. I'm not big on inescapable pits, even damaging ones.

Save for that, good job!

Old Post 11-26-12 07:14 #
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Rayzik
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I will add some way to return to the platform. Honestly, I didn't even think about falling down...

Anyways, here is Warborn v3.1.

Last edited by Rayzik on 11-27-12 at 07:56

Old Post 11-27-12 07:47 #
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cannonball
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FOD V4
http://www.mediafire.com/?f9dou8mi9rfjmib
BFG placed at exit along with a switch. Archviles dropped from 5 to 2 to at least give the speedy players a sporting chance.
Manage to get the second archvile to teleport later (plasma gun), also the revenants in the yellow key area drop after a certain ammount of time. These timings will be up for discussion as they can be earlier or later depending on the height of the lower floor which lowers to grant the monsters or voodoo doll access to the linedefs.
Difficulty settings and co-op starts added.
Mancubi teleport in on the 3 key switch now, might be enough to persuade people to make a hasty retreat with the cybers and 1 archvile also present from earlier versions.
@J4rio, I might pm you about the ending of True Grit as this might need more discussion about potential options which might take a while and clog up this thread.

Old Post 11-27-12 10:50 #
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Phml
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Twobox (replaces Box, still requires SF2011-tex)

Just about done.

Old Post 11-27-12 23:23 #
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Ribbiks
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here's a demo for twobox: http://www.mediafire.com/?b6n4e2zdc2nc6qf

It's like a cuter scaled down version of the original :)

I still think the degree of symmetry you insist on having inevitably imposes tedium, in particular those arachs around the outer wall were exceptionally boring, the mancs were pretty non-threatening as well. I suppose the macs might infight with revs and such if you were speeding through, though, maybe.

that lift after getting the 3 keys shouldn't be monster triggerable imo, if monsters get on it it's slightly annoying, although it makes the cybers much easier to handle if you fall off.... so idk.

I kind of liked the cramped plasma-gun-centric trap with the demons and AV, I think it might play better if the AVs tele in before the demons, so you sort of know where they'll be before things get too tight, if you did that you could probably add 1 or 2 more even to discourage camping a safe spot around the rim. Also it's probably pretty easy to get blasted out of the little arena, but ohwell.

The last fight was the high point of the map for me, the traditional HK/rev circle-strafing is made a bit more interesting with the lowering ledges, though I think they could come down a little bit faster. Also, is it an unwritten rule that every slaughtermap has to end with a group of AVs? heh, it's just something I started noticing recently.

Anyways that's my excessive commentary, liked it more than box1!

Last edited by Ribbiks on 11-28-12 at 05:16

Old Post 11-28-12 04:30 #
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Phml
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Fair enough. I just can't seem to make this work, and sacrificing the symmetry might as well mean throw the map away, so I think instead of trying to make a full-fledged map I'll just cut everything but the demon fight and the final fight.

Old Post 11-28-12 10:52 #
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Ribbiks
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it would be a shame to trash the rest though, for the most part I have no qualms with the starting area (obtaining the 3 keys is now relatively quick, so I don't really mind that symmetry too much), it's pretty much just the outer area. If the arachs/mancs around the rim were spiced up somehow I think overall it would be a solid map.

Old Post 11-28-12 11:57 #
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j4rio
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Two box FDA (sort of - played a bit yesterday but ran out of battery).

http://filesmelt.com/dl/twobox-fda-j4.lmp

Yup, definitely a notable improvement. Most of symmetry related fights drag on much less so it doesn't get tedious/repetitive. You could make cacos teleport in after taking each key rather than after having all keys. Regarding arachs/mancs, I'm with Ribbiks. I'd tinker around with lowering amount of arachs, there's unnecessary abundance I think.


cannonball said:

@J4rio, I might pm you about the ending of True Grit as this might need more discussion about potential options which might take a while and clog up this thread.



Sure, go ahead.

Old Post 11-28-12 12:13 #
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Phml
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Thing is, the stuff you guys seem to dislike is what I enjoy most. I liked Box 1 better than Box 2, too.

Despite that, objectively I can't disagree with anyone here. Your points make sense, and looking at your demos, it's not hard to see how it gets tedious for anyone who doesn't play exactly like me.

So I'm in that weird place where I'm trying to keep ideas that either don't fit with Doom or that I can't execute properly while also trying to accomodate for people who don't have my weird tastes, and it clearly doesn't work.

Much better to just cut most of it and focus on getting a select few parts right, already too much time spent on this particular map.

Old Post 11-28-12 13:31 #
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j4rio
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I think Rayzik has already showed us that butchering off chunks of map you consider good and trying to merge them somehow just doesn't work. I'm not a fan of handling maps like because I've seen it just end up not working numerously. Most of issues brought up here can be rather easily solved with different monsters/things placement and usage when compared to going for another layout overhaul.

Old Post 11-28-12 13:57 #
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Phml
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I think Rayzik has already showed us that butchering off chunks of map you consider good and trying to merge them somehow just doesn't work.


Heh, you'll just have to write me off as a mapper then, seeing as this is pretty much how it goes in most of my maps, including every single submission I've made to SF save for Crimson. ;)


Most of issues brought up here can be rather easily solved with different monsters/things placement and usage when compared to going for another layout overhaul.


Let me try to rephrase - what you guys name as issues (i.e. symmetry, repetition, arachs/mancs) are my favorite parts of the map. So what I need to do to make this enjoyable to others and what I need to do to make this enjoyable to me seem to be mutually exclusive goals.

Sure, I could tweak it so it's fun for everyone else and keep a personal tailored version on my HDD; but call it ego or something, it'd grate on me to publish something I don't even like. Trying and failing is acceptable, but actively putting effort into something I don't care for, meh.

Old Post 11-28-12 15:04 #
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j4rio
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Heh, well godspeed then.

Btw, I think we're slowly but surely reaching a point where unwanted serious quality check would take place. As in - a map that is past the halfdecent line would have to be dropped because of just not being enough room in main wad (I really didn't think this would actually be even remotely possible to happen few months back).

Just an idea to save some room - maps that use spam BFG would be placed to slots 33-35. There are so far 4 maps with spam BFG, out of which one could be placed to map 31 slot if AB tunes up decimal error (maybe boom town, it's quite funky and probably fitting a secret map slot). Those maps are also quite hard for me to implement into final map listing, so it'd solve that as well. How does that sound?

Old Post 11-28-12 15:41 #
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Ribbiks
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just for fun here's another edit: wrong demo, sorry -.- for twobox (completes in 19:19):, I tried rushing and it definitely makes it more hectic. leaving all the arachs to infight with the mastermind made the demon/AV pit really intense because you get shot at from the edges.

Anyways yeah, end of the day it's your map so keep it however you wish.


As for the wad compilation, I think I agree. I guess the democratic course of action would be to encourage authors/playtesters to run through the submitted maps and share their yay/nay votes?

Last edited by Ribbiks on 11-28-12 at 18:36

Old Post 11-28-12 16:29 #
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Phml
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Stitch (replaces Twobox, requires SF2011-tex)

Little tweaks here and there, but no real change from the original plan (demon fight + final fight).

Edit: thanks for the demo Ribbiks. Not sure it's the right one though, in this one you die around the ten minute mark.

Last edited by Phml on 11-28-12 at 17:53

Old Post 11-28-12 17:45 #
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Ribbiks
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fffffff, sorry that -.-

you're probably getting sick of watching these, so this is the last one, promise! :) Stitch uvmax, 6:25, I'm pretty sure I played the first room differently than intended

Old Post 11-28-12 18:42 #
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Phml
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Stitch v2

There was a missing texture causing a HOM on a last minute teleporter, so I changed that and had to adjust sector height as well. Thankfully it doesn't desync your demo, so I took the liberty to throw it in the rar. :)

Cool trick! Definitely not intended, but it's staying.

Old Post 11-28-12 19:02 #
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j4rio
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I really wish I could say that I like it, but the menacing feelings that it's like a page torn out of book prevents me from it. I would probably prefer the very first version more. Besides I think the entire dependance on infights would make this particularly uninteresting for maxing when striving for better times.

Old Post 11-28-12 20:00 #
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dannebubinga
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Phml: U can jump from the first lowering platform to the PG and thereby prevent the demons from teleporting. But you can't progress without lowering the PG platform anyway, so no harm is really done.

Nice map :) Will play it some more later and maybe give you some more feedback. I haven't been into doom at all the last couple of weeks, but a nice Phml map might get me interested again ;)

Old Post 11-28-12 20:06 #
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Ribbiks
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lotta stressin over the box, ey?

Old Post 11-28-12 20:17 #
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j4rio
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I won't get a proper sleep today.

Old Post 11-28-12 20:31 #
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dobu gabu maru
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Meant to play Box2 and leave my comments but there's already another version? Yikes.

Played both, throwing in my two cents.

Tedium is fine on some maps. Since this is a slaughter compilation, you're bound to have players grow weary of all sorts of fights no matter how exciting they are to other people (like how some might find the rev horde in Crimson overbearing), so I feel like it's up to the author's discretion about how many enemies to fight/how symmetrical a level is. I didn't much enjoy Box1 (Although I still think it's visually superior to these two maps due to the immense scope), but it's mainly because I find endurance maps less appealing, especially since I use saves in and throughout major battles. Box1 is a pretty neat endurance map IMO, but once I nabbed one key, it felt like I could surely get the other two if I had the patience to go through the motions again. That and the hallway finale were big reasons why it didn't jive with me, although different people, different tastes.

I enjoyed Box2 more than Box1; the scaling down of the whole level really helped make the gameplay more frantic. Right from the start the fight with the baron is already more cramped and dangerous, and throwing in revs at the beginning onslaught keeps the player on their feet. Grabbing all three keys wasn't repetitive since it was a relatively short trip to pick them up, and I liked the use of hitscanners at the top to punish anyone running. Yet I share Ribbiks' sentiment that the arachs & mancs are not only tedious, but they're pretty non-lethal unless you're trying to speed through the map.

Not so sure about Stitch though. It takes the two most memorable fights from Box2 and enhances them, making them better but it just feels... small to me. Ideally, I'd love to have Box2 just without the player running along the edges, so it'd go from the starting area -> demon pit -> finale. It's still fun to play through, but I miss the warm up of Box2. Plus I like the feeling of being in some weird underground expanse.

EDIT: although there are still a couple things I'd suggest tweaking/fixing about Box2, since it didn't feel difficult enough IMO.

Old Post 11-28-12 22:23 #
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Rayzik
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j4rio said:
I think Rayzik has already showed us that butchering off chunks of map you consider good and trying to merge them somehow just doesn't work. I'm not a fan of handling maps like because I've seen it just end up not working numerously. Most of issues brought up here can be rather easily solved with different monsters/things placement and usage when compared to going for another layout overhaul.


So I take it that's a no on the newest edit of Warborn? ;P

Old Post 11-29-12 00:55 #
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j4rio
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Nah, I think warborn is ok. I had shore of hell in mind.

Old Post 11-29-12 07:05 #
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Ribbiks
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Electric Wizard v.4

Island of Mystery v.3

Final versions of both my maps

Old Post 11-30-12 02:46 #
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ArmouredBlood
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j4rio said:
Heh, well godspeed then.

Btw, I think we're slowly but surely reaching a point where unwanted serious quality check would take place. As in - a map that is past the halfdecent line would have to be dropped because of just not being enough room in main wad (I really didn't think this would actually be even remotely possible to happen few months back).

Just an idea to save some room - maps that use spam BFG would be placed to slots 33-35. There are so far 4 maps with spam BFG, out of which one could be placed to map 31 slot if AB tunes up decimal error (maybe boom town, it's quite funky and probably fitting a secret map slot). Those maps are also quite hard for me to implement into final map listing, so it'd solve that as well. How does that sound?



I wasn't particularly interested in working on decimal error just because of how much work it'd take, but I have another similar idea that might work better. I'll see if I can map it out sort-of quickly. The most time-consuming part of course will be putting in the thousands of mobs ... for now I'll just shunt in some mancs and imps into decimal error, see how that goes.

E: Well that didn't take too long to fix I guess. It's ... a bit rough, I think there are still too man hks, but it plays a lot better now. I should just take out the plasma guns, they're pretty worthless, but I'll leave them in so it has every weapon except the ammo-less bfg (what's that? No red bfg and 10k mobs? I just added a bunch of cell charge packs in convenient locations :). Debating reducing the invulns to 2, all 8 is ... a bit much right now, but I'm not sure on how tight this needs to be.

Last edited by ArmouredBlood on 11-30-12 at 08:27

Old Post 11-30-12 05:16 #
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