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Bloodite Krypto
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Speaking of the STBAR looking like Quake..

Super secret bonus if anyone knows where the title of my map is inspired from.

Old Post 08-15-13 11:12 #
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Bloodite Krypto
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So I'm guessing Insane_Gazebo clearly changed his name to Ribbiks because what in the fudge is MAP30, looks straight out of Sunder, it's Grinder Part II except x10 as long.

Why in god's name is their a backpack only at the start in a closed off section, such retarded nonsense ruins coop.

MAP25 - Fourtress is beautiful, the music and beginning caverns reminds me of Secret of Mana and Illusion of Gaia.

Last edited by Bloodite Krypto on 08-17-13 at 00:09

Old Post 08-16-13 23:34 #
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j4rio
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In map 30 defense, you can return to the beginning part through teleporter. I won't argue about lack of backpacking though. :p

E: Welllll, oops, actually, yeah, it's impossible to get back to start, as you can teleport back only to part after that. My memory's not what it used to be. Now that I think about it, I'm sure I adressed that at least once in this thread, I'm not digging it up though.

Last edited by j4rio on 08-17-13 at 01:45

Old Post 08-17-13 01:01 #
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Ribbiks
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So I fucked up backpack placement? eh. I made these sf maps before I had any real considerations for coop play, I called it a day after adding 'access from outside each room' teleporters and what have you. Sorry.


straight out of sunder? bah. my detailing was a lot cludgier, a more apt comparison might be that it's an uglier version of su07 + su11. The texture scheme was largeley because it's easy (see: lazy) to make big structures with it on a 32x grid. I'm interested if anyone ever ends up beating that one though, or map25 for that matter.

btw google says your map title is a 'faith no more' song, though I probably don't win any super secret bonus for cheating. interesting music video though..

Old Post 08-17-13 02:55 #
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j4rio
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Y'know, adding things that are only appearing in coop don't cause demo desynces, if you know what I mean. It'd be pointlessly wasted time making any coop adjusting if minor thingie ended up breaking whole map apart for coop anyway. I know scythe2 map30 has a similar problem and it was bugging me to no end. Now that I checked, all gigantic maps including 25, 26, 28, 29 and 30 have just a single backpack. Well, if things get a last round of making this monstrosity coop-friendly, I could look at 13/15 so they'd work on zandro. Does that 13 glitch-up always happen or was it just one-time experience?

Also, I'm curious if you forgot to add silent midis to maps in latest version? Not that I mind.

Last edited by j4rio on 08-17-13 at 03:17

Old Post 08-17-13 03:10 #
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Ribbiks
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killing me j4, you're killing me

sf2012 final version Z??



round up a list of things you think should be addressed, coop things indeed won't break demos but I'm hesitant to make changes to other maps that will. Even if there hasn't been demo activity on the later maps yet I feel it's annoying to tell people to redownload 'final' versions over and over -.-


edit: I removed silent midis from most maps (I think I left the one on map32?), because all it does is simply take the option away from the player, which is never a good thing to do imo.

Old Post 08-17-13 03:21 #
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j4rio
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All the cool wads had at least one re-release that broke all demos up. :p

I'd prefer if it was restricted just to things that won't even potentially break demos, so just backpacks atm. I assume 13 just breaks up because of once-in-a-millenium possibility of skipping linedef and 15 would just require a lot of labor so it would not end up breaking different ports. I'll wait up if Kryptic comes up with some other terrific zandro stuff and if it's exclusive to 15 I'd rather not touch it anymore. Blame port.

If anything is happenning, I also think 31 and 19 would benefit from silent midi more than doom2 ones. Getting a custom one at this point is probably not an option but I'm standing by stance that a map without any appropriate midi choice is like unused feature.

Last edited by j4rio on 08-17-13 at 03:40

Old Post 08-17-13 03:24 #
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Memfis
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lol guys
Is it really necessary to fix every little thing? :) All iwads and compet-n megawads are full of little and sometimes big errors and... people just learned to deal with them, didn't they? Perhaps there comes a time when you need to stop with the updates and move on to new things. First release of btsx E1 was posted like what, 9 months ago? And it still isn't done. Kind of ridiculous if you ask me. Umm, I guess I'm not saying that strive for perfection is bad but... Don't you get frustrated by having the wad in this "not quite final" state for so long?

Old Post 08-17-13 04:16 #
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j4rio
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Memfis said:
Is it really necessary to fix every little thing? :)



As long as I'm around - definitely!


Memfis said:
All iwads and compet-n megawads are full of little and sometimes big errors and... people just learned to deal with them, didn't they?



Nope. AV got re-released year after first release. Seems like compet-n guys were on the same boat. :p


Memfis said:
Perhaps there comes a time when you need to stop with the updates and move on to new things.



Proposed changes currently take roughly 3-4 minutes to implement and would possibly have drastic impact. That sort of stuff can persuade me anytime.


Memfis said:
First release of btsx E1 was posted like what, 9 months ago? And it still isn't done. Kind of ridiculous if you ask me.



I think in long run it doesn't matter how long was anything in the development cycle as long as it delivers. All that will be exposed to test of time will be a final form of wad and that's the only thing that really matters. Guys like Alm or c-n guys responsible for av realised that, and now after time passed there is really no reason to try supposedly final releases of their works. They gathered all the info about bugs in their wads over the year(s) in public sphere, and that's how we ended up with current scythe2 and current av forms.


Memfis said:
Umm, I guess I'm not saying that strive for perfection is bad but...



It's not really perfection. I usually concerned only about critical stuff.



Memfis said:
Don't you get frustrated by having the wad in this "not quite final" state for so long?



Well, assuming that I'll try not to get my hands involved in anything in wad form during upcoming century, it really doesn't bother me that much. I know I'm bothersome though.

Last edited by j4rio on 08-17-13 at 08:46

Old Post 08-17-13 08:35 #
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Bloodite Krypto
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Considering you start in a closed off section in MAP30 and their is no way of returning, it is inexcusable why their shouldn't be 4 Megaspheres and 4 Backpacks at the start, and yes it is a big deal because I was playing without item respawn and I died in the RK teleporter with the Holy Hell trap due to running out of cells between the 2nd Imp Barrage and the HK's coming in.

Also those later fights are very hectic so running out of cells at the wrong moment is lethal.

No, you are incompetent and shouldn't release something until it is coop friendly.

Also nice try Ribbiks ;) But my title is loosely based off a map in the cult classic Nehahra expansion for Quake, the penultimate map was called 'Your Last Cup of Sorrow' it had a very striking theme of melancholy and odyssey to it.

Last edited by Bloodite Krypto on 08-17-13 at 09:13

Old Post 08-17-13 08:35 #
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Ribbiks
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So I got an email about some of the MP changes that zdaemon folks had implemented in a patched version of the wad. The changes are dated June 18th, so I wonder if any of these were corrected on our end since then:


Changes:
~~~~~~~~

Workaround for texture GOTHBRN1 to avoid the aspect ratio problem. (e.g. map21)
Missing floor/ceiling texture (-NOFLAT-) changed to something less conspicuous.
(e.g. map22)

map01:
If a player dies inside the first trap: door opens, so other players can pass.

map03:
If a player dies inside the trap in the south east: wall lowers, so other
players can pass.

map20:
The switch of the door in the east seems like repeatable.
The wall which blocks the exit area lowers when a player presses "use" at the
top of the hill.

map21:
If a player dies in the yellow key area: wall lowers, so other players can pass.

map22:
If a player dies in the blue key area: wall lowers, so other players can pass.

map23:
All Rocket Launcher except one are changed to Rockets (ammo).
The Pillars next to yellow skull key lowers repeatable now and will raise if a
player jumps on one of the windows.

map29:
Lowers the steps in the Lava area (where the 3 Cyberdemons are) so it is
possible to shoot at the Fireblue texture to open the bars even when the upper
switch was pressed (which raises the steps and hides the Fireblue texture).
The script is triggered by Enter Sector near the switch that lowers the floor
behind the bar.


2013-06-18 Krawa



I'm curious how they did the map01/map03 change, did they simply make it so you can lower it from the outside, or is it some sort of fancy script that detects if a player dies inside? o.O


Anyways, combined with aforementioned grievances I think we may have substantive cause to release another "fix." They also expressed slight annoyance at releasing the recent /idgames version with the same file name as the last one, so maybe this one could explicitly be "sf12_final" or something?



j4rio said:
Well, assuming that I'll try not to get my hands involved in anything in wad form during upcoming century...


why's that?

Old Post 08-17-13 18:10 #
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j4rio
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Regarding zd mp stuff - Probably shenanigans with port. I believe those are zd scripts that get applied on certain server to wad instead of map getting edited. Map 1 was fixed, I don't recall any possible way to get stuck in 3, not sure what edits to 20 mean, 21 was fixed (I think? Coop teleporter or something was prolli added), 22 was fixed, 23 wasn't touched, but I think it's good idea to change rls in mp to rockets, can be done without desyncing I hope, 29 was fixed (I think? I believe the section it mentions was the one that did undergo edit).


why's that?


I've learnt to dislike playtesting and absolutely don't possess mindset to make maps from scratch.

Old Post 08-17-13 18:39 #
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TimeOfDeath
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I got an email about that too and I think he said they were using sf2012c.

23 and 29 are updated in the /idgames version, except for the yellow key part in 23. I can add multiplayer yellow keys to 23 if a new sf12 version gets released.

Old Post 08-17-13 19:37 #
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Krawa
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sf2012 is great wad and fun to play it multiplayer on ZDaemon.
The patch wad uses ZDoom's LOADACS and ZDaemon's PATCHINFO. 2013-06-18 is latest version. http://krawaserv.dyndns.org/wads/sf2012_zd_patch_v7.zip (Source code of the scripts included)
And yes, we play sf2012c.wad.
The problem is the difference between single- and multiplayer. If you are trapped in SP and you die there is no problem because the map restarts. In MP other players can't finish the map, because the trap is closed and the gameplay is "ruined". So other players can't find where to go and get bored, because they don't know what exactly happened.
If you would play the map MP with players who know the maps in SP it's a challenge not to die there (but the server on ZDaemon is public with "random" players with different skills).

map03:
If a player dies in the room in the south east other players can't finish the map, because a voodoo doll closes the door. Only the player inside could open the door. If he dies the MP gameplay is "ruined".
Detecting the position of a dying player with a script is possible, so the door opens. So it is possible to keep the gameplay without touching the original wad. Doom2 / Boom format mappers would use e.g. a switch or teleport to avoid the problem.

map20:
The switch of the door in the east *IS NOT* repeatable. (sorry for noob English). If a player dies there others can't enter the area.
Exit area has a similar problem.

Old Post 08-17-13 21:31 #
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j4rio
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Yeah, each of those things were already taken care of with coop teleporters by the time D version was up (except 3? dunno).

Old Post 08-17-13 21:46 #
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j4rio
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I was kinda willing to let this update bonzaza slip by but I noticed now that map 21 YK section is somehow really easy to totally break up and column with it doesn't lower, getting you stuck in. It happens sort of randomly when you push rapidly all 4 buttons that are supposed to lower it. Also monsters sometimes teleport in there without making noise and sometimes you need to make noise to have them teleport in.

So, yeah, bump.

Old Post 08-25-13 11:06 #
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dannebubinga
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Maybe this is old news. But when I pick up the pink BFG in both map 27 and 30, I get like -6340 shells and can't use my SSG anymore. Why? :/

Old Post 08-25-13 14:25 #
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j4rio
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Some dehacked limitation? I noticed it but never felt like bringing this up, since you'd barely run into situations where ssg is better than infinite ammo BFG.

Old Post 08-25-13 17:57 #
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TimeOfDeath
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Yeah, it seems to be hardcoded to remove ammo even if you set a weapon to be unlimited.

Old Post 08-27-13 00:00 #
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Bloodite Krypto
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So is this gonna get updated eventually after thorough checks?

Ribbiks Ribbiks please please fix MAP30, if a player dies in the passage way going to trigger the switch to open the BK bars to the red cave section, you can't get back in. Fortunately we could RJ up to the opposing wall to get the switch but I have no idea whether whoever died in that trap allowed it to happen, so we were very lucky we could continue from that odd glitch.

Also the switch near the Infinite BFG is a joke, you press it, HUGE and I mean HUGE RANDOM FRAMERATE DROP AND LAG, next thing you know 50 AV's in our face can't get Invul in time, Took 97 minutes to reach that point. I'm sorry but we honestly said fuck the author at this point for not testing it in MP, especially because their were still 1000 monsters left so we missed out.

'Probably about 200 hours or so constructing and playtesting this
elaborate beast.'


lol

Last edited by Bloodite Krypto on 09-01-13 at 20:07

Old Post 09-01-13 19:56 #
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j4rio
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Framedrop and lag is port dependant. Flicking off some options in zdoom ports reduces it, but never to the point of being as prb+, still I think you can play nuts in zdoom ports under some circumstances. It's not really map specific problem, sori.

Old Post 09-01-13 20:08 #
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Bloodite Krypto
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What, it matters when your playing online in Survival Coop with 2 lives and your wrecked from getting that far.

Old Post 09-01-13 20:16 #
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j4rio
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Were you able to play okupluntitled2 under same settings without 'HUGE FRAMEDROPS FUCK AUTHOR' kind of stuff? If so, then it's kinda weird, to say at least.

Old Post 09-01-13 20:24 #
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cannonball
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Perhaps it's the archviles causing the issue, if 50 archviles are lighting you up I guess that's going to cause some serious lag beyond the initial scale and size of the final arena.
To be honest there is not much we can do if the main port we are working to is pr-boom which is by far the best port to handle maps like this. Maybe I will go further and perhaps say maybe the fire and flames should be aimed at the port authors to get their ports up to scratch because it will hinder mappers in this genre if they have to compromise scale and epicness just because multiplayer servers melt at the sights of nuts.wad

Last edited by cannonball on 09-01-13 at 20:35

Old Post 09-01-13 20:28 #
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Ribbiks
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Bloodite Krypto said:
if a player dies in the passage way going to trigger the switch to open the BK bars to the red cave section, you can't get back in.


thanks.


Also the switch near the Infinite BFG is a joke, you press it, HUGE and I mean HUGE RANDOM FRAMERATE DROP AND LAG


sorry.


we honestly said fuck the author at this point for not testing it in MP



that's correct. map was designed with SP in mind, cludgey MP fixes occurred in various updates..... sorry.


lol


fu.

Old Post 09-01-13 20:30 #
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j4rio
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Conclusion - don't use zandrodung. Move along.

Old Post 09-01-13 20:46 #
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Bloodite Krypto
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I was only joking about the obscenity no hard feelings xD Still a sad man though :( It's nice in coop even if not intended.


j4rio said:
Were you able to play okupluntitled2 under same settings without 'HUGE FRAMEDROPS FUCK AUTHOR' kind of stuff? If so, then it's kinda weird, to say at least.


Surprisingly yes.. Oh god, not my idea of a good time though.



UPDATE: Right this wad needs fixing no joke, what the hell is a chance that an AV boosts you at the most inconvinient moment of 1 in a billion behind this AV cage which should have blocked line defs. Thought Cannonball was good mapper D:

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l...zpsd80574cf.png

Last edited by Bloodite Krypto on 09-02-13 at 01:03

Old Post 09-01-13 22:03 #
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j4rio
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You can get launched behind bars by coop AV in your map too. NYAAAH! You're a horrible mapper too and everyone here should seriously consider seppuku!

Old Post 09-04-13 20:34 #
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Bloodite Krypto
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I apoligise xD First time mapper so I'm excused :P It's a lot of effort crafting your own twisted worlds, creating enjoyable gameplay, balancing out the item allocation and making sure it works in one piece, hard to cover all the hindsights.

Old Post 09-05-13 11:14 #
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RjY
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Map11 cannot be finished. The 4 lowering walls in front of the exit are set up as doors, not lowering floors. That is, floor and ceiling height are at surrounding floor height, so each floor has nowhere to lower to. Suggestions: either raise floor and ceiling heights of sectors 429, 457, 458, 459 from -384 to -152, adding missing lower textures as appropriate; or change special number of lines 2189, 2201, 2204, 2207 to a door-open type and untagging their back sectors.

sf2012 version dated 2013-08-04 23:21:30 UTC+1, zip crc32 5df09cdb, md5 fa0b485d66aba89945be307e539c8271. I believe this is the current /idgames version.

Also if you reupload this please consider standardizing the .zip contents: no subdirectories, no MacOSX metadata, files not marked executable...

Old Post 09-06-13 16:25 #
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