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gggmork
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I did a no monsters (tntem cheat) run on 30 to figure out the layout/what switches do/etc, then did an iddqd run with monsters to figure out a route (got the yellow key, didn't do the other keys w/ monsters yet). It all seems doable and not really over-the-top hard so far, about the right difficulty given the immense length, and suspect quite a few normal speedrunners would be able to beat the whole thing provided they spend the time needed to plan/memorize a route.

Awesome looking epic map. I like the verticle cut out circles and how the end stairs by the romero head organically curve their heights instead of being linear. And it all plays smooth framerate-wise for me so far; maybe you did that reject table thing mentioned on page 26.

I guess my annoyance with really long complex maps is probably all the memorization needed since my brain sucks at memory. Not a huge annoyance or anything, just that this particular breed of map demands quite a lot of pre-playing to take in the huge scope full of details. I remember TOD made a huge circular map with hallways as spokes coming out of the center. That was a fairly long map but less memorization was needed because of a basic repeating pattern of what you're supposed to do (like just head to the next spoke which is obvious, instead of figuring out what each unique switch triggers and the best strategy for each unique trap). And if there's tons of unique stuff to memorize, its often some little trap that you forgot about half way through that ends up killing you. That's just my opinion though and like each mapper being able to do whatever they want, which adds variety.

I already memorized a lot of it though, so might give a uvmax attempt whenever this thing is released, which won't be the fastest but I don't care. I still haven't played most other maps much yet.

Last edited by gggmork on 02-05-13 at 04:11

Old Post 02-05-13 04:01 #
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Grain of Salt
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MajorRawne said:
Writing lots of 40K and particularly Warhammer fiction trains you to be darker and more serious in your depiction of hell.

Not really. Warhammer is just one of those subcultures where people have a poor understanding of what "dark" and "serious" should mean. Much like Doom, really. Doom objectively isn't frightening, or dark, or violent, but for some reason we refer to it as if it is. Maybe because it's darker than Heretic and Wolfenstein 3D. Heh.

But, to stay on topic, I have to say I haven't attempted MAP30 without saves, but I bearing in mind the target audience I really don't see a problem in terms of difficulty. As long and sadistic as it is, I'd be very very surprised if the likes of Okuplok and Sindrom found it much harder than their usual fare. And to be blunt, I'm mystified that you "simply cannot survive the starting room on UV". The first room isn't that hard.

Old Post 02-05-13 05:00 #
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MajorRawne
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Grain of Salt said:

Not really. Warhammer is just one of those subcultures where people have a poor understanding of what "dark" and "serious" should mean.


I'm not entirely sure what that means. I'm talking about the Games Workshop's Warhammer game system and background. Warhammer is dark in the sense that it is brutal, grim and oppressive. The whole point is that humans live in fear of the terrible creatures that surround their civilisation. There is often a vein of humour (usually gallows humour) threaded into some of the published fiction and used throughout the rulebook, and they have definitely toned down the bleakness for today's ADHD generation, but anyone who says Warhammer isn't dark doesn't know Warhammer very well.


Grain of Salt said:
Doom objectively isn't frightening, or dark, or violent, but for some reason we refer to it as if it is. Maybe because it's darker than Heretic and Wolfenstein 3D. Heh.

The above statement is not relevant to PSX Doom and Doom 64. Not everyone grew up playing the PC version.

Old Post 02-05-13 16:53 #
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Grain of Salt
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MajorRawne said:
I'm not entirely sure what that means. I'm talking about the Games Workshop's Warhammer game system and background.

Yes, I know what Warhammer is. Thank you.


Warhammer is dark in the sense that it is brutal, grim and oppressive.

These are just more misused adjectives. Imprint is brutal. Gummo is grim. SalÚ is oppressive. Warhammer is none of these things.


The whole point is that humans live in fear of the terrible creatures that surround their civilisation.

zzzzzzzzzz


The above statement is not relevant to PSX Doom and Doom 64. Not everyone grew up playing the PC version.

Well, I did just mean PC doom, but neither of those versions are dark either, unless you literally mean "poorly lit".

Also, I've just noticed you've written something to appear "before MAP30"...? Why is that? There's no way of displaying it, besides ZDoomisms.

Old Post 02-05-13 19:02 #
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MajorRawne
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I wanted to do something to mark the occasion of playing map 30, I didn't say it needed to be implemented somehow.

As for your argument regarding Warhammer, you seem to approach the debate from the angle of a child who thinks they know something but immediately start getting things wrong. This is not a personal attack.

Old Post 02-05-13 20:26 #
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Grain of Salt
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You could always write something to go after MAP30 instead. Or even partially reuse your current MAP30 thing. It would make sense, since it's mostly from the point of view of someone who's already seen/seeing the map.


As for your argument regarding Warhammer, you seem to approach the debate from the angle of a child who thinks they know something but immediately start getting things wrong. This is not a personal attack.

Which things did you think were wrong?

Old Post 02-06-13 02:17 #
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MajorRawne
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Let's agree to disagree, I'm not falling out with someone over Warhammer :P

I still haven't heard from the project leader about whether my writing is suitable, but you're right, it would make better ending text with minor edits. I'll get some more stuff up with a modified tone and see which people prefer.

Old Post 02-06-13 10:54 #
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darkreaver
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dobugabumaru said:
Pure Hate update. Added music (Neo Steam by Strato) and put block lines around the cybie so he doesn't fly off the waterfall when you blast him.

Damnation update. Added difficulties, put block lines around one of the archies so he wouldn't get stuck when you shot him with a rocket, changed around/removed some health and ammo, and "updated" the final battle by replacing monsters and locking the player into the final arena. EDIT: darkreaver did give me the okay to alter his level around.





I tried the Damnation update, but it seems you updated an old version :(

I`m in a hurry now, but I can upload the new version so you can quickly do your edits to that one instead? If you want to. The version as is now (even though better than the un-editied one) really sucks, god damnit :(

Old Post 02-06-13 14:31 #
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dobu gabu maru
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darkreaver said:
can upload the new version so you can quickly do your edits to that one instead?


You might as well post it. I won't be able to edit any maps for a while but it might be interesting to see what the newer version looks like.

Old Post 02-06-13 18:14 #
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darkreaver
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I can quickly edit in the changes you made myself. And I didnt mean that your edits sucked, I meant the map in general =)

Old Post 02-06-13 19:38 #
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TimeOfDeath
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So all that's left to do is:

- darkreaver's new Damnation
- make txt file

Right?

Old Post 02-10-13 21:02 #
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dannebubinga
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In map 15: If you fall into the left side of the YK/spiderdemon area. You can't get up again since there's no teleporter on that side.

Old Post 02-10-13 21:19 #
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j4rio
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That's intended, sort of - I didn't want it to be possible to get back up from lava. There were no teleporters at all before secret exit stuff was added. It's altered now a bit :

Here's final map 15.

http://filesmelt.com/dl/Doomherolandia_v9.wad



TimeOfDeath said:
So all that's left to do is:

- darkreaver's new Damnation
- make txt file

Right?



- Map 7 - there are some unreachable secrets, also gameplay edits are supposedly in the making... ehhh
- map 28 - there's superfluous secret exit room I wasn't aware of before, it should be changed to be mandatory to visit before exiting (or something...)
- map 34 - add soulsphere near starting position, we had a chat on this quite a while back
- GoS's artsy stuff
- fix possible places that cause getting stuck in multiplayer, so far all that washed up are fixed

Also, if I'll ever try to max 29, I'll probably do homemade edit to make it work with glb+ and make demo play back similarly to map 30 here. I hope you won't mind.

Old Post 02-10-13 22:55 #
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koren
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jongo said:
map11: No idea how to get secret in sector 108, seems like a mapping error. [/B]
Yeah, definitely an error or holdover.

Old Post 02-11-13 20:33 #
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darkreaver
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I can do it tomorrow sometime

Old Post 02-11-13 21:24 #
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darkreaver
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http://www.sendspace.com/file/9br6kl

did I miss anything? I`m sorry but I dont have the time to playtest it to the max

edit: it`s Damnation

Old Post 02-14-13 01:57 #
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j4rio
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I swear I somehow managed to get teleported to solid wall. Besides that - switch near mastermind is possible to press from below and the starting area needs block lines so monsters won't get stuck on edges of sectors with height changes.

Eh, the room with spidermind got kinda boring with chaingunners replaced by torches. Now it's just... mastermind, heh. Whatever.

Oh, and plz replace map 25 midi with this cuz current one is too short considering map lenght.

Old Post 02-15-13 02:53 #
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darkreaver
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j4rio said:
Whatever.



My thoughts/feelings exactly :P Sad but true. Are there really not any better maps to put in SF12 than this one? hehe

I was under the impression that the archviles that lower from sector 5 would be a little more threat --> forcing you into the spider-room, but I guess...maybe not :P I just found the chaingunners to be really annoying. Maybe I can put some other mobs into the spider room? Maybe replace the spider? Help :(

Old Post 02-15-13 11:11 #
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FTW395
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there is a problem with map 30 in zandronum same goes for zdoom etc.
here is the problem: http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/...om201302151.png
could it be fixed in the next version because i really want to play that map in coop :)

Old Post 02-15-13 11:30 #
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dannebubinga
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I thought the map was good as it was. There's no need to get stressed really. Just fix the few mapping errors j4rio said and then playtest with a monster placement that feels good for you. You can do this in 30 min ;)

Old Post 02-15-13 11:30 #
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j4rio
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darkreaver said:


Maybe I can put some other mobs into the spider room? Maybe replace the spider? Help :(



Dunno. I would try replacing chainers with HKs, make their pillars smaller and wider (so they could infight with MM and later with revs), get blocky lines around them and maybe some sort of trigger that reveals them or something. Other than that, maybe lost souls could get released, so you'd get a MM version of scythe2 map5. Up to you.

Old Post 02-15-13 14:30 #
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Ribbiks
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FTW395 said:
there is a problem with map 30 in zandronum same goes for zdoom etc.
here is the problem: http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/...om201302151.png
could it be fixed in the next version because i really want to play that map in coop :)



holy shit, why did that happen?

Old Post 02-15-13 15:32 #
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FTW395
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i have no idea in prboom and glboom it's all fine but for some odd reason it isn't in zandro

Old Post 02-15-13 15:34 #
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j4rio
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Clearly a sabotageous effort by the port authors. You might want to consult with gggmork on the matter.

Old Post 02-15-13 18:10 #
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FTW395
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nah i'm good it's very easy to fix you just set the chaingunners on the floor that they need to be on eventually and you remove the tags from the linedefs.

Old Post 02-15-13 18:40 #
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Ribbiks
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I have no idea what you just said

the problem seems to be that chaingunners along the diagonal are too close too eachother and zdoom gets mad, if they're removed, works fine.

Last edited by Ribbiks on 02-15-13 at 18:52

Old Post 02-15-13 18:45 #
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FTW395
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ye ik i don't have enough skill in english to explain what i mean.
but when you enter the room the floors with chaingunners raise.
can't you just put the chaingunners that they don't need to raise.
like here i didn't cross the linedef but the chainers are already up there.
http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/...om201302152.png
do you understand now what i'm trying to explain?

Old Post 02-15-13 19:53 #
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Ribbiks
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oh ok, I understand what you mean, though for a couple of reasons I don't think that's not an ideal solution.

I'll fenagle with it and fix it.

Old Post 02-15-13 20:20 #
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j4rio
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Yo dawgettes, it's a bump.

I noticed some possible exploitabilities in map 25, so here's even more final version of it.

Old Post 02-24-13 15:01 #
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Ribbiks
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bug-fixes ahoy

Anathema v7.2

- Fixed YK room, so it's happy in zdoom
- Fixed some floating items and other small visual annoyances
- Fixed exploit that could break the final room

Old Post 02-24-13 22:20 #
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