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MajorRawne
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To be honest it seems like Panophobia needs to the end of October to be properly ready.

Old Post 09-15-12 08:01 #
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dobu gabu maru
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I think releasing it on Halloween would be a really neat idea, plus since the deadline is coming up, I think we're most seriously working on their maps instead of procrastinating. One month could do wonders to our maps.

Old Post 09-15-12 09:07 #
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MajorRawne
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That would allow,me time to finish my other two maps and we could use the Halloween theme for our title screen or intermission ;)

EDIT: Here is the updated version of Arachnophobia:

http://www.mediafire.com/?czdw9q1cp7x0941

Here is the music:

http://www.mediafire.com/?bbh7byiu4po70r4

Map still not fully playable. Difficulty levels are not implemented and teleporter traps do not work correctly. Ammo balance is not in place and many monsters are missing.

I would greatly appreciate someone telling me if the trees look good or crap.

I think the music is from ROTT. I just had it on my hard drive for some obscure reason and I am not 100% sure it suits the map, but it has a melodramatic feel which I like.

EDIT:

Urgent - Fiend, I have installed the latest DB2 on my computer and now the fucking thing won't load my maps, I just get exception errors, and DB1 won't work either. Why release a new version of DB that won't work on some computers? Why not provide links to the older version? Why? Just why?

Unless someone can send me an older version of DB2 my contribution to this megawad is over.

Temple of Forgotten Gods (WIP)
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q255/nopoet406/rawnwatrwad_MAP01.png

Nightmare in Spiderland (WIP)
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q255/nopoet406/rawnspdrwad_MAP01.png

Last edited by MajorRawne on 09-16-12 at 19:39

Old Post 09-15-12 13:14 #
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fiend-o-hell
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In the interest of making this project as good as it could be, I think its best we release Panophobia on Holloween as opposed to the end of September! Everybody is irking me over it, so I had to budge on it. I'll definitively recompile and release another Pano pack that includes the revised maps from this week. Don't forget to leave me an updated description or list to go along with the DL link.

@pabloD: nice to hear from you again Pablo. That reminds me I still need to finish up that standalone level! Anywho, thanks for the revision and yes, I'll re-title your level back to Spellbound. I'll be sure to check it out again!

@dobugabumaru: great to hear The Sigil is almost finished. I'll play test and post by the end of today actually! Your comments about it are duly noted. Hopefully with the deadline pushed back, you have time to fix your comp and continue editing the level.

@Retog: Yes sir!

@MajorRawne: I'll give arachnophobia a thorough play test today as well. Sucks to hear about your editor problems! I don't believe I have run into that problem before so I can't really help you per se. Try posting over on the editing thread for help?

Last edited by fiend-o-hell on 09-16-12 at 23:01

Old Post 09-16-12 22:56 #
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BloodyAcid
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Rawne, how do you get an image like that?

Old Post 09-16-12 23:43 #
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ducon
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Omgifol.

__________________
A shell, an imp.

Old Post 09-17-12 06:09 #
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fiend-o-hell
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Ran short on time today, so I wont be able to post my play test examinations and FDAs. I'm gonna try to do one level a day during the week, but don't hold me to it!

The next dev release will come in the next couple days! So look forward to that. My thanks goes out to all those who contributed this week!

Old Post 09-17-12 07:54 #
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MajorRawne
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Bloodyacid: I opened the map in Slade 3. This allows you to save images of your maps. That was the first time I used Slade 3 though so I don't know if you can get it to display Things or if it just shows you the Lines.

Fiend: I'm working on it. The October release date has taken a lot of pressure off me with all these bloody stupid Doom Builder problems, which are now fixed thanks to GreyGhost. EDIT: Ammo balance and the Madman's bluff area have been improved since my last upload. I've only been working on the Spiderland map this month.

Last edited by MajorRawne on 09-17-12 at 20:44

Old Post 09-17-12 20:35 #
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dobu gabu maru
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Glad to see the release date pushed back, even if it did come with some reluctance fiend. The fan for my PC should be arriving some time this week, so I'll get back to work ASAP. Also, when I finish The Sigil (which I intend to do before the end of September) I can help detail or finish one of your levels Major, since I still think you're pretty overburdened. That is, if you want me to.

Old Post 09-18-12 01:05 #
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MajorRawne
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EDIT: I've re-written this post as it was getting too long and I have new questions.

Dobugabumaru: Thanks for the offer. My Spider and Water maps are driving me insane and they are nearly ready for complete alpha playtesting. I need someone to point out every possible little niggly flaw. They should be uploaded in the next couple of days.

I can now see why large, open, over-scaled maps are rare in Doom. I'm concentrating on unusual and disctinctive gameplay with greater than usual levels of freedom as I am simply too much of a newbie to compete with some of this project's well-known members when it comes to intricate and amazing detail.

Fiend: I doubt my Spider map will run in vanilla Doom 2 by the way.

Teleporter traps: Help required
I've been using Fiend's map 12 as my guide and have learned a lot from it. Never underestimate the old-fashioned notebook and pen. (I'm starting to feel like an old git these days. I'm 33.)

However I cannot get monsters to activate if they are in separate rooms which are not connected to the main map. I don't know why the monsters activate in Fiend's map but not in mine. This is CRITICAL for my Spider map. I've started rebuilding my monster rooms to take on board what I've learned from Vertigo Limit but am obviously missing some important insight.

Last edited by MajorRawne on 09-18-12 at 16:55

Old Post 09-18-12 14:46 #
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BloodyAcid
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I haven't checked it out, but if you're going by sound trigger, make sure to join the two rooms somehow. If you're using scroll floor and things, make sure to include a WR Teleport at the end which leads back to the beginning of the scroll floor.


If all else fails, check for the most obvious TIDs, linedef tags, space for teleporting, etc.

Old Post 09-18-12 20:54 #
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MajorRawne
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BloodyAcid, when I try to change linedef sector references I get all kinds of strangeness happening. That's what I was originally trying to do. I'm gonna check Fiend's map in more detail but from what I've seen so far, his monster room linedefs reference the monster room sectors. There is some evil magic afoot!

EDIT: I just can't work it out. I guess progress on this map is now stalled until Fiend can tell me why his traps work and mine don't, or someone spends ten seconds checking my map to tell me what's wrong.

New upload here:

http://www.mediafire.com/?qzn9b1c9cx3asr1

Last edited by MajorRawne on 09-19-12 at 15:30

Old Post 09-19-12 15:12 #
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fiend-o-hell
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@dobugabumaru: Been playing The Sigil and so far I think its awesome! The only thing I can say for now is that I think the difficulty level is a bit to much (I was playing UV, dunno if you incorporated diff settings) and health is way to low. Otherwise the detailing and effects are quite extraordinary! Once I beat it I'll release the demos for you to take a look at dobugabumaru.

Old Post 09-20-12 03:04 #
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MajorRawne
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I'm considering withdrawing from this project.

Building the maps was fun at first but I'm now having so many problems I can barely face loading Doom Builder any more. I'm finding Doom mapping to be way too problematic and I'm having to download stuff that I can't get to work and don't even know how to use anyway, like Zennode. It's just too much hassle and I feel that my weeks of hard work are simply being undone by technical annoyances which apparently can't be resolved.

Old Post 09-20-12 15:08 #
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fiend-o-hell
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Aw Major don't be that way. Keep it going man! You got another month to go and everyone here is striving to make some progress, so don't stress it. I'll try getting around to testing your levels next after I'm finished playing Sigil so I can give you more direction. I've been thinking about how to better organize the levels and such, but first I need to play them all to get a better idea.

I usually don't worry much about the node builder since I basically just leave it on zdbsp. Unless someone else says that's bad to use for non-zdoom ports, just use that.

And if you have any technical questions, just keep posting on the editing forums for technical help. I know I had a bunch of problems when I started. Heck I still do! I'm sure people around here are happy to help out!

Old Post 09-21-12 05:07 #
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dobu gabu maru
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Like I said Major, I can check out any levels you're having a problem with, that way we can see if it's just your DB or not (although I'm not as good at mapping as some others here).

Also fiend, I'd like to see your FDAs any time you can send them (I don't need you to beat the level, I just want to see how it plays for you). Thanks for the feedback about the health too, although it'd be nice to know what areas need more health (since backtracking really isn't an option).

Old Post 09-22-12 06:36 #
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MajorRawne
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Thanks for the encouragement!

I'm gonna forget about the nodebuilder crap for now and just finish the bloody Spiderland map according to my original vision. You gents can pick it apart afterwards. I don't really care if this won't run in vanilla, it's 2012 not 1994, but if everyone wants it to be vanilla compatible I will be open to their suggestions - just don't make them vague!

Whatever your mapping skill, I can assure you you're further along than I am.

I'll get another alpha of the map up this weekend for a brief playtest but note the teleporter traps won't be working, so it may be fairly boring. I think the map looks really good now, so I just want to know which bits are too big or need modification/removal.

Old Post 09-22-12 17:18 #
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fiend-o-hell
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@dobugabumaru: oh shutup X D. Not as good at mapping huh. Well that level was freakn amazing and it makes for an awesome Panophobia finish. The only thing I would advice is toning down the finale cuz it was way hard and I couldn't figure out how to beat it. Apart from that, I just saw texture misalignment and such. I'll try pointing more stuff out later.

DOWNLOAD FoHs SIGIL_v2 FDA

Recorded using prboom on skill 4 without complevel 2 on cuz it would have made your level a lot more difficult to play test.

@Major: I'll try out your maps next... just give me some time though!

Old Post 09-23-12 01:59 #
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dobu gabu maru
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Thanks for the awesome FDA fiend, it was definitely needed. You did like 3-4 things I never would have thought about doing, and you actually broke a couple the way a couple of the fights are "supposed" to go! Plus it was helpful to see where I needed to put health in while you ran around at death's door (I usually play going for 100% kills/no secrets, but I can see how hard the map punishes you for not scavenging).

And the finale in that version is the most unfinished thing in the map. I plan to remodel the temple area, add some lights to it and make it easier to see that what you need to do is climb to the top. I might remove two more cyberdemons since they can be such a pain in the ass, but I commend you for trying at least. I'll try to give better feedback on your maps when I have the time.

EDIT: Also Major, I took a look at Spider Island and I noticed how big it was. Doombuilder has an issue with you making anything larger than ~32000 by ~32000. Beyond that though, it also starts to cramp down on the size of the map depending how many nodes there are. For instance, I had to reduce the size of the sigil in my map because as I was detailing the map, I couldn't save nodes after adding in some details.

My advice to you is to put the "THIS WAY" above the boxy area at the bottom left, and bring the mystery area closer. OTher than that, you may want to squish the boxy area down a bit. But those should potentially solve your problem.

Last edited by dobu gabu maru on 09-23-12 at 06:25

Old Post 09-23-12 04:36 #
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fiend-o-hell
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@dobugabumaru: no problemo. Also I'd like to add just how difficult the third iteration was too (the green temple)...

@Major: I play tested both your Spider Island and Water Temple maps. For one thing they are two similar maps that have the same look/feel and suffers from the same problems . I'll be blunt here Major, I felt they were far to open and aimless, to the point that they are boring. You need to liven them by thinking more conventionally about how someone goes about playing Doom.

I feel pabloD's map already provides a richer exploratory experience with Spellbound, so it would be tough for me to green light this project with so many huge open-ended maps. What will have to be done here is to split up your maps into multiple stages in order to make them reoccurring visits throughout the wad. So we can do a Spider Island Pt1 for map slot 04 for instance, all the way up to a Pt3 or 4 for slots 7 and 10 respectively. You've have already established some good groundwork here, you just need to go that extra mile in order to flesh them out more.

DOWNLOAD FoH's FDA of MajorRawne LEVELS
Play tested using latest release of zdoom.

Old Post 09-23-12 20:04 #
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Death Egg
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Pain Consumes v.3

Still not done with monster or ammo placement, just wanted to upload a version that has a more complete map layout.

Old Post 09-23-12 20:38 #
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MajorRawne
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Thanks for the feedback Fiend. I'll do what I can but I've been working on these maps since July and as it's now nearly October, and this is the first playthrough feedback my water map has received, I doubt I can do everything in the resubmitting. I think I can come up with a workable idea to split the spider map in two. I'm a bit surprised you found the water map boring. The spider map is basically uninhabited at present.

Old Post 09-26-12 23:01 #
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MajorRawne
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Ok, I'm reorganising things. How about this:

FEAR OF WATER

* We keep my water map in its current slot. I'll connect areas more conventionally rather than through teleporters to avoid complication and improve the flow. The player is primarily outdoors in this map.

* Given the intensity of the fighting in certain areas, I'm not really sure why you think this map is boring. I conclude it's the expansive areas which are to blame but I feel you mixed this up with Spiderland. Therefore I'll tighten the wide areas up, add a few more monsters and bring the different areas of the map closer together.

FEAR OF SPIDERS

* I'll split this map into 2. The first segment can be a swamp surrounding the Fear of the Past map. This map can be on the outskirts of Spiderland; it could be a research outpost that has been left to decay. There would be thematic elements from the Spiderland map eg a view out over the swamp. This is a techbase map. If this doesn't work out I won't shed any tears, but I'm going to give it a shot.

* The second segment will be the Spiderland map. This can be map 7. I am not planning on using the special map 7 Arachnotron/Mancubus effect because I was sick of that in 1997. I will differentiate this map from Fear of the Past so you don't feel you're playing the same level twice. This is an outdoor swamp map.

* Note that due to time constraints, the thematic flow will be improved if Fear of the Past and Spiderland follow consecutively. Then you can finish one map in the start area of the next. I'm sorry if this means someone's map has to change slot; hopefully they won't care! :)

Due to time constraints and a lack of other feedback, I'm going ahead with this from now until the end of the run. I'm buggered if I'm going down without a fight!

Old Post 09-27-12 20:35 #
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dobu gabu maru
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Hey Major, I played through Drowning, gonna add my two cents.

The start is great as it causes the player to initially panic, and then try their best to play it safe. Nothing wrong with the next few areas, but the room with the PE needs a bit more ammo in it. I was running around with 14 bullets after that when I had that room full of imps to fight, which is never fun. Also in that room, you don't provide a teleporter out if they fall which can confuse the player. It wouldn't be so bad to leave the teleporter out, but you also force the player to wait on a raising platform near the dark at the end, which can cause them to initially run off the first time into their death.

In the next room with the razor thin platforms, it might be nice to have a couple imps about to provide projectile fire, as it's not really that threatening until you run into the specters. And then the next room... you need to give some more ammo here too. I had to skip an HK since I didn't want to chainsaw him. The walkway with health on it is fine, as the imps provide some nice fire, but maybe you could throw a caco or two in to provide some mobile fire. Also, the RL platform is switch-activated but uses the same texture as the pedestals in the previous area (which are not switch-activated), which is a big no-no to me. I say just put it on the ground and let the player chance getting damaged to pick it up, or at least change the texture. And the door to the teleporter secret needs the walls unpegged since the texture slides down when it reveals.

In the next room, the mancs provide no challenge as you can zip past them, and the one AV is easily subdued. Add in one or two AVs in with him and you could provide enough pressure on the player that the mancs could easily come from behind and provide some hell. Through the tele, I don't think the arrow on the ground is needed as long as you put some more blue torches surrounding the "wrong" side of the wall. Past that, the cacos take too long to get to you and the cybie can be easily skipped. Requiring the player to take a lift to the tele would be better, along with bringing the cacos closer so there's an infight possibility with the cybie. Also, the side walls for the tele are untextured.

Past that tele, you warp in a baron which is cool, but in that size of a room, he can be disposed of. Making the room smaller, or replacing him with 2 revs will push the player out. The walkway ahead is good, but mancs would provide better pressure than cacos, especially since the walkways are linear. Then you have a teleporter on the following island that takes you back a few rooms. TAKE THAT OUT. Replace it with the teleporter in the water directly ahead of the player. No one wants to forcibly go backwards in the map, unless that's the theme (like Fear of the Past).

Past that, more untextured walls are revealed when the floor crumbles. After that, the player has no incentive to go backwards and fight the demons since they can just go through the tele and run into the exit. At least provide obstructions so they can't just zip to the end.

Unlike fiend though, I love the expansive feeling of the map. Seeing the vast ocean in front of you, all of which is lethal is pretty frightening. The only problem is that the gameplay is made haphazardly, rewarding the player more for running than sticking a battle out. It's fine if that was your intention, but it just makes UV maxing the map a chore.

------

Also fiend, I was thinking about map order, and now that major's map is going to be split into two, maybe we could reorganize it a bit. This is what I was thinking.

We could start the level set off by putting the player onto the coast location at the bottom left part of Spider Island, introducing them thematically to the island of terror. I would save Whispers in the Dark for much later though, since it is more of a chaotic and dark map. And I would move Meat Train forward since all weapons are given in that slaughtery map. Also I was thinking what we could do to link Vertigo Limit and The Sigil together is make the exit of VL the bedroom of The Sigil, having the player warp there, or go through the front door to reach it. That's just my idea though, since I like continuity.

So basically,

01 - Spider Island part 1 (Outskirts)
02 - The House that Fear Built (according to Major's theme)
03 - Pain Consumes
04 - Spellbound
05 - Blood Urge
06 - ????
07 - Spider Island part 2
08 - Drowning
09 - Ruin Me
10 - The Meat Train
11 - Whispers in the Dark
12 - Vertigo Limit
13 - The Sigil
31 or whatever - Cacophobia

I have slot 6 empty since the EP2 sky only works at level 12 and beyond, meaning that we need to put another map in if Cacophobia is to be our secret level. What we could do is take split Spider Island up one more time and put another level there, or we could take a crack at making a short and simple level that would fit in at like MAP03 and move the rest forward. I could probably make up the bare bones of a simple fear map if you wanted to fill it with enemies.

Old Post 09-28-12 03:57 #
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Death Egg
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Pain Consumes v.4

There, now it should be about complete. Feel free to criticize now since the monster placement/map design is mostly finished.

Old Post 09-28-12 04:35 #
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MajorRawne
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TrueDude, I wish I had time to check your map, hopefully once I've made progress I can playtest it for you.

Dobugabumaru, what can I say, that was an epic reply with details I've been crying out for these last few months. You should give classes in providing feedback ;)

Bear in mind these are my first ever solo maps to be submitted to a project.

It seems like you enjoyed the map, which was good, and apart from some strangely missing textures you give the impression that the map is spot on in the areas I wanted it to succeed which are visuals and the sense of being in danger.

The start area is supposed to give you a "doomed", trapped feeling, which clearly works. I can amend the Cacodemons at the beginning to give the player a scare and I'll make sure the player gets a shotgun sooner. I already made the chaingun available sooner as you now get it when you cross through the first teleporter and appear in the cave. You used to have to work to get the chaingun.

Monster, ammo and health balance are all out of whack but your feedback tells me precisely what I wanted to know. THANK YOU. Adding a lift near the Cyberdemon would be extremely unpleasant and would force the player to confront the Cyber, so that will definitely be implemented. Virtually everything you mentioned is easy to implement. It will play like a different map afterwards, much tighter and more aggressive.

Ok, following your excellent suggestions I am now looking at the following:

Map 1: Based on the start area of Spiderland. This will narrow into an upwards climb with close walls, ledges and vegetation, and the map will finish at the House That Fear Built (map 2). Perhaps this could be a claustrophobia map. It would be a serious honour for my map to go first - this of course depends on how other contibutors feel.

Map 2: The House That Fear Built - a decaying tech-base built on the edge of swampland. Over the years, the swamp has claimed this place. This map will feature tributes to maps from Doom and possibly Doom 2 and/or Final Doom. Some of them will be somewhat hidden.

Map 7: Spiderland. This will be properly set in a swamp with many more dead trees, much more brown water, with many more Arachnotrons and a Mastermind.

Water Map: Just needs visual and gameplay tweaks.

Meat Train: Not sure if I will be able to finish this map in the time allowed. No idea how to fiddle with complevels. I was just going to retexture it and I've dropped the idea of adding a city at the beginning.

Old Post 09-28-12 14:01 #
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dobu gabu maru
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Played Pain Consumes. Some comments.

Overall this is an extremely tense level, one that inspires fear in its core gameplay. While Drowning is more expansive level that tiptoes around the damaging floor experience by making you stay above water, this places you headfirst into it, giving you small bits of reprieve only when it allows. "Pain" is a very well expressed theme IMO.

But I did have a few gripes with it. As it stands, it's obnoxiously difficult for an early mapset level, although the shortness doesn't make it unbearable. And what I mean by "obnoxious" is that you have to pretty much know the layout from top to bottom in order to have a good chance to survive. The use of chaingunners and revs easily lead to quick deaths, let alone the fact that you're running on %10 damaging floors most of the time which lead you to get sniped more often than you should. Knowing enemy placement beforehand is key, which tends to be unfair against people running the level for their first time.

I think the biggest thing that'd help is more health. Running around in the first few areas is a tad confusing since its a loop, and the player is likely to lose health just making the big circle until they go into that one room. More ammo would be appreciated too, since there were 2-3 moments where I had to punch some monsters (like a baron) or just bolt past them. Getting the yellow key was a nightmare to do with 4 shells. The ammo in the beginning is mostly fine, but there needs to be more for the yellow key part and beyond, especially since a new player is likely to allow the PE to spam lost souls when they first encounter them.

Also, the pedestal with the AV should have block monster lines around it, and there needs to be a bit more to the ending since it's too easy just to run down and skip the baddies.

It's still a good level that'd fit better on later in the mapset, but as it stands in general its too strict with health and ammo.

I'll review fiends levels next.

Old Post 09-29-12 12:36 #
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MajorRawne
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Dobugabumaru, I have significantly revised my water map with your comments in mind. I won't continue to dominate this thread with details; suffice to say the ammo balance is far better. The map is nearly ready and just requires visual tweaks.

There has been no progress on the other maps yet. However I have had an idea for map 1. I was thinking of calling it Welcome To Hell. The theme would be fear of losing one's mind. I have a particularly disturbing set of ideas for this map. It remains to be seen how good these will look once I implement them...

Old Post 09-29-12 17:44 #
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fiend-o-hell
Member


Posts: 331
Registered: 01-06


I like your map order dobugabumaru. Still, I think Spider Island needs a considerable amount of work, especially now that is its being considered as a starter. I think a Dead Simple style of map for Map 06 is an excellent idea. If you would do the honors for starting it off dobugabumaru.

For the most part I agree with dobugabumaru's comments on TrueDude's level. It is obnoxiously difficult. I only played up to v3 but I died a lot. I'll try going more in-depth after a decent play through of v4.

I'll handle all the continuity elements between levels, but only after the map order is fully agreed upon and the levels themselves are very close to completion.

Old Post 09-29-12 18:46 #
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MajorRawne
Senior Member


Posts: 1339
Registered: 04-10


Ok. After somewhere between 4 and 6 hours' work on Temple of Forgotten Gods (the water map) today, I am confident the map, which weighs in at 737kb, is nearly ready. The map is challenging without being super-hard. The temple area is now as scary as shit.

Here is the most recent upload along with a very long changelog. I have not found any issues in the first half of the map. I HAVE NOT PLAYTESTED PAST THE DARK ROOM WITH THE WITCH FACES YET.

Map
http://www.mediafire.com/?gruj77ku23aigbm

Text File
http://www.mediafire.com/view/?2xds9awx3le9bb1

Old Post 09-29-12 21:59 #
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