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Blackgaze
Green Marine


Posts: 32
Registered: 05-12


Hi, I've just been more active on the DOOM mapping community, than before.

Is it too late to submit a map? With a soon-release date and hundreds submitted, is it pointless to try? I would LOVE to make a map in the style of the classics, it been amazing to take part. A week-average is all I need!

Also like DOOM2, the difficulty increased on the maps as the game went on, as did the texture feels (from base to city to hell etc)
If I DO get a chance to make a map, how limited am I on creating the theme and the difficulty level?

I've always wanted to do my tribute to the level designs of DOOM2, and I was very tempted to my unofficial expansion with new enemies, weapons and the such while being in feel to the original mappers. But I decided to work on a more "new" project.

Old Post 09-01-12 21:55 #
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purist
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Xaser said:

This is more or less what I've been doing with my personal copy of the compiled wad (yeah, I'm doing it again D: ). Maps that are 'maybe's get stuck in with the rest of 'em though their slot tends to get swapped often when something better comes along. Still, even with all the good stuff and plausibly-good stuff (along with two unfinished but promising maps), the numbers still total up to less than 30 maps (not counting the secret levels ATM). Meaning we could still use some more community muscle. ;)


Something like a forum/website published semi-official running order may direct would be mappers into areas of the megawad most in need of contributions.


...Meanwhile, I've updated Starport Anomaly.

Accompanying changelog and notes can be found on the D2TWiD site.

Old Post 09-01-12 22:33 #
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Alfonzo
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Blackgaze said:
Is it too late to submit a map? With a soon-release date and hundreds submitted, is it pointless to try? I would LOVE to make a map in the style of the classics, it been amazing to take part. A week-average is all I need!
Oh, you've got loads of time, so sally up! The first project saw over 100 maps submitted, where as here we've only recently passed the 30 mark.


Also like DOOM2, the difficulty increased on the maps as the game went on, as did the texture feels (from base to city to hell etc)
If I DO get a chance to make a map, how limited am I on creating the theme and the difficulty level?

Well, we're looking to imitate not only the design styles of Romero, Petersen and McGee but also the arrangement and distribution of maps seen in the commercial product. There are clearly some odd disengagements from a straight up spaceport > cityscape > hell setup, most easily seen in maps like The Inmost Dens and The Abandoned Mines, so there will be a lot of leniency when it comes to allocating maps. With regards to difficulty, as long as you stay conscious of the difficulty trend when mapping into your desired area of the game, there won't be a problem. Again, there's room for spikes (and troughs!).

Welcome aboard! Give the first project a run through if you haven't already: This project is more than just a vessel for classic maps! :)

Last edited by Alfonzo on 09-02-12 at 01:35

Old Post 09-02-12 01:29 #
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Blackgaze
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st.alfonzo said:
Oh, you've got loads of time, so sally up! The first project saw over 100 maps submitted, where as here we've only recently passed the 30 mark.

Well, we're looking to imitate not only the design styles of Romero, Petersen and McGee but also the arrangement and distribution of maps seen in the commercial product. There are clearly some odd disengagements from a straight up spaceport > cityscape > hell setup, most easily seen in maps like The Inmost Dens and The Abandoned Mines, so there will be a lot of leniency when it comes to allocating maps. With regards to difficulty, as long as you stay conscious of the difficulty trend when mapping into your desired area of the game, there won't be a problem. Again, there's room for spikes (and troughs!).

Welcome aboard! Give the first project a run through if you haven't already: This project is more than just a vessel for classic maps! :)



I started with DOOM2 before DOOM(1), despite having the shareware version too. So I'm more familar with DOOM2 maps.

In fact it was funny, I was studying DOOM2 maps for when I was working on my fake extension, so I can use what I learnt for this map.

I be starting my map as soon as possible. There are many maps I loved, but "The Spirit World" with that music and red/blue hell textures is my favourite, and I will tribute towards that.

Thanks for the chance, and I hope (if it's any good to you) my map makes the cut!

Old Post 09-02-12 02:09 #
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Marcaek
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I just did some more playtesting and came up with a lot of ideas, so expect updates to my 2 maps, and the release of a third soon.

Old Post 09-02-12 03:20 #
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Blackgaze
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I didn't want to copy a template for a map but rather create a new one using similar techniques from Romero, Sandy, Mcgee (etc).

My map is called "Hexsoil", which is a 4 direction map each descending into a different layer of hell. It can be placed anywhere in the last chapter, (perhaps between maps 22-23).

It's inspired visually by "The Spirit World" firstly due to it's depiction of Demonic Hell, a surrounded start inspired by Circle of Death/Tricks and Traps and a watertrail to each sector (Bloodfalls), though that map wasn't created by any of the big three.

I've just started the second Hell layer and hopefully this should be done by the end of the week for testing.

Here's a teaser

http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/2167/screenshotdoom201209042.png

It's pretty hard since we're use to making maps with Doom Builder and such rather than how they use to do it, so we can only mimic them. I won't post anymore till the map is done, but despite being incomplete, I can hear suggestions from this one screenshot.

(how do you lot take your screenshots? (You know... without spectator mode))

Last edited by Blackgaze on 09-04-12 at 20:55

Old Post 09-04-12 20:49 #
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Blackgaze
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Hi, I managed to finish my map.

It's up for testing and I might change things due to minor bugs and general DOOM II connections. I went a bit overboard with this map and it is quite a few minutes longer than other maps, but I love hear your review. There is a secret in every hell layer in this map, and I mean EVERY layer, try and find them all (and don't cheat!)
Some parts I really like, others I'm not sure if it's in the spirit of DOOM II, but we see...
... enjoy the end...

... In Hexsoil.

http://www.mediafire.com/?yn2laulyh7afjus
(wad download)

Here are some new screenshots, still in spectator mode, but I updated the graphics to make it look nicer. The map is darker if you use classic DOOM II settings (which looks for certain areas), but I won't hold it against you if you have everything modern.

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/1223/screenshotdoom201209082.png
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/1223/screenshotdoom201209082.png
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1223/screenshotdoom201209082.png
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1223/screenshotdoom201209082.png
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/1223/screenshotdoom201209082.png
http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/1223/screenshotdoom201209082.png
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/1223/screenshotdoom201209082.png

st.alfonzo must I send these details to the website to enter the map for voting? I might need a few reviews/playtestings before I can say its officially done.

*edit, nevermind, done. Now let's play the waiting and hearing game.

Last edited by Blackgaze on 09-09-12 at 00:07

Old Post 09-08-12 22:24 #
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Scypek2
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I decided to make a map for this.

MAP31 - secret of the secret
(Because it's a secret level with a way to super secret level and because it's a secret level recreating a level from "the dark secret" episode from Wolf)

It consists of recreation of the horrible E4L10...
http://imageshack.us/a/img5/6232/chocolatedoom2012092913.png

And theme that is quite different from the original level.
http://imageshack.us/a/img685/6232/chocolatedoom2012092913.png

Old Post 09-30-12 10:48 #
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Hellbent
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@blackgaze and everyone: one thing the id maps seemed to consistently do (in both iwads) was to not have it feel obvious all the steps you are going through to get to the keys. Usually you walk up to a key and get it--rather than jump through all these hoops to reveal the key, which is basically how your map is up to the blue key. You could have the blue key where the backpack is and that would feel much more like an id way to drop a key. You still have to go do everything else since you have to open the blue door, but that would feel less contrived. I've notice this more and more--pwads tend to be much more contrived in the progress of the map compared to id maps that don't require you to jump through all these hoops and explore every part of the map to complete it. There's more of a natural chaos and sense of exploration to a doom 2 map than most custom maps tend to allow for. Also, there's no reason to reinterpret or reimagine areas from the original map28.. you should envision your spirit world how you want it, not a reexpression of existing areas in map28 (in-my-no-so-humble-opinion).

Old Post 09-30-12 19:01 #
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Blackgaze
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Hellbent said:
@blackgaze and everyone: one thing the id maps seemed to consistently do (in both iwads) was to not have it feel obvious all the steps you are going through to get to the keys. Usually you walk up to a key and get it--rather than jump through all these hoops to reveal the key, which is basically how your map is up to the blue key. You could have the blue key where the backpack is and that would feel much more like an id way to drop a key. You still have to go do everything else since you have to open the blue door, but that would feel less contrived. I've notice this more and more--pwads tend to be much more contrived in the progress of the map compared to id maps that don't require you to jump through all these hoops and explore every part of the map to complete it. There's more of a natural chaos and sense of exploration to a doom 2 map than most custom maps tend to allow for. Also, there's no reason to reinterpret or reimagine areas from the original map28.. you should envision your spirit world how you want it, not a reexpression of existing areas in map28 (in-my-no-so-humble-opinion).


I never noticed it that way, I knew some level parts had to be redesigned (like the arachnotron placements), but it never occurred that none of the maps did it like this and it was just my thoughts on the map, not the originals. One of my testers was a rusher and made a few points in parts that couldn't be rushed easily through due to the hoops.
Though I disagree with the ammo pack spot, it would not be clear and if you missed it (by going down) then you have to fight through the rest to return there.
But falling down the gaps, the map can treated as more linear to the others, but it was for the fact that I wanted each layer to be a mini-level in it's own rather than backtracking the map you've already visited.

Also while i'm commenting... when I completed my map, I made a fatal mistake in not using a template of one of the original 32 maps and reshuffling the map. Although my map was inspired by styles and techniques of the originals it did not represent one of the original maps (not even The Spirit World) and felt something new, like I didn't stick to ONLY the same textures and level design used in that map compared to everyone else, and it felt out of place. Hellbent is right in my own vision (which I thought I did), but when every other map submitted is closer to the map source than mine, it (to me) doesn't feel right.
So for this reason, I would accept disqualification if it comes to.

I'm still proud of it... just the wrong entry. If anyone would still like to test it, I would not recommend Ultra Violence due to the lack of ammo/too many monsters i've tweaked.

Old Post 10-01-12 01:09 #
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purist
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I've made a bit of an overhaul to Radar Base and made more minor tweaks to Starport Anomaly and have updated the submissions on the D2TWID homepage if anyone is interested in taking a look.

I'm hoping that these are the final versions of the levels now. Since the deadline has been suspended I might even get around to a third map after my other community project commitments are completed.

Old Post 10-01-12 16:35 #
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Hellbent
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MAP23 of Doom 2:

just played through it. Cool map. I think this map shows an excellent example of how id Software (read: Sandy Petersen) used keys in a creative, fun and non-stale way. Key getting isn't just about find key, find door, find next key, find next door. This sort of key placement and use should really try to be avoided, and mappers should try to avoid feeling like this is the only way to do keys, because it's not. Go play Map23 and see for yourself how the key/door routine is made fresh and interesting. Someone go play the map and post an explanation of how the key and respective door are used in a creative way and fun way.

Also interesting of note in the map: how many doors are in this map?

Old Post 10-18-12 02:34 #
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Blackgaze
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Hellbent said:
MAP23 of Doom 2:

just played through it. Cool map. I think this map shows an excellent example of how id Software (read: Sandy Petersen) used keys in a creative, fun and non-stale way. Key getting isn't just about find key, find door, find next key, find next door. This sort of key placement and use should really try to be avoided, and mappers should try to avoid feeling like this is the only way to do keys, because it's not. Go play Map23 and see for yourself how the key/door routine is made fresh and interesting. Someone go play the map and post an explanation of how the key and respective door are used in a creative way and fun way.

Also interesting of note in the map: how many doors are in this map?



Wait, isn't Map 23 Barrels o' Fun? There's only one key there.
Or am I confusing this with someone else's map 23. You've already reviewed mine, so whos is it?

Old Post 10-18-12 10:41 #
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Hellbent
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Yes, I am talking about Barrel's of Fun. Petersen always tried to put in keys in a fun and creative way. If they weren't done in a way that felt like they had real believable purpose, then he didn't put in key doors. A map that uses all the keys but doesn't feel like a key to key hunt is map 19 The Citadel. Still waiting people's specific analysis if map23 key use.

Old Post 10-18-12 15:26 #
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Alfonzo
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Well, I can't say I feel too grabbed for attention by map23's key usage in particular, but I can certainly see where you're coming from. Indeed, many of Sandy's maps don't really try and push the idea of the key objective into its own, cordoned off area of gameplay mechanics to be optionally affixed wherever it's needed. Instead, he subjects them to the same experimental treatment that befalls everything else within his maps -- from textures to layouts to monsters and all...:

I think that map18's key implementation is far more wacky and indicative of the sandy mentality. The yellow key is crammed in the corner of the courtyard, like an old, worn football under the hedgerow in the garden, and the blue key thinks it's a health bonus, placed intriguingly among the rest of the blue bottles in a cacodemon outhouse.

Understanding Sandy isn't quite as difficult as some people make out, I think, and bringing to light this interesting observation of his key usage only furthers what we already know about his compulsive affair with laboratory-grade map design. Come the end the year, when things pick up again, we'll be able to explore some more interesting (and previously unasserted) facets of his approach through the medium of map overflow!

Old Post 10-18-12 16:10 #
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EvilNed01
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Love this project! Hadn't heard of this or the previous one until now, but I'm gonna give the original one a go as soon as I can.

Old Post 10-28-12 16:22 #
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DecemberMan
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Is this project still alive? I've been away a while.

Old Post 01-17-13 23:44 #
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Alfonzo
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Sure is! There are some key contributors finishing up with other commitments before returning here, and the impression I've gathered is that projects of this type are best tackled with an organised and collective interest... so there will be a mass resurgence of maps and information not to far into the future.

Of course, if you're still wanting to contribute then go ahead and do so! There are no map slots, as submissions will be selected based on their "idiocy" and working as part of the total product. Just as with the first project.

Old Post 01-18-13 01:02 #
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Wraith777
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Decided to update my map - Lift Service Beta 2
http://d2twid.herokuapp.com/submissions/33

Now working on another map, this time it's city themed.

Old Post 01-18-13 08:50 #
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DecemberMan
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st.alfonzo said:
Sure is! There are some key contributors finishing up with other commitments before returning here, and the impression I've gathered is that projects of this type are best tackled with an organised and collective interest... so there will be a mass resurgence of maps and information not to far into the future.

Of course, if you're still wanting to contribute then go ahead and do so! There are no map slots, as submissions will be selected based on their "idiocy" and working as part of the total product. Just as with the first project.



Good to hear :) I loved the first map pack. Can't wait for this one!

Old Post 01-20-13 23:42 #
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Xfing
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Ah, finally they activated my account. Hi there, everyone!

I'm an avid fan of the classic Doom games, and lately immersed myself in the wonderful world of user made pwads. But to be quite honest, not much can measure up to the adventurous feel of the original games. DTWID did more for me than all those wads like the HR or CC series.

Therefore I'm all with you when it comes to this project and wish that it turns out just as good as DTWiD did. Sadly, I can't contribute as I have zero experience in Doom mapping, but I'll wait patiently and cheer for you guys. Waiting for D2TWiD will be just like waiting for D2 to come out was in the first place (can't really tell, I was like 3 years old back then, haha).

Once again props to you guys and good luck!

Old Post 01-27-13 06:08 #
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Obsidian
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Quick question: do you guys still need maps, and if so which ones? Just curious. :)

Old Post 01-27-13 06:19 #
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Xfing
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Obsidian said:
Quick question: do you guys still need maps, and if so which ones? Just curious. :)


Well, they definitely do. There are only over 30 maps in, while there were around 100 sent for the previous project. There's still plenty of room for new maps for this one.

Old Post 01-27-13 11:36 #
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Alfonzo
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IMMENSILUS UPDATICUS:

D2TWiD is rolling again! Within the last week we've seen an additional 8 maps submitted for the project in the styles of Romero and Mcgee, many of such an impressive quality and authenticity that the roster is threatening to fill up faster than you or I can blink. With such a sudden onset of enthusiasm -- and with absolutely no sign of it letting up any time soon -- I implore all contributors to return to their stations and begin churning out maps like there's no tomorrow. A release within the next few months is looking increasingly likely.

Now, given the length of time since last we put our heads down, as well as the progress that has been made in that period, it's probably a good idea to throw together a short list of areas of the game which could benefit from more attention.

What maps are we lacking?
  • Sandy Maps
    While there have been a considerable number of sandy submissions for the project, there have also been many submissions in the style of Romero and Mcgee, and the number of maps in the style of the former should far outweigh those in the latter. A high quality Petersen map will probably increase the map's chances of inclusion, not to mention make for a better overall product. If you're thinking of making a map in the Sandy style, maps of the E2 "sandbox" variety, ala map13 and 16, are sorely lacking. We are also at a loss for conceptually driven/gimmicky maps such as map07, 08 and map23.

  • E2 and E3 McGee Maps
    Study map14 and map22 if you're wanting to make an urban/hellish McGee map, but also investigate the differences and similarities between these maps and his E1 efforts.

  • Map01's
    We don't have very many of these at all, which is surprising considering the importance of the slot. It's the plinth of greatness. The first impression. The de facto deathmatch! It's basically Doom 2's postcard map and yet we're running dry. Focusing on producing a map that is friendly to new players and introduces certain Doom mechanics or gameplay features is a good focus to have when tackling a map for this slot. Incidentally, that's a good focus to have in any case for this project, though particularly for the earlier numbers.

  • map07's
    The special tags native to map07 should be an integral mechanic in the functioning of the map (such as is the case in Dead Simple) in or order to make sense of their being introduced for the game.

  • map30's
    We need them!

This list is mainly to assist in pointing out specific map slots or types that might allow you a greater chance of inclusion. you can still make maps for any slot and of in any mapper's style.

EDIT: Also, while I've got your attention, I should probably remind you of/alert you to the project's many keen contributors who continue to hang out on IRC (irc.oftc.net #doomtwid). Be sure to drop by if you want some intricate map analysis or wish to discuss other matters at length, as there's pretty much always someone there.

Now get mapping. Don't let the terrible time-vile be your undoing!

Last edited by Alfonzo on 01-28-13 at 10:42

Old Post 01-28-13 10:14 #
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purist
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st.alfonzo said:
IMMENSILUS UPDATICUS:

D2TWiD is rolling again! Within the last week we've seen an additional 8 maps submitted for the project in the styles of Romero and Mcgee, many of such an impressive quality and authenticity that the roster is threatening to fill up faster than you or I can blink.



This is great news but where are these maps? They don't seem to be on the D2TWID website.

I've been rolling around and idea in my head for a Petersen style actual-place-but-abstract map. It's aiming for an early E2 slot and will be called the The Underpass. I suppose I ought to get busy with it.

Old Post 01-28-13 11:27 #
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Alfonzo
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purist said:
This is great news but where are these maps? They don't seem to be on the D2TWID website.
Yeah, the maps aren't up on the site yet, although they've been bumped around on IRC for a bit. I'll leave it to their respective authors to post them up in here, as I imagine they'd like to provide comments alongside them.

Also yes, you should make that map! I can guarantee healthy ammounts of feedback and coverage at this stage.

Old Post 01-28-13 11:36 #
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Xfing
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I applaud your consistency and doggedness, guys. Just the right approach when making a community project!

Old Post 01-29-13 08:06 #
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_bruce_
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Great to see this project's still going!

St. Alfonzo you've made some great observations especially regarding Sandy's key placements... it greatly contributed to Doom II's outworldly anarchic feel that's hard to describe.

Old Post 01-29-13 16:14 #
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Alfonzo
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_bruce_ said:
St. Alfonzo you've made some great observations especially regarding Sandy's key placements... it greatly contributed to Doom II's outworldly anarchic feel that's hard to describe.
Thanks! Sandy's design can be pretty difficult to pin down, I think, though part of me reckons that it's better not to delve too deeply into the particularities of his style in order to help in maintain authenticity... or perhaps a better way of putting it would be to say that it's worth keeping only a few defining traits of his style in mind when mapping so as to maintain that experimental approach, and not get so hung up on the technicalities that they begin to govern the map.

He is, in many ways, both the most difficult and the simplest designer to understand.

Old Post 01-29-13 23:49 #
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Wraith777
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st.alfonzo said:
If you're thinking of making a map in the Sandy style, maps of the E2 "sandbox" variety, ala map13 and 16, are sorely lacking.


Well, I hope this will help it:
http://plasmon.rghost.ru/43242247/image.png

It's for comparison, all maps are in same scale.

Can't show anything now except this rough plan, no 3d model/textures/things at the monent..

Old Post 01-30-13 00:28 #
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