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Touchdown
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The yellow door in map09 is impossible to open because its line direction (or however you call it) is on the wrong side. Unless there's some kind of trick to open them.

EDIT: Nevermind. Noticed there's a newer version or something.

Last edited by Touchdown on 05-19-13 at 12:47

Old Post 05-19-13 12:31 #
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[WH]-Wilou84
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Cool, it's nice to see a public beta release for this. :)

I've just reached the end of map 07, pistol-starting each map. So far it's been a great playing experience. Props to the D2TWiD team for capturing Doom II's themes in a faithful manner !
On their own, each map was pretty cool ( my favorite being "The Boiler" ).

However, on the gameplay side, I felt the beginning of the mapset was very different from Doom II.
In Doom The Way id Did, weapons and enemies were introduced with basically the same order as in Doom, and this rule was basically a must-have for a project called "The Way id Did". Here, the order in which the new Doom II elements are introduced varies a lot compared to Doom II.

In Doom II, you're given the Super Shotgun in a side area in map 02, and at this point this weapon is clearly overpowered until you reach maps 04 / 05.
In D2TWiD, the Super Shotgun isn't included until map 04, in which you get it in the middle of a battle against a bunch of monsters ( including no less than 2 Revenants, as well as a group of Demons ).
This makes for quite a difference in gameplay, as instead of giving the SSG for free in an early map, you only give it when it becomes necessary, against a "heavy" opposition ( by Doom II's standards ).
Before said trap, you deal with quite a few Chaingunners and the occasional Revenant with Doom's arsenal only.

Now of course you aren't forced to include the new gameplay elements in the exact same way as it was in Doom II - and I really appreciate this difference TBH, as I felt the SSG was given too early in Doom II and I really like fighting Doom II monsters with Doom weapons. But maybe it's too much of a departure from the goal of this project. I'd call it "Doom II With A Better Balance" rather than "Doom II The Way id Did" so far.

That, or maybe I completely missed an early SSG. :)

Old Post 05-19-13 13:08 #
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LingtheDoomGuy
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I just downloaded it and it looks awesome! However, Maps31 and 32 are unchanged for some reason?

I thought the secret levels were gonna b different?

Last edited by LingtheDoomGuy on 05-19-13 at 13:24

Old Post 05-19-13 13:18 #
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Alfonzo
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[WH]-Wilou84 said:
In D2TWiD, the Super Shotgun isn't included until map 04, in which you get it in the middle of a battle against a bunch of monsters ( including no less than 2 Revenants, as well as a group of Demons ).
This makes for quite a difference in gameplay, as instead of giving the SSG for free in an early map, you only give it when it becomes necessary, against a "heavy" opposition ( by Doom II's standards ).
Before said trap, you deal with quite a few Chaingunners and the occasional Revenant with Doom's arsenal only.

That's actually a good point, and not one that I'd personally thought of. Player power vs. monster opposition is something that we gave a lot of attention to when concerned with the way level designers approach their maps (Sandy likes to inundate the player with countless provisions to counterbalance his often extreme gameplay setups, for instance), but it's true what you say here -- the first batch of levels in Doom 2 do kind of play catch-up with the player, who's totting around with an SSG and 100+ health and armor until the big opposition start to make things wobble a bit. Here it almost feels the otherway around, with the monsters showing up to the party a good 2 maps ahead of schedule and the player being made to fish around in response.

Certainly something to keep in mind.


LingtheDoomGuy said:
I just downloaded it and it looks awesome! However, Maps31 and 32 are unchanged for some reason?

The secret maps are still being tweaked by Xaser and co., who are keeping the curtains drawn until they're satisfied that the maps are the most they can be. Their completion, along with a whole host of other features, will herald the arrival of the second beta.

Old Post 05-19-13 13:24 #
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Xfing
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What I can say so far, having played 9 levels:

First five levels weren't particularly memorable after the first playthrough, but this may definitely change upon subsequent playthroughs. Their aesthetics are pretty alright, but Doom 2 textures are comparatively bland and uninteresting compared to the D1 ones, so guess it couldn't be helped. The levels are bleak and sleepy, which is kinda appropriate for the sky texture utilized (reminding me of The Waste Tunnels from D2 more than anything else).

Level 6 on the other hand, aesthetically feels more in tune with the 3rd sky than the first. It's more similar to stuff like The Living End than anything else. I loved the spike in difficulty, though.

I absolutely loved level 7. The DTWID team never ceases to amaze me when it comes to making amazing boss arenas. All those from DTWiD were fantastic, and this one is a great throwback. Finally made me feel the connection of D2TWiD to DTWiD, which was rather underpronounced until this level. Level 8, on the other hand, seems like one big reference to DTWiD, which is great. Level 9 is something of an amalgamation of D2 level 8 and 9, pulling off "Tricks and Traps" without ripping it off.

Overall, it wasn't until level 7 that I started picking up this great DTWiD vibe - just like Doom, but even more enjoyable and rewarding to play, also highly replayable.

As for technical issues I've noticed - in level 8 the Megasphere secret registers too late, you actually have to enter the T-shaped room further to get the secret to flash. I think it should flash when you grab the megasphere.

Old Post 05-19-13 13:36 #
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cannonball
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Played consecutively up to map05, I have to admit the first two levels were ok, I struggled a little on map03 for health which is fine, the difficulty of course increased due to having some chaingunners stationed. Perhaps the ssg could have been introduced earlier.
Map05, died when Pavera obviously had monster withdrawal symptoms and bamm 4 revenants in a tight space. Yeah I had bad luck where I killed one of them only for 3 fireballs to pass through his corpse and 100/100 to dead instantly :P

Old Post 05-19-13 14:16 #
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Fernito
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OK, so far I've played through the first 3 maps.

Map01: no observations.

Map02: the slime pit near the red key isn't tagged as damaging sector. Also, this lift is tagged as lower unpegged, which makes it look weird when it comes down.

Map03: the map is a bit "overdetailed" IMHO; many of the architectural choices make it not look like a map by id. Don't get me wrong, the map is terrific, and it does look old-school, but it just doesn't look very id-like to me. Just my humble opinion.


PS: as Xfing mentioned, it would be useful to have a PM from st.alfonzo so we can know specifically what to look for when testing :)

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Old Post 05-19-13 14:22 #
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C30N9
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I thought MAP01 was ok. I didn't like it too much. It had big halls, and sometimes empty. I didn't catch Peterson's style in this map. However, MAP02 does a great job in this case. I can see that lots of McGee's things were put in, and the gameplay flow runs nearly the same as McGee's map, but I think it needs a bit more darkness.

If I was told that MAP03 was done by McGee, I would believe them. This a Doom II map. I can see how parts connect to each other after progressing through the map. But aren't Cacodemons early for this slot?

Old Post 05-19-13 14:29 #
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Larzuk
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I'll download this when I get home tomorrow. Like a couple others have said, if would be nice to get that pm.

Old Post 05-19-13 14:38 #
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Alfonzo
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Fernito said:
PS: as Xfing mentioned, it would be useful to have a PM from st.alfonzo so we can know specifically what to look for when testing :)
Once we gather up some feedback and count over a few things I'll send out a list to work off. It'll probably require that you replay the maps a few times though, so I hope you've got staying power. Certainly don't hold back on playing it through in the mean time!

C30N9 said:
But aren't Cacodemons early for this slot?
Only if you feel they're too early for the progression established, I think. To my mind it's entirely plausible that the folks at id might have decided to introduce the monsters and weapons in this way, which is why we went down that route.

Last edited by Alfonzo on 05-19-13 at 14:48

Old Post 05-19-13 14:39 #
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Melon
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MAP02: I felt that the map ended suddenly but thinking back to Doom 2 I guess Underhalls didn't have a clearly defined exit room either. Actually thinking back to Underhalls has made me realise that this level is reminiscent of Underhalls in a few ways, particularly the water floor. The slime pit didn't deal any damage, is it supposed to? All in all a good level. I liked it.

MAP03: Throughout this map I was thinking "Where's the Super Shotgun?" Plinking away at this many enemies, and taking on cacodemons with the basic shotgun isn't what I remember doing a lot in Doom 2. The map looked like Doom 2 map, and had a Doom 2 layout, but it played more like a Shores of Hell map that has some chaingunners in it. Or maybe my memory is playing tricks on me. I think throwing in the Super Shotgun early on would fix this. While Doom 2 gave the SSG on map 2, I didn't have this feeling on the previous map. I can't really explain it. Maybe this map is more monster dense and so it felt like I was lacking that overpowered OOMPH? Aside from that this was a cool level. The red key being behind the blue door all by itself made me laugh.

MAP04: Hmmm no I didn't like this at all, sorry. At the start I kept getting surrounded by imps, it didn't feel right. The sniping revenant, he didn't feel right either. The revenants in the monster swarm before getting the SSG, nonono it's just all wrong. It's all wrong. Sorry. The switches on the little raised sectors reminiscent of E2M1. The berserk pack in the dark damaging floor rooms behind all the spectres. Almost nothing about this level reminded me of Doom 2. It felt more like a series of PWAD dick moves. Or maybe the opening imp swarm biased me to see things in a harsh light. I know that The Crusher had a revenant in it but it was by itself in an area with tons of pillars. It was the set piece of the fight. Their usage in this map doesn't feel right to me.

DEMOS

By the way, I've not actually played through Doom 2 in a while so those in the project who have studied the levels more carefully might disagree with my views entirely. Memory has a funny way of making the past feel different to how it really was. Feel free to call out any of my comments if they're totally wrong, I'm happy to be told if I'm barking up the wrong tree.

Old Post 05-19-13 15:07 #
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Du Mhan Yhu
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I don't know if it's been covered, but map02 has 2 exits.

http://i.imgur.com/iClCdhI.png


Edit: or is it intentional?

Old Post 05-19-13 15:46 #
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40oz
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haha probably a BFG Edition homage.

Old Post 05-19-13 16:58 #
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Memfis
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Then map08 has a homage to all "vanilla" maps tested in ZDoom I guess (zero-tagged lift).

Old Post 05-19-13 17:00 #
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cannonball
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@Melon, about map04 you are absolutely right. I didn't really thin about that. There is nothing wrong with this map from a technical stand point it's a good map with better pacing but Melon is right, this does not feel like a doom 2 IWad map. That trap with the ssg would not be present even if it's was a doom 2 map. Same going for the revenant trap on map05.
I will play more of this but I do get the feeling that modern mapping will be leaking through this map set from time to time. Is it accidental, I don't know, does it hurt or benefit, open to discussion.
I've not been keeping up with this project in a reading every post sense so it would be intriguing to hear some of the mappers thoughts when it came to designing their maps and whether they tried to mix the IWad style with their own or whether it came out by accident.

Old Post 05-19-13 17:23 #
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Pavera
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cannonball said:
Map05, died when Pavera obviously had monster withdrawal symptoms and bamm 4 revenants in a tight space. Yeah I had bad luck where I killed one of them only for 3 fireballs to pass through his corpse and 100/100 to dead instantly :P


Yes! This is already a known issue to me. :X Too many revenants. I think there's like 6 revenants total on the map, and I planned to reduce that total to like 2.

Old Post 05-19-13 17:36 #
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esselfortium
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FWIW, map04 is slated for some stylistic revamp to bring it more accurately in line with McGee's style. The team members on IRC liked the overall design enough as-is to let Alfonzo include it now and fix it up for the next beta.

Old Post 05-19-13 17:59 #
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Feniks
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Pavera said:


Yes! This is already a known issue to me. :X Too many revenants. I think there's like 6 revenants total on the map, and I planned to reduce that total to like 2.

Why? The Crusher introduced the revenant, and there were already four of them on that map. D2TWID might be a bit harder than Doom 2, why not? I don't think you should take those revenants out, the map is more fun as it is.

Old Post 05-19-13 18:08 #
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Fernito
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Map06: the imp from this screenshot is facing backwards when the door opens.

Map07: WOW, that was difficult!

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Old Post 05-19-13 18:12 #
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Tarnsman
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It's not just the boiler that needs revenant reduction, the whole mapset does. I've been harping on people about it for a while but.

Revenant: UV Total: 176 (Most on 1 Map: 22) Doom 2 UV Total: 90

Doom 2 rarely used more than 4 revenants on a map and while there were a few maps that just had a crap ton of them like Monster Condo having 21 (which justifies our 22) and Spirit World having 17, most levels used very few revenants. Where as D2TWID has an average of about 8 on each map.


cannonball said:
That trap with the ssg would not be present even if it's was a doom 2 map.


Yes it would, there are all sorts of dick move horde traps all over Doom 2. In SANDY maps, which is the key. But yes Map 4 is probably one of the least id and I've been bitching at Alfonzo to fix it since I first played it over a year ago.

Old Post 05-19-13 18:25 #
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Du Mhan Yhu
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Thing 83 (I think)

In Map13.

http://i.imgur.com/x29npoo.png

Old Post 05-19-13 18:50 #
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skillsaw
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Neat. I'm going to try streaming through some of this if anyone is interested. I'll inevitably die a lot.

http://www.twitch.tv/skillsaw_/

Old Post 05-19-13 18:55 #
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Melon
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P.S. Many comments in this post were written before reading any of the posts after my previous one. I kept a text file open to write comments immediately after playing the map.

MAP05: Goodness gracious this map is difficult. Holy shitballs. Now I don't want to say that as if I think it's a bad thing, some IWAD maps kicked my ass from pistol start too (*cough*The Pit*cough*), but it doesn't feel difficult in quite the same way. I get definite The Crusher vibes from the map which is good, I could actually see this being an IWAD map but two things let it down, the oddly difficult start and the revenants. I don't want to harp on about revenants again like I did for MAP04 (and since then I've decided that the sniping revenant in MAP04 actually is OK, I've remembered that The Crusher had "sniping" revs in that staircase room :p) but in this map the way the two revenant traps swarm you with revs just doesn't feel authentic. My impression from the IWAD was that id treated them like the outrageous death machines they are and used them pretty sparingly. By the way I didn't finish this map, as you'll see in the demo I got the red key and died in the rev fight and thought "fuck it I've pretty much seen it all anyway". That demo is a continual death-fest all the way through, you have been warned. I picked up rockets in this map and realised that it's about time we had a rocket launcher. I assume there's one hiding in this map somewhere.

MAP06: This map is very authentic in its Romero style, I love it. However it's another map that I think is too difficult. It needs more health for sure. I'm expecting to die in these playthroughs but I don't remember having this much trouble this early on in the IWAD. The demo for this map is split into two as I had a break to eat, but again I do not finish. Actually this time I'm pretty sure I didn't even get halfway through the map before giving up. Much harder than MAP05 but less frustrating, I don't feel the need to rant about it despite non-stop death. Another thing I want to congratulate is the revenant usage, as I think this map gets it right. So yeah, I like it, but some more health pickups please, especially in the big open area past the first teleporter. I look forward to beating this map at some point in the future.

MAP07: At first I was thinking "oh god another MAP07 dead simple clone that every Doom 2 wad ever has" but I really enjoyed this one. I liked the use of the spider mastermind too, and the presence of an invulnerability sphere to trivialise the whole thing. Perfect. By the way, there should probably be some mandatory secret sector like the IWAD MAP07 had to prevent the original exe from returning 0% secrets.

DEMOS

Now that "Episode 1" is done I wanted to say that despite some bitchiness I am really enjoying this and eagerly look forward to playing some more. Is this wad aiming to be more difficult than the IWAD or trying to achieve the same level of difficulty? Because at the moment I would say that from MAP04 on it's suddenly skyrocketed in difficulty and it wasn't until MAP23 onwards that the IWAD started giving me this sort of trouble. If you want a more modern difficulty curve, then let me know and I'll come back to play on HMP when you implement difficulty settings for all of the maps.

Old Post 05-19-13 18:57 #
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Tarnsman
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Melon said:
Another thing I want to congratulate is the revenant usage, as I think this map gets it right


Because I did the thing placement :P

Old Post 05-19-13 19:03 #
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Shadow Hog
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Incidentally, I noticed that in MAP04, the shootable switch high up near the ceiling in the last room can be shot from behind, by just shooting the wall behind the red key.

At least, in GZDoom. Dunno if you can do that in Vanilla too.

Old Post 05-19-13 20:09 #
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[WH]-Wilou84
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I've carried on my playthrough up to the beginning of the last episode, and I must say that this wad is fantastic. Theme-wise, the maps actually felt pretty ( despite the intended texture misalignments ), and featured a nice variety of themes. Layouts were well-thought, with a lot of interconnected areas, height differencies and plenty of secrets to find.
The introduction of the Arch-Vile was excellent, and totally unexpected. :)

I liked all the maps so far, each of them had qualities and each of them featured key aspects of Doom II.
Maps 05, 11, 17 and 20 are probably the ones I liked the most so far, but yeah there wasn't any "bad" map, each of them was enjoyable to play. That's very nice :)
Map 07 was particularly innovative, I was expecting a Dead Simple clone but it was way better than that. Sadly the Mastermind is a bit useless here as it gets slaughtered by its minions, but I guess that may be a tribute to the Cyber / Baron room in "Tricks and Traps"... :)
Map 09 was great as well. I'm usually not a fan of gimmick maps, but I can see that a lot of cool ideas have been put in there. It evokes "Tricks and Traps" without directly copying it, which is enjoyable.
The city maps were awesome as well.

I'm afraid the wad might be a bit too different from Doom II on some aspects though ( on the gameplay side mostly, but also on some of the texturing ), unlike DTWiD which was much closer to its source.
As pointed out earlier, the wad is harder than Doom II ( which isn't a bad thing in 2013 ), but the monster usage is different ( more Revenants, less boss monsters ). It also has a distinct way of introducing some of Doom II's key elements ( I'm referring to my previous post about the SSG here - Mancubus, Arachnotrons and Arch-Viles are nicely introduced ).
Theme-wise, Doom II lacked the hellish texturing you see in the third episode of Doom. GSTONE and its variants weren't used much, bar a few places ( e.g. map 18 ( a few areas ) and map 29 ). D2TWiD map 18 relies much more on GSTONE, it almost feels like a Thy Flesh Consumed map.

I haven't seen any "Mastermind vs Cyberdemon" moment so far... But I won't blame you for that. :p
Also, props for making a map 21 that doesn't suck. Now this is clearly not Doom II. :>

I haven't noticed bugs, aside from this one, which has probably already been reported : in map 22, there's a teleporter which doesn't work at all ( a line action should be added to linedef 326 ). Also, in map 22 still, should sector 25 have a damaging floor effect ?


Tarnsman said:
Yes it would, there are all sorts of dick move horde traps all over Doom 2. In SANDY maps, which is the key.

There are dick moves indeed ( such as the Rocket Launcher in map 09 for example ), but this particular trap in D2TWiD map 04 clearly didn't feel "Doom II". You'd see that in Scythe or Requiem, but not in Doom II.
Same goes for the "Invulnerability + BFG9000 + horde of monsters" battle for the Yellow skullkey in map 21, it was cool but it doesn't belong to Doom II.

I can't wait to see the remaining maps. :)
Once again, great job guys, D2TWiD is a fantastic piece of work. It feels like the Doom II I've always wanted to see ( I was much disappointed by the original Doom II TBH ).

Old Post 05-19-13 20:39 #
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Tarnsman
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Well the thing is, with Doom there was a consistent episodic theme where as Doom 2 levels were more experimental.

Old Post 05-19-13 20:49 #
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esselfortium
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[WH]-Wilou84 said:
Once again, great job guys, D2TWiD is a fantastic piece of work. It feels like the Doom II I've always wanted to see ( I was much disappointed by the original Doom II TBH ).

We failed! Abort mission D:

Old Post 05-19-13 20:49 #
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Du Mhan Yhu
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http://i.imgur.com/CC82mLB.png

Intentional?

Old Post 05-19-13 21:55 #
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Melon
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You know you've got a good wad when I can't put it down.

MAP08: Yup, this map is pretty much perfect. I love it. Awesome. Except for the untagged lift, but someone else has mentioned that. Oh, and the name, but that's being changed. The slime maze was a very special brand of brilliant terrible.

MAP09: Wow, what a complete pain in the arse. Full marks for authenticity, I think this map deserves to be in this wad, but oh my god this map drove me up the wall (in that one room, it literally drove me up the wall. Heh, get it? With the rising floors? Oh never mind). It felt like a Tricks and Traps/The Pit combo and everything that entails. Very happy I could skip the revenant rocket room and pain elemental punch out. Trust me, I give this map the full seal of approval when I say this: "Ugh". In hindsight, I can't believe I saw this map through to the end.

MAP10: Another map I've decided not to finish "on camera" as I died near the end but this was another great level, along the same lines as MAP08. This is great, because the IWAD's MAP10 is one of my favourite maps so not one but two of these maps to play makes me happy.

Levels 8-10 in the IWAD are what I call the "bizarre series" of maps and I'm really glad that the maps that occupy these slots in this wad nail the feeling so perfectly. After playing the MAP03-06 range I was a bit worried that this project might have strayed away from authenticity a bit too much in gameplay but these 3 maps have restored my faith in this project as they are pretty much perfect. Top class.

Not gonna lie though, all three of those maps were absolutely gruelling to play. I'm exhausted.

DEMOS

Old Post 05-19-13 22:17 #
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