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Doohnibor
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Advanced to map 10 and the wad is still extremely fun to play!

2 exceptions:
End of map 05 - the way how you have to get the yellow key. I didn't like it at all.
It's kinda obvious - but at the same time I thought ... this can't be it. I don't remember anything like that being in Doom2.

All of map 09 - The map itself was completely sub par compared to the others. Ontop of that.... those Bridge/platform puzzles were horrible. After messing it up 8 times in a row I just jumped out of frustration.

Old Post 05-23-13 19:56 #
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schwerpunk
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EDIT: I probably just missed a previous discussion of my upcoming question, but is there any thought being given to the idea of swapping in custom title and interpics, etc? Something very subtle and id-like, I'd imagine.

Old Post 05-23-13 20:03 #
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Tarnsman
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We originally did have a custom title pic but felt it looked too cartoony and not id for the project.

Old Post 05-23-13 20:09 #
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sgtcrispy
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Back to the matter at hand folks!

Map12: While, yes, the brown sludge is damaging in D2 I think that given the large amount of it in this map an exception could be made.
Nice map.

Map13: Good map, but not quite fitting the theme of the original.

Map14: While more compact than The Inmost Dens, I am really liking this one. While I do miss the openness, I dare say that I might actually like this one better then the original. Dun dun DUUUH!!

Map15: Theme wise, this should have been map13. Why the music change? d_runnin isn't that bad. It does get a tad long, but I'll chalk that up to being a new map and not knowing it very well. Also 15 was never this hectic. This one verges on slaughter map territory. Note: The switch to lower the left lift on the Computer Map island is redundant, since you can just skooch around the torch and reach it that way. Unless that was intentional. Otherwise, solid map.

Map16: Seems to be a decent map, but it completely misses the mark for me. Feels more like the inmost dens than the current map14. Again the map is good, no issues really, but seems like somebody's throwing poor Sandy under a bus here.

Map17: Love it, even more than the original. Don't know what else to say really. Excellent map.

Map18: Ok, I had to give this one another go. Rather than ranting and blarghing, I'll just say while I like it, I am torn about this one. :)

Map19: I love the underground/buried city block look and feel. I though it might be a wee bit to complicated but after remembering the original, maybe not. Thumbs up.

Ok I'm doom'd out for now. Back later.
Infamous eh?
"Keep on Doom'n!"

Old Post 05-23-13 20:38 #
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Tarnsman
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The music change was made because Into Sandy's City was originally composed for a Sandy City map and just got stuck in the pit. Also the maps are not supposed to be a match to the original slot, they just happened to match up a bunch because Alfonzo did the listing that way.

Old Post 05-23-13 20:40 #
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Marcaek
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We discussed shifting music around where it was needed, but it turns out map15 ended up being the only one to do so. Fits a lot better IMO

Old Post 05-23-13 20:50 #
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Tarnsman
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btw @ E2 being too dark

Doom 2 Outdoor Lighting:
Factory - 144
Downtown - 128
Inmost Dens - 144
Industrial Zone - 160
Suburbs - 144
Tenements - 192
Courtyard - 144/160
Citadel - 176
Gotcha! - 255

D2TWID Outdoor Lighting:
Shipyards - 144
Wharf - 128
Flooded Library - 144
Causeway - 128
Cul-De-Sac - 192
The Precinct - 192
The Sanctuary - 176
Bedlam - 176
Leap of Faith - NO SKY

Old Post 05-23-13 22:58 #
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franckFRAG
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I noticed an important aspect which unfortunately was not to study in d2twid IMHO. First of all, the maps of doom2 was built for the greater part with of sketches, defining every salle/every corridor with a truth identity (for example, here, there is a computer room, there a hangar, here a evelator room). It allows to imagine of those to what corresponds these rooms.

I am not sure that you understand me, but here, I have the impression that every map takes diverse elements of Doom2's maps, and mixture, without given a real logical, there is no room which possesses a clean identity.

What gives an impression to travel flat labyrinth too much complicated, with no personality, because quite rooms is alike. Maps thus loses their strength of character, while every map of Doom2 possesses a real identity!

Old Post 05-23-13 23:37 #
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Doohnibor
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Tarnsman said:
We originally did have a custom title pic but felt it looked too cartoony and not id for the project.


A tiny change wouldn't hurt? Just whipped up something real quick.

http://imgur.com/1n0nHvr
and this
http://i.imgur.com/vdBQ9qm.png

Last edited by Doohnibor on 05-25-13 at 13:59

Old Post 05-24-13 01:09 #
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40oz
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!


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franckFRAG said:
I noticed an important aspect which unfortunately was not to study in d2twid IMHO. First of all, the maps of doom2 was built for the greater part with of sketches, defining every salle/every corridor with a truth identity (for example, here, there is a computer room, there a hangar, here a evelator room). It allows to imagine of those to what corresponds these rooms.

I am not sure that you understand me, but here, I have the impression that every map takes diverse elements of Doom2's maps, and mixture, without given a real logical, there is no room which possesses a clean identity.

What gives an impression to travel flat labyrinth too much complicated, with no personality, because quite rooms is alike. Maps thus loses their strength of character, while every map of Doom2 possesses a real identity!



I understand. In my experience working in Doom 1 the way id did, I felt as though some of the people weren't getting into the same mindset as Romero and Petersen, spending too much time trying to disguise their mapping as something more primitive, instead of abandoning their knowledge of levels created by the community and pretending that Doom is their game and how they want to show it off to people who only knew about Wolfenstein 3D.

I can't say for sure if that was or was not what was happening here, especially since I haven't played all the levels yet. But I happen to recognize a lot of genuine attempts to simulate real places, landforms, buildings, and combining them with fun Doom-specific traps and obstacles in the Doom 2 IWAD. Naturally they look pretty ugly and indiscernable in this time period, but at the time and when viewed from the automap, you can see the type of setting they were trying to create.

I'm not sure I see the same thing happening in D2TWID, I think some of it has to do with many of the maps having really vague titles, such as The Compound, Reservoirs, The Garrison, The Precinct, The Sanctuary, Borderlands, Passage to Exile, The Crucible, Crushed Spirits, etc. All pretty melancholic, which seems appropriate for Doom 2, but I don't approach these maps with any expectations other than brown jagged sectors.

I'm not sure if this is a very fair thing to criticize this wad for, but when I was young, playing Doom 2 for the first time on the Doom95 launcher, you get to pick the level you want to start on from Doom95's frontend. Naturally I was attracted to levels like Industrial Zone, Downtown, and Gotcha!. It's tough to say which of the maps in D2TWID I'd even consider playing if it were what I had at that age. Cul-de-sac sounds pretty cool and I'm still pretty excited to get to that map. So does Leap of Faith, even though it reminds me of Tony Hawk Pro Skater. The rest of them don't sound very attractive though.

I haven't found most of these maps to have a very specific identity yet, but I think I need to play the levels a few more times before I can make that call.

Last edited by 40oz on 05-24-13 at 04:28

Old Post 05-24-13 04:20 #
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Tarnsman
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The Compound has a compound right across from the start. Reservoirs has not one, not two, but three Reservoir tanks. The Garrison has a gigantic garrison as the central structure. Borderlands has a more earthy building area bordering a hell lake. Crushed Spirits is about Crushers. I mean that's basically the level of which Doom 2 maps reflected what they were supposed to be.

Old Post 05-24-13 04:31 #
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40oz
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Chill, I'm just making some observations. I'm not intending to win the thread here.

Old Post 05-24-13 04:38 #
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Tarnsman
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And I'm just making counter observations bro. I'm aware that nothing can ever replicate that old school nostalgia for the IWADs but trying to define them as something they're clearly not doesn't recreate that feel. Doom 2's levels resembled what they were supposed to be in only the most vague and abstract sense most of the time. Someone like Sandy was less concerned with making something like Suburbs resemble actually suburbs in the slightest and more concerned with making a fun and memorable map.

Last edited by Tarnsman on 05-24-13 at 04:54

Old Post 05-24-13 04:39 #
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40oz
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That's not a thing. F5 much?

Old Post 05-24-13 04:41 #
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Death Egg
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Tarnsman said:
We originally did have a custom title pic but felt it looked too cartoony and not id for the project.


And the original DTWID title wasn't cartoony?

Old Post 05-24-13 05:50 #
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Marcaek
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It was, but after thinking on it and discussing a bit we decided cartoony wasn't really appropriate. The TITLEPIC we had was also IIRC unfinished but I may be wrong.

Old Post 05-24-13 06:01 #
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Xfing
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If I may have a suggestion: Replace the green stone from "The Crucible" with the gray one with green lining that Doom 2 introduced. It's much more ummm... earthly than the hellish green rock. This would probably make the level overly similar to the Catacombs, but better that than being overly similar to Thy Flesh Consumed levels.

Also, I believe no one has mentioned this so far: there's a small error in level 4's name. Instead of "Siltyards" it reads "Silyards".

Last edited by Xfing on 05-24-13 at 12:00

Old Post 05-24-13 11:49 #
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Doohnibor
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Map 11: it's possible to get the Blue key by jumping from the lift/platform nearby. I guess this is not intentional because this way the Revenants can be bypassed and the teleporter which transports you onto the blue key platform becomes obsolete

Old Post 05-24-13 12:42 #
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Xfing
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I'm doing another run, this time attempting to 3x100% in all the levels. I have done so with the first 7 levels so far. I'll list my observations:

Map 1: I like how aesthetically it's reminescent of Entryway, yet still a fresh take on the first level. Creates connectivity with Doom 1. Also, the soul sphere secret took me a good 10 minutes to figure out. Good job.

Map 2: Hmmm... This one, while a good map and a nice little slaughterfest has two issues that drew my interest. Firstly, the texuring reminds me more of early TNT than Hell on Earth. The map does look McGee in the automap alright, but when playing it, I can't help thinking of Power Control and System Control from TNT. Good thing this one's actually darker. Second thing: Underhalls was much harder and much more desperation-invoking. This level doesn't even require you to TRY on Ultra-Violence. I think a nasty Spectre trap or two could rectify this.

Map 3: Again, the architecture looks very McGee in the automap. The textures also fit the shithole water main theme quite well, even though I've never seen McGee use them in D2. But the problem with this level is like above, it's too easy. And the sad thing is, not much can really be done about it, since the monster counts are already high enough both here and in level 2. But the architecture itself simply makes the battle very Doom1-like, that is easy and predictable. Likin' the Cacos, though. They spice up the experience quite a bit.

Map 4: It finally catches up in difficulty to its D2 counterpart. I like the theme of an earthen bunker. Overall, so far the mapset pulls of quite well the concept of alternative installations of the same complex (like all DTWiD maps did). The level's also a good bit more detailed than The Focus, which is a good thing and it compensates for the monotonous texturing. The backpack secret is one of the more creative ones, bringing great memories of the one thing id designers did superbly even for today's standards - secrets.

Map 5: Speaking of secrets: another map and only 1 official secret? There was plenty more in D2! Plenty more. As for the Boiler, it plays really well and is hard enough, capably replacing The Waste Tunnels (which I have remembered as the hardest of the early levels), although it achieves this difficulty through different means. The controversial point of lava usage is quite moot to me, as it's quite obviously industrial lava, not hellish lava. And it finally breathes quite a bit of color into the game after the bleak first four levels. Not that it wouldn't look good with green nukage, which I have noticed that the level set lacks after my first playthrough. I didn't quite like the backpack placement, since it renders the finding of the backpack secret from the previous level quite unrewarding. What's the point of getting a secret backpack if you can get one much more easily in the next level? I say push the backpack one or two levels forward. Also, I don't really mind, but TOO MANY REVENANTS. This is gonna give noobs a headache.

Map 6: Well, the main concern I have about this map is the fact that it looks more like a Doom 2 third segment level, or a Plutonia or HR level than an early D2 level. It really feels out of place this early, especially with all the blood. Changing the blood to green nukage would fix this, but sadly neither green nukage nor water really fits the looks of the level. It's a purely D2 E3 level, can't really say it otherwise. The gameplay and difficulty are really cool, but much harder than The Crusher too, so totally unsuited for this part of the game. This level probably needs to be moved to a later spot in the set. It's also uncannily similar to Damned Strait! So yeah, this level doesn't fit at all. And it's a shame, since I like this level and the secrets are cool too. Move it to somewhere around map 10-11 perhaps? Swap it with The Gambit? I dunno.

Map 7: This level is complete and utter awesomeness, as I said before. There's however an issue. If you fall into the pit at X:47 to X:-48; Y: 1040 and Z: -128, you'll see that the wall there has no texture. Not to mention that there's nothing you can do to exit this pit, since the door won't open either. Enclosing a screenshot.

http://s6.postimg.org/wrt95wkfl/Scr...0524_150832.png

That will be it for now!

Old Post 05-24-13 14:19 #
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Xfing
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Map 8: As I said before, a wonderful map bringing back the fondest memories of Doom 1 and DTWiD. The only thing that needs fixing is the megasphere secret, it should register at the megasphere, not at the rest of the room, which honestly one doesn't even have to walk into. When playing vanilla this could possibly present some problems. Plus, this level is considerably easier than Map 06, I dunno if that's acceptable or not. The door to the secret on the ledge can be opened from X: -1072; Y: -401 and Z: -88, I presume this shouldn't be possible.

Map 9: It does have that combined "The Pit" and "Tricks and Traps" vibe, but how about switching it with map 6? Both maps are actually easier than Map 6 in most manners. BTW, the area with the plasmagun you have to chainsaw the wall next to to get into doesn't count as an official secret. I suppose it should, it's not really easy to figure out at first glance.

Map 10: There's not much I have noticed to be off about this level. It plays well, is creative, and even its difficulty is similar to "Refueling Base". Me likey.

Map 11: The imp can fall out of the cage on the right near the garrison gate. The ledge with the cell pack does damage just like the nukage pit it's in (the one accessed by a secret tunnel in the next-to-the-exit room). But other than these little faults, this is a great level and one of the highlights of the set so far.

So, to summarize E1 or the "spaceport" levels:

I have managed to 3x 100% the first 11 levels, I wasn't going from pistol start though. don't think anything other than my little suggestions and bugs really needs to change, except for level 6, which sadly I think has to go. It looks like "The Living End", and so it completely doesn't fit E1, while E2 and E3 are already full of great submissions, so not much can be done I suppose. I'll keep on playing ^^

Old Post 05-24-13 19:42 #
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Doohnibor
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One more

http://i.imgur.com/XXWmFC0.png


http://i.imgur.com/1n8dIfq.png


http://i.imgur.com/P6HTrqm.png

Last edited by Doohnibor on 05-25-13 at 18:29

Old Post 05-25-13 13:38 #
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Fernito
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MAP19: the secret where I'm standing on in this screenshot has 2 sectors, and both are tagged as secrets:

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Old Post 05-25-13 14:57 #
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Avoozl
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Doohnibor said:
One more

http://i.imgur.com/XXWmFC0.png


http://i.imgur.com/1n8dIfq.png

Heh, the II makes the OO's look like angry eyes.

Old Post 05-25-13 15:01 #
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40oz
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I think I made a mistake in the general idea of my last post that I probably should have been more careful to avoid.

"Doom 2 the way id did" is a project that apparently did exactly what it's goal set out to do. To study the level designers of Doom 2 in such excruciating detail, and design a series of levels with the intention of mimicking their exact style of mapping. I think their responses, while overly sarcastic and reactionary at times, display that they have committed a lot of time into researching these id mapper's backgrounds and mapping trends in their level design following an encyclopedic list of mostly irrefutable facts.

I think the mistake I and several other players who are playing this are making is that they are taking this goal and assuming that the result would be that this wad would tap into each and everyone's memory bank and successfully recreate Doom 2 exactly the way you remember playing it 17 years ago. This is an enormous length of time and a shit ton of Dooming has happened between now and then, and it's very obviously possible that we've let go of some memories, and even some of our fondest memories are rather fuzzy, and distorted as time passes. It's not fair to blame this wad for this.

I don't think it's possible to have someone recreate your memories of Doom successfully, being as though we all didn't play the game the exact same way, at the same time, at the same age where our memories would have been more acute and retain the same amount of information as one another. More importantly, that wasn't what Doom 2 The Way Id Did set out to do, and I apologize for posting negatively with these wild expectations.

However, I'm discouraged that the D2twid submissions page shows a large list of submissions with over 25 mappers, where half of them didn't land a single map in the final cut. I'm going back to what I said initially after the public beta was released, that the management of this project would have been much better if it incorporated a buddy system of sorts, where mappers that didn't quite get it would get enough personalized help to deliver accurate representations of the particular id mapper they set out to emulate without disrupting the general feel of the megawad. At least, instead of having Esselfortium and Tarnsman occupy well over half of the entire map list where their body of submitted maps yielded a 90% or more success rate, as well as being the only mappers in the project (excepting Krispavera) with dynamic enough mapping styles to impersonate all three of id's level designers.

I mean, their commitment to delivering a strong product shows, and I don't mean to say that I don't think that they have the credibility to do what they did, but I miss the time when DTWID was fun, and felt like a project everyone could get involved in. Now it seems that you have to be an omniscient Doom intellectual to even be considered in something like this, which from my understanding is deviating into becoming a series of Doom IWAD recreations, and will probably go into famous megawads too. I'd love for Doomers like Phml and gggmork and ArmouredBlood and TimeofDeath and darkreaver to seek the opportunity appear in a future "Hell Revealed the way Yonotan Donner and Haggay Niv did it," but I fear that Tarnsman and Essel will prove to be the supercillious ones that talk them into playing in their own yard.

Last edited by 40oz on 05-25-13 at 18:21

Old Post 05-25-13 18:11 #
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schwerpunk
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Yeah, one of the things I like about community-based megawads is that there's a place for everyone, even the budding mapper. With D2TWiD, there just wasn't room for that kind of openness, and frankly I don't blame the project leads for that. They had an end goal in mind, and didn't want to make concessions. And the result is a pretty darned accurate representation of their wishes. There are plenty of megawads out there that don't require 'encyclopedic' (40oz, 2013, p. 18) knowledge of id to contribute to, so it's not like mappers are being left out in the cold. Plus they got feedback on their entries, even if they weren't accepted, which is probably the one thing every mapper craves, unilaterally.

Anyway, it feels a little early for a retrospective, lol. But that's my two cents. :p

Old Post 05-25-13 18:24 #
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Marcaek
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40oz said:
However, I'm discouraged that the D2twid submissions page shows a large list of submissions with over 25 mappers, where half of them didn't land a single map in the final cut.


That's probably because they didn't continue to refine their maps after initial rejection. If your work isn't up to snuff, get it up there.


I'm going back to what I said initially after the public beta was released, that the management of this project would have been much better if it incorporated a buddy system of sorts, where mappers that didn't quite get it would get enough personalized help to deliver accurate representations of the particular id mapper they set out to emulate without disrupting the general feel of the megawad.


I received copious amounts of THOROUGH live feedback in the IRC channel everyone was invited to join on multiple occasions, so this is kinda redundant. Basically, the same thing as what actually happened.


At least, instead of having Esselfortium and Tarnsman occupy well over half of the entire map list where their body of submitted maps yielded a 90% or more success rate, as well as being the only mappers in the project (excepting Krispavera) with dynamic enough mapping styles to impersonate all three of id's level designers.


If you want to get your map in, you have to devote the time and effort into refining it. Essel and Tarnsman have both been incredibly helpful when it comes to helping others improve their submissions. The resources were there, it's just that IMO the interest was not.


but I miss the time when DTWID was fun, and felt like a project everyone could get involved in. Now it seems that you have to be an omniscient Doom intellectual to even be considered in something like this,


I found it a lot of fun studying the styles and experimenting with concepts in those styles. As for "being a project everyone could get involved in", it always was, D2WID was a community project from the get go up until now. Omnicient doom intellectual? I came into the first project straight out of the Skulltag community with very little experience, and managed to at least come up with a conceptual boss arena that people seemed to really like. I've made like 10 maps ever, does that somehow make me an omniscient doom intellectual?


love for Doomers like Phml and gggmork and ArmouredBlood and TimeofDeath and darkreaver to seek the opportunity appear in a future "Hell Revealed the way Yonotan Donner and Haggay Niv did it," but I fear that Tarnsman and Essel will prove to be the supercillious ones that talk them into playing in their own yard.


What the hell does this even mean? Are you implying that mimicking author styles is "our" territory or something?


schwerpunk said:
Yeah, one of the things I like about community-based megawads is that there's a place for everyone, even the budding mapper. With D2TWiD, there just wasn't room for that kind of openness,


Completely absolutely false. "Budding mapper" describes me to a T. I've tossed out a lot of unplayable crap in the process of making something any good, and there's still plenty to learn. Again, this was a COMMUNITY project just like the first.

Old Post 05-25-13 18:55 #
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ComicMischief
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Still playing through, steadily.

Just beat this thing. I swear, this is one of the best maps I've played in a long, long time. Essel, consider me a fan.

Old Post 05-25-13 19:07 #
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schwerpunk
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Marcaek said:
Completely absolutely false. "Budding mapper" describes me to a T. I've tossed out a lot of unplayable crap in the process of making something any good, and there's still plenty to learn. Again, this was a COMMUNITY project just like the first.
Maybe I should've spoken more plainly. 'Budding' was code for 'kind of rubbish.' I haven't got to your map yet (looking forward to it, though), so I can't comment on that specifically, but I'm guessing it's pretty good if it made it into the megawad.

Also, I'm not complaining. My previous post was apologetics for the quality control.

Old Post 05-25-13 19:10 #
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Marcaek
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Kind of rubbish describes a lot of my early maps, so it still fits :P

Old Post 05-25-13 19:12 #
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purist
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I'd hoped that more discussion would take place on the forum and D2TWiD site as I'd never used IRC and still don't really understand what it is or how it works. I could always have made more of an effort of course and I regret that I never as I would have loved to have been more involved. I was lucky that one of my maps at least got part included but I had other ideas for maps that I never completed as I spent time on maps that I wasn't aware were pretty much ruled out.

Old Post 05-25-13 19:45 #
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