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Xfing
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In level 31 near the blue armor secret some wall tiles extend below ground level. This is probably intentional to indicate the secret, though. har har


Also, in the western section, you can get trapped in between the wall and two yellow pillars if you fall wrongly. Nothing can be done about that. I know that this was probably intentional too, seing as the level is pretty hazardous overall. But making the player pay for single missteps in susceptible areas is a bit harsh.

Last edited by Xfing on 10-17-13 at 22:35

Old Post 10-17-13 21:28 #
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dew
experts


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Bleh, this took me much longer than expected, sorry everyone. Not enough time & plenty to explore on the map meant a big delay.

map15: pack: A lengthy FDA where I try to unfold the secret sectors of the map with mixed success, an unsuccessful "intro to speedrun" where I continuously respawn until I get quite far, but a very late block makes me rq. Also a successful run of considerable length (secret exit iirc) and a fairly polished max. That one took me the longest, because sewing a sensible route into this map wasn't easy at all, heh.

S'yeah, I find the theme interesting. "Sandy doing Industrial Zone with his Suburbs tools". I mean it feels more like the city side of Industrial Zone than Downtown, there's more of that jumping around, building to building, conquering them rather than solving some silly trap gimmick. That's how it felt to me at least. Oh, and the river, heh. On the other hand, that bridge feels just right and Romero would probably make you raise it first.

At first I was worried about the difficulty of the start, because I got dicked by going into the COMP maze without proper armaments, but after some thought put to it... yeah, the weapons are there if you know where to look for them. And even though I don't think Sandy was this nasty (the SG is in a non-inviting alley behind a bend), it does illustrate the style of Petersen and could happen in, say, 16 or 18. I'd get rid of the pillar the CG sits on, though, that feels pointless and almost secretish without being one - and given the lack of chainers on the map, hiding one of the weak weapons like that serves no gameplay purpose, imo. Now if it was visible from the central plaza, that would tie the map together a bit and reduce random panicked wandering with just pistol.

The secret exit is pretty cheap, although I did break it with an exploit before even understanding the mechanism, heh. That I carried over to the speedrun, of course, which is pretty damn long, but after the short easy runs in 13 and 14 this is a nice change of pace. Secret exit and regular exit are probably only a few secs apart, but there simply isn't a massive exploit like the Industrial Zone one. Not that I'm calling for one, I really like that the invul sees some action, heh. In this regard the run(s) reminds of the regular map15 run, although I think pacifist will be slightly easier because no ending chaingunner shennanigans.

I have to say I was underwhelmed by the RK pit (behind BK door), that's just trivial. Especially after the sweet invasion, that one's orchestrated nicely and the (almost) forced invul pickup is kinda funny, like... who does that these days, right? Good decision. Tbh it was maybe too good for Doom 2, haha. YK fight is lovely and well designed as well. BK fight is kinda bleh, not a fan of that one.

As I said before, maxing the map was the real challenge. Plotting the route so there's as little backtracking as possible while BFG and RL ammo gets picked and used at the right time, that took me a few days of hohumming (although translated to manhours it was no grind). That's a massive plus, of course. I think the demo looks quite good, because there's a lot of risk and bigtime BFG precision strikes, heh.

Alas, not all is properly balanced and logical, even for Doom 2. I'd say one of the megas is superfluous and way too pampering upon replay. It's either the pillar one or the BK pit one, the secret exit structure one is very welcome, hah. If you want to keep the map overstacked because true faith and whatnot, make it a soulsphere and it'll still be more than enough. Two invuls rock, however, they make for the most insane optimization, heh. Oh and there's plenty of flipping switches from below. Certainly a leave it in, as none of them really breaks the map too much and it's a very naive old trick, heh. The one for triggering the lost soul secret early made me particularly happy, because another backtrack to that corner of the map would just be annoying timewaste.

Re: the DM BFG room, I don't mind you keeping the secret(s!) empty, even though I don't get the reference (is there one? Or just an early version screwup?), but I'd say go one step further and make the switch lower a part of sector 171, so player has to run from 173 (as I did in the FDA, although that way it's too challenging). No need for handouts that are too easy. One easyish BFG is enough. SSG t.150 is an almost certain forced pickup and DM players have been known to burn down houses for less. Stick it in the maze somewhere, imo (so it's less of a SSG+BFG sweep). Now playerstart t.8 is utter fucking troll, heh. I know he gets the first invul, BUT then he gets nothing at all, has to tele out to a battlefield with just a pistol AND he spawns in a spot where he's easily telefragged by the plasma guy anyways. Move the spawn a bit and put at least something (SG?) to, say, sector 13. Or just remove the spawn entirely and call that area a one-time visit for the invul, no real harm in that, the design of it is terrible for DM anyways. Not sure how I feel about spawn t.6 (is it too cheap, or necessary at all?)

Nowww to the funniest part. I know this is a Petersen map, so crudeness and slack is to be expected, but seriously Tarns, when you were editing/shrinking the map, were you doing it with your buttcheeks? Some of those mistakes are p funny. Things 278 (shellbox), 340 (chainsaw) and 312 (revenant) are outside of map area. That's a cool fuckup, except for the rev, that will drive maxers angry and it's more of a Memento Mori fuckup. T. 283 (shells) are partially crammed into a wall. The lost soul closet being tagged as secret is pretty silly, but you already fixed that I think? Linedef 440 has a pointless door action on a onesided wall, heh. Secret sector 105 is inaccessible, because there's no way to lower 156. Which is good, because those cell packs would be too luxurious for just destroying the map with BFG. Kill it entirely. Oh and looking at the lost soul corner from s.154 is just superugly, I think the sky is set too low in the outlying sector?

Whew, that was long. A lot of whining and nitpicking, but I like the map, I do.

Old Post 10-17-13 23:52 #
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ellmo
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MAP08 - god I hate that map. The start with 100 monsters just standing there and waiting till you come looking for a stimpack or a clip makes this almost undoable from pistol start. You need to get lucky to be able to do anything. If there only was a chaingun somewhere around the starting rooms, or simply more health.

...however that's not why I'm mentioning the map. I found a bug, dunno yet if this is because of Eternity Engine or is it some kind of a vanilla bug, but I'm being damaged by slime while wearing rad suit. Not every tick, it actually doenst happen often, but it's enough to get me killed, because that part is quite long.

Anybody noticed this too?

Old Post 10-19-13 01:42 #
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esselfortium
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ellmo said:
MAP08 - god I hate that map. The start with 100 monsters just standing there and waiting till you come looking for a stimpack or a clip makes this almost undoable from pistol start. You need to get lucky to be able to do anything. If there only was a chaingun somewhere around the starting rooms, or simply more health.

...however that's not why I'm mentioning the map. I found a bug, dunno yet if this is because of Eternity Engine or is it some kind of a vanilla bug, but I'm being damaged by slime while wearing rad suit. Not every tick, it actually doenst happen often, but it's enough to get me killed, because that part is quite long.

Anybody noticed this too?


Radsuits are programmed to occasionally leak when you're in 20% damage sectors.

Old Post 10-19-13 01:55 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Oh my god MAP32 is magical. Scarier than Doom 3 by a long shot.

Old Post 10-19-13 02:29 #
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Xfing
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Posts: 137
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Dragonsbrethren said:
Oh my god MAP32 is magical. Scarier than Doom 3 by a long shot.


Agreed, that map is fucking terrifying. Want gaming to evoke intense emotion, as it should? Play D2TWiD!

Old Post 10-19-13 07:45 #
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ellmo
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esselfortium said:

Radsuits are programmed to occasionally leak when you're in 20% damage sectors.


...really? I had no idea and never noticed it before. Hm, you learn something new each day. Is that like a random chance every "x" ticks?

Anyway, I finally beat the map and am rendering a video. Takes a while as I changed software to be able to record more modern stuff later. Even while playing quake Screenflick was cutting down to 20fps.

Map08 was the first map I couldn't finish on first attempt from pistol start. I'm off to map09 now.

Old Post 10-19-13 12:16 #
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Xfing
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Are the D2TWiD maps supposed to run the same music as the Doom 2 maps? If so, level 15 doesn't play Running from Evil which it should share with map 01.

In map 18 the pit with blood with a secret door opening along with a nearby lift is a trap with no escape. I think some escape option should be added.

In map 19 the switch texture in the demons/barrels/arch-vile secret is misaligned, half of it is cut off. So is the texture of the unmarked yellow keycard door.

In map 22 you have still kept the pointless blue torch secret. I assume this was intentional, then. Also, the megasphere hidden beyond the black high voltage symbol door doesn't register as a secret. The teleporter in the C-shaped pit with lost souls late in the level doesn't work.

In map 23 the exit skull switch texture is a bit too low on the wall.

Map 30: The boss dies to 3 rockets again. I actually liked it more when bringing down the boss took 5-6 rockets instead of just 3. 3 is too easy on this map. I know that figuring out how to do it is half the trick, but during the execution the player is in no immediate danger. There are much more safe havens in this level than there were in the Icon of Sin. Plus, it's much easier and faster to resume your position for another shot. Needing several more rockets to finish off the boss in this level was what made it fun and memorable, and conveyed that much-needed sense of fear of being overrun. With 3 rockets it's over way too soon.

Last edited by Xfing on 10-19-13 at 17:39

Old Post 10-19-13 12:18 #
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Xfing
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Oh, and BTW: I remember complaining about there not being an entirely "subterranean hell" level in the first beta. Well, I must have missed The Bloodwash completely. Actually at first I thought the map in the new beta was an entirely new one, but then I checked the previous WAD and it was the same. Well duh, The Bloodwash is obviously the intended equivalent to The Spirit World.

Old Post 10-19-13 16:01 #
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dew
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map16: pack: A ponderous, explorative FDA and a comfy, fairly lazy max.

Well, Pavs himself admits the map channels too much of himself over Sandy and I agree - it's sprawling and spacious while fairly flat. There are no dangerous vertical situations in which you have no idea where you are jumping to and what waits below. The stretchy, spacious architecture could be justifiable in the outside areas, but in the inside parts it feels like it misses the mark. I hear a "squeeze" is in process, so hopefully that improves the general vibe.

Gameplay-wise it's also a cornucopia of various approaches and ... results. That fits the Sandy scheme, but some of them should see some improvements just for the sake of being more fun, heh. The first and most obvious offender is, of course, the blinky maze. It's uncharacteristically low and/but WIDE with very weak opposition that can never really bother you. It's way too easy to just run past anything in those comfy 6-line highway corridors. The only danger in that part comes from a bunch of chaingunners that oversee the SSG, but their room is sealed off with a block monster barrier. Eh. That's crippling for the monsters inside the blinky maze if you just chill there and watch the demons mull around. Is it necessary to hold the monsters inside like this? Add switch/keyed doors if you need to, or let them roam, but this is demeaning for them. Next, there is a blue armor secret in there right next to a megasphere secret. Uh, that's just wasteful. Just switch the mega into a soulsphere and it'll make more sense. Not to smear everything, I quite like the blinky motif coupled with the secret goggles to defuse it.

The room holding the BK isn't very convincing either, because it consists of a lot of running around a spacious empty room with just one underwhelming ambush and then a bunch of laughable demons on the way to the teleporter out. Shrink&populate, I guess. I like the secret that semi-connects it tho. Gunshot on a random differently textured wall is certainly weird, but also charming, given the clues.

I have nothing to say against the eastern weirdo gallery structure ("What is this supposed to be, Sandy?" "Dunno lol.") and the moving floor room, that one's a massive troll for anyone in a rush, but it wouldn't be Doom 2 without a thing like that. It's also a place for testing out various void glide scenarios - did you know the void MOVES along with their assigned "real" sectors? Funny. Also void glides back into the map don't seem to work the same way. :( None of that helps to finish the map though, just Doom oddities here.

The central area could also use a bit of shrinking, so the horde below has any chance against the doomguy. Also I'd that ninja demon on the other side of the start area structure with another one that is in front of the player. The ambush works, but otherwise the area's too empty and this will improve both, I believe. Next the revenant pillars/cages should be brought a bit closer to the ledge to the RK door, because the cage's pretty big and aiming at them/wasting rockets is not exactly fun.

The room behind the RK bars doesn't make much sense. Imps should be on the sniper platform with HKs on the ground. That would make the fight more exiciting, right now it's just a quick mindless intermezzo.

And I kept the spiders/secrets for the last. It's a solid idea, I can get behind it, but I'd just get rid of the BFG. Combined with all the cell ammo and invul you're just motivated to keep everything alive at start, grab that gear later and go to town on silly harmless low/mid tier monsters. Not remotely fair, keep it at plasma, imo. Put all the cell ammo on the (former) BFG platform to make sense of the 4 platforms. Oh and the final room would be more fun with a spider, imo. The manco is a bad gatekeeper, heh.

Oh and for DM, move the SSG at the 4 secret moving platforms to the exit area in place of the SG there. No need to give everything to the guy spawning at the bonuses, heh. Speedrun possibilities are next to nothing right now, but negotiations have been held over irc with possible peacekeeping plans within reach.


map17: pack: A FDA and a casual max I segmented when I hated how I botched a situation late in the run.

A Romero sighting after a big block of Sandy, yey! The layout and the theme, even the opposition and mapping "tools" remind me of O of Destruction rather than Tenements. On the other hand, the overall progression, the east section and the speedrun route (undisclosed) are the other way around. That's cool, that's fine.

Not fine: the northwestern area is a bit weird and unexciting. I dunno, maybe a spider in the RL room instead of the HK? I don't want to see it too hard because of speedrunning, of course. :) Also not fine: sector 45 with the ambush imps at RK is too low and the poor imps have their heads stuck in the ceiling, so the platform never lowers. Thsi might have been reported already, I dunno.

Speedrunning this is fun, because there are no (major) speedtricks and you have to do some running around. Definitely map17. I'd like zombie t. 289 obliterated or moved around the corner next to it, though. Call me selfish, but it'd help with that room's problem, hehe. The one significant speed trick will remain undisclosed. I also tried grabbing the RK from outside of its cage, but no luck, probably too far (for puny humans).

I kinda like how you get overloaded with cells and even BFG when it becomes useless, heh. That's also quite map11-like. It's fun to atomize the caco/PE batch with it though. Speaking of which, I think I've noticed some inconspicuous node brokenness of the south side of their alcove (sprites visible through floor/wall). Not sure if necessary to investigate. Otherwise the max is nicely (faithfully) overstacked on stuff, although not too wildly (while the speedrun is jsut so-so with medkit management).

MP: I don't think it's necessary to have a DM start in the start area. It serves no purpose, you can move it to the SP SG easily. The chainsaw behind the RK door is disgusting, heh. Can't it be moved elsewhere where you won't trip over it and switch to it every time? Oh and that coop cyb seems quite brutal, didn't Romero throw them in pits usually? Like, the SSG pit would be pretty funny and devious as well.

Overall I liked the map a lot, with small reservations.

Old Post 10-20-13 02:02 #
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dew
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map18: pack: A two-part FDA because a fucking inescapable death pit and a surprisingly logical (although slow and greatly unoptimized) max. Speedrun withheld from public eye. :)

I enjoyed this map tremendously, I liked almost everything about it, which I can't say about The Citadel or The Courtyard, which this map seems to reference, heh. I felt the traps and secrets were devious and often dickish, but didn't break my suspension of disbelief as hard as some of Sandy's utter hacks where you just watch sectors move and that's it. You don't see ledges or platforms or lifts, just sectors. map19 was especially guilty of that in some of the rooms in the bowels of the citadel.

Anyways, the map was fairly demanding, markedly nonlinear and explorative during the first experience, secrets are properly... uh, "hidden while marked well", so you just have to wrap your mind around it, everything becomes quite easy once you learn your enemy placement and weapon strategy, so I'll call that a big success. Most importantly, it feels like a good Petersen map. It's balanced like one, meaning you end the map overstacked even if you go RL/BFG blazing in the latter half of the map, heh.

But not all is cookie-flavoured. There's the inescapable pit of death in front of the plasma secret. Seriously, that's not how you "accidentally" forget to map a way out, or just tell player to deal with it, don't fall there. There's a secret in there visible on the automap, so it lures you towards certain death unless you wield the power of save&load. That's mean and a big design flaw. Oh and I have a nitpick: the candles in the exit room seem to hover, that's not something Doom2 would be known for, so move them a little so they don't overlap with the higher sector (stairs).

On the plus side, the map looks very Gigeresque on the automap with all the phallic shapes. Is that a plus? It should be.


map19: pack: A lengthy cautious FDA and a manipulated (segmented) max. It was too complex to memorize and execute in such a short time, I was getting lost, heh.

Interesting concept, this map, like Downtown given E3 hellish treatment. It's good fun to play. Quirky ideas, optional areas you don't recognize as optional at first, weird, well defined traps and setpiece fights... yup, Sandy channeled there. Some secrets are pretty tough to figure out and you always get a feeling you are headed in some "definite" direction while you haven't cleared out the previous area, that's spot on Doom2 map13/19.

I cheated the max with segmenting, because I couldn't grind out a route in my memory in such a short time, but I feel it's fine. Rather overstacking the player, he's allowed to risk and rush a lot once he designs a route. Actually, maybe there's too much BFGing going on. I think it should be safe to axe one secret cell pack entirely (all difficulties) - either the one at plasma or one of the pair in the secret above yellow door. Two invuls are fine tho, because I feel like a lot of their time will go to waste anyways, haha.

I enjoyed the jumping platformer puzzle, that's worth a shoutout. It also features a silly 2seconds saving hard jump, heh. I like that - the map doesn't feature a fullblown exploit-level trick, more like a bunch of high risk moves that might shave off a second or two in a polished speedrun, but no one else would risk that. Also I do think it's impossible to jump from the YK to the exit (almost) platform, well, without some very evil Doom sorcery (insane monster slides, coop boosts while mid-air), so that's safe.

It is possible to run the map pacifist style, but I have one nag - doing the lava "loop" behind the YK door while going for RK can be done with a SR50 dash in nomonsters, but it's 99% impossible with monsters, because of those two stupid pigs (t. 111, 113). Btw, while usually you could use a pistol shot to mix things up, this would mean ALL monsters waing up and cacos porting in to block your way to RK door later, so silence is vital. If those pigs were moved elsewhere on the platform or there was more space between their initial positions, a pretty demanding runner trick would be facilitated and the speedroute would become much sexier overall (the rest is not that complicated - except the final manco, which is pretty hard to work with on pacifist).

(I haven't commented on MP for these two maps, because they're sprawling enough to just let you do whatever you want. It's not like they'll ever be balanced anyways and there were no glaring errors in placement.)

Old Post 10-21-13 02:07 #
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Xfing
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I love the length and vividity of your descriptions, dew. Your take on levels is very interesting and having played the levels myself I can't help but appreciate your work. Especially since you still manage 3x100ing the levels, and for me this ability broke around level 14 :P

Overall you're a smart motherfucker.

Guys, make sure you withhold the final release before dew finishes running through the game and apply whatever you can from what he says.

Old Post 10-21-13 12:53 #
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Alfonzo
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Xfing said:
Guys, make sure you withhold the final release before dew finishes running through the game and apply whatever you can from what he says.
Indeed. We're working very closely with dew over at the IRC channel, discussing some of his observations in more depth. This goes for most observations made in the thread of course, but dew's practically signed himself into a contract to see this beta out.

Cool guy!

Old Post 10-21-13 14:27 #
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Xfing
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Sweet. Even though I play quite a bit of Doom myself, I would never be able to judge that say, one cell pack can be removed from the level O_o

Old Post 10-21-13 15:16 #
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dew
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Thank you for your kind words. However it's no magic to realize you're allowed to sweep half of the map's monsters with endless BFG after you plan out your map properly. And that hurts replayability, so I suggested to take away a bit of that generous cell supply. :) Anyways.

map20: pack: I marked the "casual" play SDA (second demo attempt, heh), because I've played this map back when this project started and essel made a pair of maps to verify some style findings we've made in a few irc discussions. Then I kinda removed myself from the project for a bunch of years, heh. This might even be the oldest map in the pack, I suspect! Anyways, since I only remembered the early version in vague terms, it was almost like a FDA. And a slacked, but not entirely incompetent maxrun.

The map's theme is obviously a Living End jam session. It looks that way and gameplay matches it to a considerable degree as well. All the mad verticality, irregular rock stairs, long distance snipers... yeah, that's fine. The start is a bit funny - progressing via the intended way is probably harder than any other choice, heh. Anyways, the start area is tits. Actually with one exception. Giving away BFG so early is fine, but that cellpack next to it ruins balance so hard. You get enough shots to destroy all the stronger monster packs until... well, more cell ammo. Using secrets to increase pace is lovely, but let's not get carried away, I'd say two or three cell charges instead of a whole pack (=1-1.5 shots instead of 2.5) should make a lot of difference in weapon handling.

The area behind the YK bars is a mixed bag. I didn't care much for the orhogonal southwestern end and I thought it was rather overly busy with monster bodies, but I guess that's part of Romero maps as well. The stairs, the superweird "thorn" platform over the nuke pit and the obscure secret I enjoyed a lot. If it's possible, I'd remove zombieman t.117 for HMP/UV so he complements the chainer next to him and just maybe speedrunners have a bit less mess to wade through. :) Cell balance is okay here - especially if you consider that earlier cell pack downsized. Some players might find themselves with the BFG, but no ammo for it when it'd be just perfect - HA HA, tough luck. Also please make the YK door regular door, it may serve some Romeroesque purpose, but the bars should be enough. Or should they? *wink wink nudge nudge*

For improved possibilities of speedrunning (yes, I'm going to be a bit annoying with this, I couldn't get anything without segmenting the run because of monster clutter, heh) I propose moving imp t.83 to s. 3, maybe behind the corner to keep a bit of that ambush mentality. He does terrible things to speedrunners - he delays you for a while and all the other monsters go in positions that block you just a while later. Also he blocks the vile. What vile? Did I say anything? No, I didn't.

Anyways, the soulsphere jump is a pretty sweet action moment. The whole mid section looks pretty badass, I wonder how far form visplane overflowing it is, hehe. The sinking BK platform is also a lovely idea, especially the way it reveals the angry hitscanner room, except you shut it all up with a single BFG shot. That feels pretty damn good, hehe. Back to BFG balance: the secret cell pack is fine and appropriate, but pack t.300? Damn, too much. Make it a cell charge at most, or remove it entirely. At that point I struggled to even justify switching away from the befk and I had SO many rox... t.311 supplies the player well enough for the ledge building fight. Which is a pretty good scene, especially in a speedrun where the player sits quietly around a corner and pretends he's not even there, haha.

A "short" note on MP: a coop cyb is spot on, of course. DM weapons... eeeeh. One BFG too many. Kill the one in the secret area, it has a mega already, gaaaahd! The one in the supersecret area behind exit should be enough to balance out the start one. Also throw a BA in the middle of the nukage just because, the map is pretty much heavy weaponry, so players should be appropriately heavy as well. Make plasma t.371 a RL instead and remove all the multiplayer-only cell charges entirely. There's no need to replenish everyone's BFGs even beyond the SP stock.

Overall I like the map, it's very stylish, but it's a tad too easy for maxrunning and two tads (?) too hard for speedrunning, heh.


map31&32: pack: a FDA for both maps. Split into two parts for map31 because of the baron trap. You dicks. :P

The secret maps are nothing short of amazing. I knew it'd be Keen-themed, but I didn't realize how much, heh. The "global map" in map31 is just heartwarming. The texturing is a bit painful and sometimes even confusing (doors), but that comes with the homage territory. I like how I had to back out of one area because of ammo shortage, so I had to go elsewhere. I'd say that's very Keen-like, but that'd just sound terrible, haha.

I won't judge balance or monster placement or anything, because I feel like that's not even really the point here. I had fun with it and it's a better homage than Doom2's Wolfenstein, uh, fiasco. Well, I think two of the yorps are hidden too well, making the secret exit improbable without luck. I only stumbled into the linedef that releases their little cage by accident it's l. 5996 releasing t. 181&182. It should be more obvious, imo. Also that stimpak, t. 216, hovers rather badly, move it farther from the walls.

The baron pit is a terrible dick move, but I like it. :) There's also a speedrun possibility, but let's keep that private.

I won't comment on map32 to not spoil a thing. There's not really anything to nag about, it's a great idea and it's nicely executed. Nicely challenging fight! Just maybe... remove all cell ammo except for the BFG itself (no PG or cells). You know, the Dis lesson should still haunt us as a mistake not to be repeated.

Last edited by dew on 10-23-13 at 20:08

Old Post 10-23-13 20:02 #
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dew
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Delays, delays... sorry for taking so long. I'm also skipping maps 21&22, because the former is still being rebuilt and the latter has srs ammo issues in e8. I'll get an update from Tarns when I remember it.

map23: pack:A FDA, a max and a nomo run. That reveals a trick, but that trick is truly obvious, so I'm not worried.

Well, this map came as a surprise. I mean yeah, there was supposed to be one more McGee map around this spot, but I wasn't expecting chunkier Inmost Dens with gameplay straight out of Focus, heh. I'll keep this rant short, like the map. There's not much to bitch about, if anything, and it's been a greatly enjoyable romp. Heavy weapons are decently balanced/distributed while player swims in hitscan ammo, that should be within project goals, heh. I went balls out in the maxdemo and used up the generous powerups to their fullest by playing fast & reckless, the way Doom is served best.

I've shown Tarns a small edit that'll allow a properly cool speedrun. The hardcore hitscan hell makes it either impossible to survive or kinda lame with having to kill most of the shotgunners en route. It'll also justify the super-easy BK grab, heh. There's another possible cool trick, but that touches TAS-only territory, heh.

Oh and DM: Get rid of the BFGs. The map's tiny, it doesn't need them. Keep it at RL/hitscans with a touch of plasma.


map24: pack: A two-part FDA (guess why) and a max. Speedrun withheld. :P

Now this is a bitch and a half. I hear Tarns called it d2twid's Barrels o' Fun and that seems accurate. A lot of witty ideas here, some fun, some devious and a few of them are outright annoyingly dickish, heh. The first and lat crusher are basically impossible to predict, so that's kinda mean (I didn't bother to finish my FDA when the last one killed me, heh), but eh... I guess it's alright by Sandy standards. The revenant crusher is definitely the most fun one. The spider fight is a bit weird, but I did like the way it was set up. You might need to rethink the way the lost soul closets there, I kinda doubt most players would trip those. Speaking of lost souls, that opening megacloset full of them was delicious, heh. The crusher there might need one imp fewer, imo. They create a nasty meat wall and it's too easy to catch some damage AND get crushed immediatelly afterwards. That or make the crusher higher (and therefore a bit slower).

I already talked with Marcaek about the plasma (non)secret. It's fine to create such a devious do-or-die puzzle, but it's not fine to make the map unmaxable if one aborts from completing it. The caco closet will remain closed forever that way. I'd say use a redundancy line (at the teleporter?) to open it even if player falls down and ignore that Sandy wouldn't do that, cause the cacos kinda make it mandatory for anyone going for 100%.

To talk about the layout a little, I like the non-linearity, optional bits and secret routes. Especially the way you jump the player around to reuse sections. Definitely good stuff, although feeling more like doom2 map28 or some other Sandy map rather than Barrels. That one's pretty lazy layout-wise, heh. It can be pretty confusing, too (like maybe The Pit?), I had to segment the maxdemo, because I kept forgetting where to go next, heh.

Aaand speedrun. I've discussed this with Marcaek and it has both pros and cons, but most runners would probably hate the map without it, heh. Especially pacifists, getting to BK would be pretty damn annoying. It'd also involve another invul dash in the final part and there has been a bunch of those, actually.

S'yeah, an oddball map channeling the mindset of "Sandy plays with traps and forgets to make the rooms look like anything". It pissed me off a bunch of times, which seems to be the goal here, so thumbs up, heh.

Old Post 10-27-13 16:08 #
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dew
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Pressing on to map25! Here's a pack consisting of, eh, a second demo attempt and a max.

This was one of the few maps I played back when the project started, but I can say I only remembered it being a little sandbox and then that pressure floor tiles puzzle, the latter being that trademark gimmick one will always retain in memory. I'd actually say there's some Doom E3 in this, not just D2 Sandy, although others may not agree. The style influences are less pronounced here and harder to directly connect.

It has to be said that essel's d2twid maps seem to share a few traits despite mimicking different id people... When you make sense of the design and plan a solid route, you'll realize you're in another cell weapon romp. This time there's enough cells to utilize both the plasma and then the secret BFG. Not that it's a bad thing, it speeds up the pace and makes player risk and soak in some damage. Doom2 is like that a lot of the time. I've kept enough cell ammo for that horde I knew should be coming at some point... but eh, they never arrive, because this revision tries to connect the closet with an oldschool sound tunnel, but the tunnel ends in a wall, much lower than the closet physically is. Way to screw up 1994 tricks, essel. :)

The section to rave about is the pressure floor tiles puzzle, that's so silly and just marginally difficult, but it feels right at home. Complete with a castrated cyberdemon, heh. The BFG secret is cute and fun as well. The berserk secret is ridiculously useless, I guess that's appropriate as well, heh. As I said, there's an abundance of cells - watch the max and decide if that's alright. I placed my shots efficiently, but even if I didn't there's maybe a cellpack too much. I had trouble actually spending enough cells in the BFG secret not to waste any, heh. If you want to make it less of a sweep, I'd say kill cellpack t.231.

The part I didn't care for too much was the imp staircase leading to the final platform, that whole room + the cave, because I'd love to be able to beat it in a speedrun. An idea was sent to essel privately (which also exploits an "essel feature" shared by most of his maps, heh). Oh and one DM nag - remove the DM start in the start area. That guy teleports in front of another guy and that creates unnecessary choke point. Especially the SSG guy can go camp there and rake in spawn and telefrags by controlling a relatively small area.


map26: pack: a FDA, a max and even a speedrun, yay! The last one seemed brutal at first, but proper tactics and practice help quite a bit.

Well, here go Abandoned Mines with a couple of other Romeresque vibes. It's pretty tough at first, but knowing the weapon placement and how one can abuse the secrets to skip around the map makes it fairly comfy ride. Also it seems everyone who was tasked with a Romero map just had to put in some loooong waits for raising ledges, heh. :P Here it makes for quite a spectacular fight (or fights?), definitely an exciting highlight, although a bit silly in a speedrun.

Cell ammo seems balanced well, although most of it is tucked in the side areas and not in my goddamn speedroute where I'd love to get one more BFG shot, haha. Rockets become a factor only for the final part of the map, sadly, but finding PG/BFG does make up for it. A purely hitscannish playthrough would probably feel a bit sloggy. What I felt didn't make much sense was the (non)secret megasphere pretty much near the BA. I mean yes, you can grab one and never find the other because of the way the secrets fork the route, but it's tactically weird and loads of players will opt to save one for later and then go for a (fairly confusing) backtrack.

But those are details and nitpicks and speculations, overall the whole main area creates a fine map. Oh, and the arach snipers are pretty devious! My only true gripe is the final area. It's such an anticlimax! One battles the flier horde and then the cyb, wow that was fun, let's jump into this pool and see the next map... and then the player gets a rather uninspired rapey mix of revs and chainers and some other minnows in an ugly dark cave. Most of them begin to infight almost immediatelly and you almost cannot avoid catching some histcan flak from the rest. That part does nothing for me, it just dilutes the map after the big finale and the monsters are only dangerous if one rushes through them, speedrun style. Especially the fanned out formation on the lowering ledge and the two chainers guarding the next switch were just annoying health drain I just wanted to wish out of existence.

So yeah, it's a really good and fun map, but the final area is my least favourite Tarnsman bit in the pack. A small DM note - give that guy spawning at the bottom (DMspawn t.348) something better than a SG, maybe chaingun. He's in a place where the SSG guy and the BFG guy emerge, heh. DMspawn t.344 could use that SG instead.

Old Post 10-28-13 18:42 #
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dew
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map27: pack: A speedrun and a SDA, because I sadly overwrote my FDA that I quitted after getting my ass handed to me several times. Well, no see dew dying, kids, as I already knew the hardest parts for this one. :P And this time it's going to be the max that's going to stay secret, hehe.

Well, so this is obviously kind of a Nirvana/Tricks n' Traps late surprise party. It does look totally goofy and messy (almost E3-stupid on the automap, too!), so job well done. Some of the best Petersenian texturing on display. It's not really a haphazard collection of some rooms Sandy had lying around when they needed one more map though, it conveys a feeling of a place with a couple of trippy detours. Liking it.

Difficulty is pretty badass at first, because hunting down some weapons & powerups is not intuitive, there are some meanies in the way and generally it's a series of deaths and cursing the mapper, heh. Luckily, most of the monsters can be escaped, bypassed or at least herded, which is what Doom lets you do a lot and which I felt was sometimes not possible in d2twid with its "too well" placed initial hallway populations.

I warmed up to the simple speedrun with two "herding situations". It can be pretty fast and good looking with smooth movement, so I tossed away the idea of a two-vile jump to the BK, heh. The platform is just slightly too high and the viles take too long to collect anyways. I hid the max because it was a fairly optimized segmented bullshit run that raped the map silly, heh. I did enjoy that v much and it'll probably see some excellent max demos.

Just a small nitpick - add a "last hope" rocket behind the WOODGARG door where you face the lone spider sniper. It can happen that you get blocked on top with shotgunners clogging the drop tunnel. Oh and for DM... it's an interesting idea to make this an invis fight (read: it probably won't work, it rarely does, but it can be crazy fun), but I'd replace the SGs with SSGs, at least t. 281 and 279. Too many other strong weapons on a small map. And for all that is holy, kill all the mp-only cell packs dead! There's already quite lot of cell ammo and this'd just turn it into a neverending cell spam.


map28: A FDA for it. Just that, the rest is best not shown. :P It's a pretty damn long FDA, I was having trouble surviving this one.

Well, this was crazy. I almost forgot there wasn't a Chasm-type map yet and it came with a vengeance. A lot of devious spots for first timers, especially PE-based fights on fairly low ammo. Jumping puzzles instead of ledge crawling is welcome, even though it gets a bit silly and clashes with Doom engine's limitations in several spots (the bonus pillars in the northern room are such a bitch). That room is pretty cool though. I also like the eastern room (cool mechanism) and the starter room for a change is quite tough to take on early, so it kinda repels you out, heh. On the other hand I wanted to punch the western watery room. Not a bad puzzle, but monsters teleporting on the pillar pissed me off, heh.

The hubs are a great idea, loved it and all the things you can do in them and even the confusion of where the hell I'm headed. I'm still lost from all the teleporting, tbh, so I had to segment my max attempt where I kept taking wrong turns. I do exploit quite a lot of things in the max, even though not by far to the fullest - yeah, there are some fairly big exploits waiting to happen, but I have to say I find them all charming and "naive" in that original Sandy manner. So I'd keep them in, even the terrible way I abused the lost soul limit. Not much to do about that anyways, heh.

A speedrun might need an architectural edit, but I'd be thankful for that immensely, because it'd allow a pretty great route AND not having to deal with the YK quest. Which I probably wouldn't be able to stomach in a speedrun. We'll discuss that privately. Oh and the map goes unnecessarily overboard with the number of DM spwns, but I guess it doesn't matter... at least it goes all cannons crazy, heh.

Old Post 10-31-13 01:46 #
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Xfing
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Posts: 137
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dew said:
My only true gripe is the final area. It's such an anticlimax! One battles the flier horde and then the cyb, wow that was fun, let's jump into this pool and see the next map... and then the player gets a rather uninspired rapey mix of revs and chainers and some other minnows in an ugly dark cave. Most of them begin to infight almost immediatelly and you almost cannot avoid catching some histcan flak from the rest. That part does nothing for me, it just dilutes the map after the big finale and the monsters are only dangerous if one rushes through them, speedrun style. Especially the fanned out formation on the lowering ledge and the two chainers guarding the next switch were just annoying health drain I just wanted to wish out of existence.


I beg to differ on this one, dew. The fact that the Cyberdemon isn't the final enemy even though one might be led to believe it is is one of the biggest strenghts of this map. Defeating the Cyberdemon lulls the player into a false sense of security and premature celebration, that's why the following monsters make such an impact. Be reminded that in E4M2: Perfect Hatred the Cyberdemon also isn't the final enemy - though this may not be the best example, since that one is more of a gimmick monster that can be telefragged. But personally I like the decision of including monsters after the Cyb in Damned Strait!

PS I think you'll love map 29.

Last edited by Xfing on 10-31-13 at 09:59

Old Post 10-31-13 09:51 #
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dew
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I admit it can be a matter of personal preference, which changes a little about how I feel about that part. :)

Anyways, yes, map29. I do like it a lot, even though it's a linear crawl up mountain that overshoots the goal and becomes too big and impressive to fit the goal of mimicking the original. Then again, I can understand the feeling here. The Living End is perhaps the most applauded map of Doom2, because at the time it was hard to imagine something more impressive. Of course it had to be outdone to show off a little, anything on a similar scale would be wildly inferior.

Still, it's rather gargantuan and quite long despite not having to wait for ridiculously slow rising ledges. It's also quite difficult, but again... outdoing TLE is probably a necessity. I like how you're given an option to screw with the first third of the map seriously by exploiting the secrets. That adds a degree of freedom not given by the "march up the stairs" linearity of the regular progression. Also it's funny to see two "finales", both of which are kinda avoidable, but with a lot of risk, not just running past a totally ineffective cyb. :)

Anyways, it's totally a plasma map, so be it. I won't show any demos this time, because I mostly fooled around with what I could abuse, heh. Powerups come in really handy for that. The battle/av sniper around the berserk pack made me shit my pants at first, heh. I can even tolerate the mixture of escapable/inescapable death pits, although one of them is really dickish for rushing players (s. 128).

I was worried how such a long, linear map would work with speedrunning, but essel presented an offering for which I'm very thankful. It'd still work better with a few small tweaks that may even work to improve regular gameplay a little, hehe. That'd be: flag l. 1578 and 1589 as not blocking sound. That should help with something sexy. Move spectre t. 174 to roughly pos 36, 4664 (behind the hitscanners) and spectre t. 176 to the barrier. It should remove the "impenetrable meat barrier" effect. Similarly, move spectre t. 244 (in the YK room) to cca 3028, 1944 (basically behind the corner) for more ambush and less head on "you shall not pass". And that should be it. I won't say what those things mean here, sorry. :P

Oh and... remove the DM start from the sp/coop start room. Giving that player all those weapons/stash is disgusting (he's also closest to the invul), heh. Move it directly to the RL below after the fall. I'd also say give the guys in the northeastern caves SSGs instead of SGs. They don't need to suffer that much.


No comment about map30, we covered that two years ago, heh. I also discussed map21 and map22 with their authors privately, so I'm pretty much done here! With one "small" exception...

Old Post 11-02-13 00:03 #
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dew
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Alright, time for my most insightful and least useful post so far! The promised Sandy Petersen Doors analysis.

Basically, you guys missed the fact that Sandy doors aren't true doors in the sense all the other id mappers understood them. A door is a construct that has two sides, right? When you look at maps by Romero, McGee, Hall or Green, you see the vast majority of their doors having mirrored actions. I'll go as far as guessing that DoomEd had a tool that did this for you when you used it on a sector. And either no one told Sandy, or he (partially?) chose to ignore this feature.

Sandy doors are fairly abstract constructs that only work as much as the map layout requires them to. They're NOT arbitrarily mirrored! With Romero or Hall you can often see "pointless" symmetry on stuff like secret closets acting like a DR door from both sides, or even utterly redundant symmetric D1 on keylocked doors. Sandy would have none of that, such a closet would be D1 and the other side would have no action at all. Actions get assigned only if there's a chance they'd get used, which leads me to think Sandy wasn't using some door feature and pondered upon actual functionality of every door he built. That's quite weird when you realize he was the "flood mapper" spamming out speedmaps to fill the quota, heh.

Enough preface. What is a sandy door? Your typical Sandy door is a symmetric DR door with action 1 (open wait close, monsters too). This is what connects all the usual rooms and interestingly enough, Sandy's doors make it easier for monsters to travel around the map. We often connect this feature to Romero, but with him it's the layout, the mild verticality that lets monsters roam. His doors are quite the roadblock as he ignores action 1 for others like action 117 (DR fast), 118 (D1 stay, fast) or 31 (D1 stay). If it's a common door, Sandy simply lets monsters use it as well. Shame the original Doom engine bugs out and makes it so hard for them to walk under door sectors, heh.

Then there are keylocked doors. These are almost always symmetric for the other mappers and almost always one-sided D1 for Sandy. Got a key? Well, you open the door and it stays. The other side? Why would I care about that? Yep, Sandy only assigns functionality to the other side if the map requires it. If there's no way for you to appear on the other side, then you don't need the door to work from there. Proofs of that are strewn over all his maps... and the special cases confirm it. Look at map08 PG/caco room - symmetric D1 stay. Why? Well, there's a DM spawn in the room! Look at map10 - this is actually a proof that Sandy totally reworked the functionality of the map (so it wasn't just a texture/populating job). All the doors are trademark Petersen, not Hall. The keyed doors are either D1 key-only from one side, or they have assymetric behaviour from the other side, depending on what Sandy needed. The D1 BK door leading to the cyb room is DR action 1 from the other side (and as it happens, you can get to that room by a shortcut). The exit room two-door sequence has the first flagged DR YK open-wait-close AND DR action 1 from the other side, while the second is D1 BK stay. Even if the functionality is kinda random, the "control" of it is very consistent. This is why the famous map27 trick happened - the exit door is DR RK open-wait-close, but it's DR action 1 from the other side, because who knows, maybe the player wants to explore the map before exiting. And the door is thin enough for the archvile bug. Looks random, but it's actually following Sandy's modus operandi very tightly.

There are exceptions though. Of course, Sandy being the trapmaster, a lot of his doors are completely function-driven, so some maps/rooms will see a lot of close-door linedefs, SR actions, etc... but those are even less of a "door", heh. Then there are exceptions coming out of rushing the job, or at least I think that's what happened. map10 can trap you in the exit room, because it has DR a1 just on the outside (which means it's a half-assed Sandy door). map01 has a symmetric DR a1 door for the secret imp closet instead of one-way D1 - I assume it's meant to be a hideout closet for DM, heh. map12 has a freak accident in the exit room where the outside is DR YK o-w-c and the inside is D1 RK stay. Oopsie! map09 has a rare occasion - the exit area (not the exit room itself) are symmetric DR YK o-w-c! I assume it has something to do with the DM spawn inside the room, even though I'd expect DR a1 at the inside. There's a symmetric D1 BK stay in map24 that probably can be explained by DM spawns as well. Then there's map24 and the double door before the exit door. I have no idea what that's supposed to mean, it's totally superfluous, nonsensical and basically looks like a pointless experiment. :)

So, what does this insanity mean for d2twid? I'll go through all the Sandy-inspired maps, using the e8 public release.


map01: Clean job, good call on the S1 when exiting the BFG area. The secret chainsaw area doublesided SR is so-so, but not unheard of (map12 and map19 have at least one of those).

map07: All doors are perfectly one-sided, heh.

map08: S. 105 (leading to exit area) should be D1 RK stay from the outside, action 1 from the inside (no worries about monster opening it, the door is FAR too thick and there's no sound tunnel to the inside). S. 134 is correctly marked D1 from both sides because of the DM spawn, but s. 80 and 131 should be action 1 from the inside unless you want to call that the map09 exit area case. No worries about thickness either, the doom2 map27 door is 8 units thick while these are 16 units, making them impenetrable for monsters. S. 115 is nicely onesided trap door and everything else is proper Sandy action 1 mirror door.

map09: Good job using D1 on secret closets. Key-locked doors are symmetric though... minding that this is "Tricks n' Traps", the one out of the exit area should be action 1 (16u, safe), the one out of the big lift puzzle could as well be no-action and there can be a S1 open stay or a totally whack W1 open stay... or whatever, even action 1 would do. Just not a symmetric door, haha.

map10: Make both the keyed doors at the exit D1 open stay from the outside and you're set. No functionality needed from the inside. (You actually lock the player in the exit room, cause the inner linedef is flipped, haha. Might keep that as "leave it in".)

map12: S. 45 is symmetric action 1, but it's not justified... go for onesided D1. S. 106 has DM spawns on the inside, so it should either be D1 RK stay and D1 open stay from the inside, or DR RK o-w-c and D1 a1 from the inside (no monster can open it). Make s. 18 D1 BK open stay, the inside should be no-action. Action 1 on the inside COULD trigger monster opening, but since there's no need for an action at all... just keep the door open?

map13: All the proper doors are symmetric a1 (even though some have no monsters on the inside, but technically some could get in)... so that's very much fine. Except s. 147 being symmetric o-w-c fast. That's a Romero tool Petersen never used afaik. It p much calls for a D1 assymeric action there with nothing on the inside.

map15: S. 175 calls for a D1 YK open stay on the outside (l. 1021) and no action on the inside. There's nothing to justify the symmetry. Same thing with s. 186, except I'd go with DR BK o-w-c on the outside and no action on the inside. The room traps you inside anyways, so the door doesn't need an action there. Both exit rooms should be D1 RK open stay from the outside with no action on the inside. The remaining non-switch door is a proper symmetric a1. :)

map16: S. 92 is absolutely a D1 BK stay from the outside, no action from the inside. Same deal with s. 223 except that's RK. Same deal with s. 7 and YK unless you want to do something special with that. There's no DM spawn on the inside and no monsters to abuse it, so p much no action on the inside as well. The regular doors are proper symmetric a1s.

map18: I kinda think s. 71 and s. 95 (both early secrets) should be either S1 or D1 open-stay from the outside with no action on the inside as you can't happen to materialize on the inside. That or SR/DR and trap the player in, lol. No mercy. S. 7 is totally a no action on the inside (instead of BK o-w-s), I don't care if you want to close the door or not. S. 161 should have action 1 from the inside (no worries about monsters, door is thick enough). The rest of your SR doors are probably okay, although Sandy didn't use them that much (like, s.52 doesn't really need it... it could go with D1 and no action on the other side, heh).

map19: Action 117 on s. 101 alert. Calls for a1 instead. S. 19 should be DR a1 from the inside, I don't think it can be abused (thick, no sound exploits). S. 120 is a proper D1 RK open stay, BRAVO! There's even a one-sided DR a1 door at one place, hah. The rest is symmetric a1. This map gets closer to the original than most!

map21 (late marcaek edit): Everything in the map is a proper symmetric a1 door and the exit door is one-sided open stay, gj! If you want to go the extra mile, edit the exit bars to have action only from the outside part, not all around... haha. Yeah, id was lazy to put actions on all the sides.

map24: D1 open stay at exit, marvelous! S. 65, however, should be no action (trap the player in) or DR a1 from the inside (no DM spawn tho, so that's optional). S. 125 should be D1 BK stay from the outside, no action from the inside, imo. That's all, I think.

map25: Pretty good usage of D1 keylocked assymetric doors. A. 123 on s. 34 is questionable, but I dunno, it feels right there. As do the onesided SR actions in the southeastern maze. So all's fine, I guess.

map27: S. 120 has no right to have an action from the inside. S. 125... maybe (although technically, it should be a DR a1 one from the inside), but you could still go with no action and have the DM spawn exit the room via the teleporter until it's opened from the outside. Actually DR a1 could lead to something silly, like using a vile jump at s. 100, firing a rocket at the BK room, waking something up and using it to open the RK door... haha. Well, it's up to you. The rest is trapdoorish or symmetric a1 enough.

map28: The northern room is sound-proof, so s. 217 could be YK D1 from the outside and DR a1 from the inside (so the DM spawn can get out). Same with s. 68. Sector 101 shouldn't be YK D1 from the inside, but you can't use no-action because of the DM spawn that can go there... AND a revenant tends to wander there as well, so a1 would be risky as well. D1 open stay on the inside seems safe though. The rest is glorious symmetric a1.

map30: A. 117 on s. 53 and 41? Tssk. Where's a1?!

map31: All three keylocked doors should be D1 open stay from the outside only, no action on the inside.


And this should be all from me. I'd call this the most OCD post I've ever done, but I've done far worse with hoveritem hunting. Well, it's not like you HAVE TO implement these changes, but you wanted to go for total faithfulness, so here you go - Sandy doors!

Old Post 11-02-13 20:32 #
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rhinoduck
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Posts: 49
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Hey guys, consider using indices instead of lump names in the ANIMDEFS lump if you want d2twid to load in ZDaemon out of the box (the current beta crashes it). Even though the wiki says ...

Although all ANIMDEFS commands allow you to specify textures by lump offset from the base texture it is not recommended to do this. Use real texture names whenever possible as this is more robust and doesn't depend on lump ordering in a WAD. The index method is only maintained for backwards compatibility with Hexen and older ZDoom WADs.

... lump ordering is not an issue in this case as you only need to point to the same lump.

You can just copy-paste this if you decide for the change:
code:
texture ZZKEENL0 pic 0 tics 35 pic 0 tics 35 texture ZZKEENL1 pic 0 tics 35 pic 0 tics 35 texture ZZKEENL2 pic 0 tics 35 pic 0 tics 35 texture ZZKEENL3 pic 0 tics 35 pic 0 tics 35 texture ZZKEENL4 pic 0 tics 35 pic 0 tics 35 texture ZZKEENL5 pic 0 tics 35 pic 0 tics 35 texture ZZKEENL6 pic 0 tics 35 pic 0 tics 35 texture ZZKEENL7 pic 0 tics 35 pic 0 tics 35 texture ZZKEENL8 pic 0 tics 35 pic 0 tics 35 texture ZZKEENLY pic 0 tics 35 pic 0 tics 35

Old Post 11-05-13 19:25 #
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rhinoduck
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I don't know if this would break anything in other ports (someone else will need to elaborate on that) but you can also include this MAPINFO in the old format along with the other two. The proper sky texture and proper music will then be used in map33 in ZDaemon (the rest seem to be stock Doom 2 settings and names are covered by DEHACKED).

If you'll want this in and have an updated ZMAPINFO for the final version (if there will be any changes to it at all), I can then quickly convert it to the old format for you if you drop me a PM or an email.

Old Post 11-05-13 21:03 #
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rhinoduck
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One more thing, although this might be a stupid question or a topic already discussed here, but are those voodoo dolls in map07 when you teleport to the manc area intentional?

Old Post 11-05-13 21:36 #
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Tarnsman
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you're playing an old version, the voodoo dolls were supposed to be DM starts but someone, not going to name any names, who did DM placement, might have fucked that up.

Old Post 11-05-13 22:46 #
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Marcaek
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Which version are you playing, out of curiousity?

Old Post 11-05-13 23:04 #
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Xaser
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Posts: 2530
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Judging from the filename of his ZDaemon-compat MAPINFO file, seems to be _e6, which is the latest version mirrored on the first post of the thread (though it's rather old-ish by now).

@rhinoduck: Thanks for the fixes! MAPINFO-compat was something that slipped by, and we realized midway through a co-op playtest session yesterday that even Zandronum isn't up-to-date enough to use ZMAPINFO... derples. :(

The good news is that versions of ZDoom that do support the ZMAPINFO name will ignore regular MAPINFO if it shows up, so that means it's safe to sneak right into the wad as-is (ditto for the ANIMDEFS -- good catch as well). I suppose it's somewhat redundant, but the new format looks cleaner anyway so I'd be pressed to keep it around when possible if only for that reason. :P

Old Post 11-05-13 23:16 #
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rhinoduck
Green Marine


Posts: 49
Registered: 10-12


Yeah, I have the version linked in the first post (_e6), I didn't really have the time to read through the thread. It was only today that I got around to updating the wad on a server and after I already made the necessary amendments it made sense to post them here.

I know that ZMAPINFO and MAPINFO can coexist but my practical knowledge does not go further than ZDoom and ZDaemon so I did not want to go on a path of wild guesses. ZDaemon ignores ZMAPINFO and ZDoom ignores MAPINFO when ZMAPINFO is present so no harm to these two if both lumps are in a wad; Zandronum and others? No idea here.

The MAPINFO is a minor thing as the lack of it only presents itself in MAP33. The ANIMDEFS issue is a showstopper in ZDaemon though.

Btw, is that mp cyber in map01 staying, lol?

Old Post 11-06-13 00:18 #
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Alfonzo
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rhinoduck said:
Btw, is that mp cyber in map01 staying, lol?
It is not. Just as this thread is not staying open! Avast, ye, and begone!

Old Post 11-07-13 13:51 #
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