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Tormentor667
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Oh yes!

Old Post 02-03-12 19:10 #
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Antroid
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I hope the authors don't emulate doom2's "lots of missed opportunities everywhere and general blandness" style, and try to realize the settings a bit better. Although that wouldn't be a good dtwid. :(
I would totally love to contribute to this, but i am certain to have problems trying to change my mapping style to that of doom2 (which i don't even understand) so i probably won't even try. But still, really looking forward to this!

Old Post 02-04-12 10:29 #
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Memfis
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Here is my first submission:

"Mechanical" for slot #04 - DOWNLOAD (no skill settings)
http://i.imgur.com/TH3tH.jpg

Thoughts?

Last edited by Memfis on 02-04-12 at 18:37

Old Post 02-04-12 15:49 #
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NiGHTMARE
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I'm away from home for the weekend and forgot to bring the Petersen-esque level I'm working on with me, so I did a bit of work on a McGee-style level instead.

The concept behind this is "what if American McGee had made a GRAY-themed level?"


http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/3189/screenshotdoom201202041.th.pnghttp://img810.imageshack.us/img810/3189/screenshotdoom201202041.th.pnghttp://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3189/screenshotdoom201202041.th.png

Old Post 02-04-12 17:36 #
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Alfonzo
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@NiGHTMARE: Top dollar. I'll be keeping an eye on that for sure. American did seem to cling to a select few textures when setting the theme for his maps, so setting out with that in mind will probably help immensely.

@Memfis: I've added the map to the OP, and will review it in depth later on this evening. Whose style are you emmulating here? Or is that for us to figure out? ;)
I've labbeled it as Petersen in the mean time simply on the grounds that that's probably what most submissions are bound to be without looking, but also because playing through it briefly it seemed to me the most likely emmulation, with some American elements thrown in!

Top stuff so far.

Old Post 02-04-12 17:52 #
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Memfis
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I was inspired by indoor maps from the first episode (mainly 02, 04 and 06) but I used more non-orthogonal lines than McGee did. So I guess it is indeed a mix of his and Petersen's styles.
Looking forward to your review. :)

Meanwhile I found and fixed one silly bug. Version 2 - [OLD LINK]

EDIT: okay, now I REALLY fixed it. Version 3 - http://speedy.sh/5YkCF/d2twid-map04mem-version3.zip

Last edited by Memfis on 02-04-12 at 18:42

Old Post 02-04-12 18:04 #
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Alfonzo
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So! Gave it a proper run, and there's a fair bit to talk about here.

One thing that occurred to me after I finished playing the map was that a map that emulates the styles of two authors - a collaboration - also begs the question as to how those styles were implemented and in what sequence, as undeniably there are many ways in which this could happen. Did American create the layout and then abandon the map leaving Sandy to piece everything together? Was it the other way 'round? Or perhaps Sandy proposed an idea to American, who textured a series of rooms only for a dissatisfied sandy to jump in take hold of the reins! How, for this matter, do we suppose Dead Simple came about?

The map feels to me like less a "collaboration" between the two designers and more of a disassociated fusing together of styles to create a map which showcases the different mapping traits of Petersen and Mcgee (in places). This doesn't say anything about how successfully their aspects of design were implemented, of course; just that they don't come together in a way that would indicate the map had "evolved" or progressed between designers in stages. There are certainly a few noticeable traits in here that are worth pointing out and developing, but the first point is the one that I think needs addressing the most!
On to the positives...:

On the American front, there's a rather "interactive" element in the form of a raisable/lowerable floor, a returnable bridge, and one or two instances of bars or lifts that are switch activated rather than manually up front. The Focus (coincidental map slot) features on/off lights and a crusher window, The Crusher features its namesake activated by a modest switch, and The Gantlet features a couple of switches meant for remotely activating nearby objects and tricking the player. The list of examples is considerable, and critically they are often quite trivial or small scale interactions/actions. I think you've got this aspect down pretty well!

The closet traps are pretty McGee as well, with the sergeants behind the corridor window near the start as well as the instance near the exit being good examples.
One thing I think would have helped immensely on a similar front would be focusing more on localized, set piece fire fights/encounters as opposed to (or intermittingly in place of) a more unrelated scattering of monsters seen here. Since this is a map with a pretty compact structure we can't really compare it with maps like map03, 06 or 14, but encounters of the kind seen in maps 02 (red key/blue key/exit points) and 22 (baron>chaingunner trap/first emerging into the outdoor intersection), which features encounters of the sort described mingled in between a distribution of monsters similar to what you've got here, would be great examples to study assuming you're going for a more American than Sandy map.

To me the layout only seems American with it being a linear map featuring one corresponding object/door to each key, and perhaps the way in which the player progresses through the map. Unfortunately I cannot really vouch for it seeming a sandy layout either as the player doesn't really come across any areas that are provided their own concepts and neither does the map demonstrate some sort of overarching concept (examples of the former would be map09 in the context of a more linear map like this one where the player revisits some areas, map21 or map27. Examples of the latter would be map23 and map24).*
The last room is detached enough that it could be either Sandy or American, but isn't committed enough to an idea or orchestrated/arranged enough to be either.

The geometry of the map is clearly bending toward Sandy a lot more, and I think you're on the right track with it so far, but it suffers a similar problem I think as the texturing. Texturing - and visuals in general - take a back seat to conceptualization and fun with sandy, so once again without any real overarching concept to this map it seems odd and rather unlikely that he would commit himself so much to the task of creating such elaborate contrast and variety without a supporting concept.
Megalyth's Passage to Exile works with this sort of combination I think because it accommodates the idea of the merging of worlds. The texturing therefore takes a front seat next to fun/gameplay!
Similarly with geometry, Sandy will only really tend to it where it counts, otherwise mapping out whatever the hell is necessary just so that it allows for the concept he has in mind to come to fruition.

...

Holy text, Scatman! Looks like I've gone overboard.

Overall, I would say that it doesn't convince me of its being an id creation, but it does clearly offer some well honed examples of McGee's mapping traits in particular, which is just as well because its his maps you were aiming to draft ideas from! I think that if you want to continue with this map I would focus entirely on its becoming an American creation - perhaps starting by eliminating some of the non-orthogonal geometry within larger rather than connecting areas - and otherwise try and imagine the map more as a literal "collaboration" instead of the simple merging of observed mapping traits.

Did I say good job? Good show :D

Feel free to disregard everything I say and storm back to the drawing board with your own ideas, if you disagree! :)

* Some maps like map08 and 13 marry the idea of an overarching concept or gimmick with a series of concepts that act independently of each other.

Old Post 02-05-12 01:36 #
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_bruce_
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My first sketch of Map05. Base on original is loose but there - as uploaded to channel dtwid or so(early version - bugs guranteed).
http://speedy.sh/8GX7e/m05v006.wad

http://i.imgur.com/0jeb8.png

http://i.imgur.com/V3xPn.png

http://i.imgur.com/0d0WH.png

http://i.imgur.com/AJJhP.png

Better have a flashlight or tft display at hand...
http://i.imgur.com/TjMYn.png

Last edited by _bruce_ on 02-11-12 at 13:20

Old Post 02-05-12 13:49 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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bruce, those screenies look awesome.

Old Post 02-05-12 17:31 #
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Memfis
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Well, it was fun to make that map, but I'm absolutely not interested in editing it just to meet some stylistic requirements that I don't truly understand. That doesn't sound fun to me. I'd rather use it in some other project then.
I hope other mappers will find your analysis useful/inspiring. Cheers.

Old Post 02-06-12 18:55 #
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Glaice
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Are the contributors gonna use the DTWID site for this project too?

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Old Post 02-07-12 03:28 #
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Capellan
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Reviewing Romero's work on Doom 2 shows an emphasis on catwalks and ledges, with a lot of use of wood, stone and metal textures. Not much of the science fiction trappings of E1, here. Maps 11, 17 and 29 are particularly notable examples, but sections of 20 and 26 also qualify. It's no surprise to see his name on E4M2 & E4M6, which was more of the same style.

Old Post 02-07-12 04:41 #
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zodiac
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Awesome, I missed the first one of these!

Got a few ideas for MAP07, we'll see how this turns out.

http://i.imgur.com/WdIdm.png

Old Post 02-07-12 04:56 #
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valkiriforce
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Hey guys, I know I've already posted this in another topic somewhere, but I felt I might as well post it here anyway.

john01.wad

This was just a quick map I made at one point, nothing too serious. The point of view was that of the possibility of John Romero originally making the first level of Doom II and being dissatisfied with it later on and having it removed. So Sandy Petersen later stepped in to make what would become the MAP01 of Doom II we all recognize. It was just something I did for fun at one point at the possibility of there being a Doom II The Way Id Did. I don't intend on making any changes to the map so anyone can fiddle around with it whether it's acceptable material or not, I just figured I'd post it anyway. I am busy, busy, busy with life so I won't be making any other changes/contributions most likely.

Old Post 02-07-12 08:06 #
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Alfonzo
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_bruce_ said:
On the downside this makes the project extremely demanding... just reading through Alfonzo's report seems like a studying a PhD of multifaceted Doom design rules. Best to just try to keep it simple and fun with some extrapolated character of the original map focused on.
Heh, sorry about that!

I must stress however that these are not rules. They're not even guidelines! I go into this sort of depth so that anyone who is equally as obsessive about the process as myself might take interest in the sorts of points raised. They're there to be ignored as much as they are to be mulled over. Following a rule to keep maps simple and fun could very well net you a better id map than otherwise. Especially if it's Sandy!

@valkiriforce: I'll post it in the OP. It could very well pique interest.


Mr. Chris said:
Are the contributors gonna use the DTWID site for this project too?
We'll be using a project management site, yes, but not the same one I don't think. We got a quick glimpse of the intended site yesterday, I believe, and so far it looks clean and profitable. More details to follow.

Old Post 02-07-12 10:31 #
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ellmo
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st.alfonzo said:
We'll be using a project management site, yes, but not the same one I don't think. We got a quick glimpse of the intended site yesterday, I believe, and so far it looks clean and profitable. More details to follow.

To be precise - We briefly discussed this and we're planning to deploy a clone of the DTWID page to support D2TWID submissions. That is only meant as a placeholder page however, and a "somewhere to go" location on the internet. I for one do believe no project should be left without it's own page, especially not something as cool as DTWID.

I'm working on something bigger tho'. Work and university are a bit overwhelming right now, but I'm trying to get as much done as possible in the free time... but aren't we all? :)

Old Post 02-07-12 15:31 #
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valkiriforce
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st.alfonzo said:
@valkiriforce: I'll post it in the OP. It could very well pique interest.

Thanks, though it's listed as Romero + Petersen when it should just be Romero.

Old Post 02-07-12 17:26 #
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Capellan
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Another aspect of Romero maps in Doom 2 is that they often have a hub and spokes design.

By that I mean that the level has a central area to which you will return several times (sometimes this is also the start area, but not always), and then several independent sub-sections (the 'spokes') that you need to enter and complete, before returning to the hub (perhaps in an area of the hub you could previously see, but not directly access), and moving on to the next subsection.

Old Post 02-07-12 21:57 #
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Jimmy
doesn't rhyme with MIDI :(


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Here's my map - replaces MAP02. WIP name "The Undercurrent".

http://jimmy.phenomer.net/wad-files...rcurrent_v1.wad
Only tested in ZDoom so far. (Whoops.)

Screens:
http://i.imgur.com/52hI9.png
http://i.imgur.com/QGcpT.png
http://i.imgur.com/l1JKI.png
http://i.imgur.com/6WCQX.png
http://i.imgur.com/gmWVb.png

Enjoy! :D

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Old Post 02-08-12 19:01 #
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zodiac
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Consolidating links from the previous threads:

DESIGN PHILOSOPHY:
John Romero (find 'rules romero' in your browser)
Sandy Petersen
American McGee

- some discussion on the forums here

DOOM 2-wise, I've noticed a few quirks not mentioned above

Romero always starts you out in a tight spot with limited resources. It makes a pistol start really tense, and bleeds off your stock from the previous level if not. Get past that and there's plenty of powerups guarded by a tactical mix of monsters.

Petersen uses hordes of enemies, usually in big single-type blocks. Tricks and Traps makes his view on this abundantly clear. The actual 'tricks' usually come in between these firefights. With Romero, you duck into a secret because you need the ammo; with Petersen you do it after killing everything in sight.

In addition to his small, connected levels, McGee was meticulous on enemy placement. It's not nonstop action like Romero, but when the hammer drops you're facing a finely-honed killing machine. The layouts feel more similar to Plutonia than the other D2 maps.

Old Post 02-09-12 05:50 #
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Hellbent
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Not sure why Jimmy1 didn't get any feedback on his map. I really liked it. I thought the layout and detailing were done very well. The gameplay was fine, too. I didn't like the long rectangle lighting in the square dark room, but this is really a minor personal taste nitpick. I would probably get used it in time. I didn't really like the imps floating in the ssg room--probably better off removing them and putting them in a more traditional position (maybe indented holes in the wall behind bars--I think doing this is an oft used motif--not a cliche).

The opening room of the level was very nice. A great level opener in my mind. It immediately put me in a good mood and in a mind to go forward. The only thing is it is immediately recognizable as a nod to map02 (as is the name of your level). I'm thinking these two things alone are probably the reason no one has given you any feedback on your level, but I could be wrong.

I really liked the red key-get room. It somehow complemented the rest of the map very nicely. Maybe have a secret door on the second chaingunner shelf? (or could that be too reminiscent of the super secret on map06?) Maybe have only the green armor pillar lower and then the red key pillar lower when you grab the green armor?

I really liked the exit room with the box of rocket shelf. Like all the rooms in the whole map, the scale is perfect. What I didn't like, tho, is the way you get to the shelf. It just was not a very satisfying way to solve the problem of getting up on the shelf. :( Debatable whether it was any better than having a teleport. How about maybe a small pillar (would fit the motif of the green armor and red key pillars earlier) that rises so that you can jump across? Not sure if that is a good suggestion, either, tho. I recommend you find a solution that is a little better tho!

I played your map after beating map01. It was great having two rockets to clear groups of splatterable monsters behind bars or on ledges. A rocket here and there in the level would be GREAT--and would be a very nice alternative to the low shotgun shell scenario over the played out berskerk pack (which I strongly suggest you replace with a medkit), but keep the chainsaw for now.

The soul sphere room was really nice--very well implemented the way it connects to the ssg room.

Overall great job!

Old Post 02-09-12 18:22 #
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esselfortium
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FWIW Jimmy has gotten a bunch of feedback on his level on IRC; there just wasn't a lot of point in repeating all of it here.

Old Post 02-09-12 19:05 #
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Jimmy
doesn't rhyme with MIDI :(


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Yep, and I need to put all of it into a text file and resubmit the map per the feedback. :)

Thanks a bunch Hellbent! Glad you like it overall. There was some talk on IRC that it was too faithful to the original MAP02, which you talked about as well. I might retexture a few of the rooms of the map to make it slightly more original - I'll add some more BIGBRIK, maybe some STONE and ROCK. I really like the overall theme of MAP02, though, so I'll try and preserve at least a few of the existing thematic similarities.

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Old Post 02-10-12 08:27 #
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C30N9
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Wow. I have really missed so much things at Doomworld! What's next? The release of "Interception"? :P

Anyway, good luck with the project. The idea is cool already. (I might be a little late about posting)

Old Post 02-10-12 15:18 #
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Jimmy
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Okay, new version of The Undercurrent. This should hopefully address all the concerns that were raised about it. :)

http://speedy.sh/pCuQ8/d2twid-theundercurrent-v2.wad

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Old Post 02-13-12 06:18 #
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pcorf
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I'll join and make MAP31.

Old Post 02-13-12 11:28 #
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bimlanders
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I was thinking that the Wolf levels should be Commander Keen 3D levels instead. That would be hilarious and awesome! Great job on DTWID, and I can't wait for the sequel (please don't take 14 months!) After this we need UDTWID, and possibly HTWRD.

Old Post 02-15-12 15:40 #
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Xaser
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I guess we're "breaking character" of the project a bit with the secret maps, but a few of us are definitely thinking that Keen is the way to go. Not sure how best to go about doing it, though I do have a specific idea in mind for MAP32 that I want to try. :P

Old Post 02-15-12 19:52 #
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Tormentor667
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Xaser said:
I guess we're "breaking character" of the project a bit with the secret maps, but a few of us are definitely thinking that Keen is the way to go. Not sure how best to go about doing it, though I do have a specific idea in mind for MAP32 that I want to try. :P

Fully agreed, it feels right to go for that.

Old Post 02-15-12 21:48 #
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ellmo
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The submission page is finally up.

For now not only does it operate exactly like the first one, but it looks the same too. The color scheme however will change in the next few hours.

Report any and all bugs to me via PM, email, or via IRC (http://d2twid.herokuapp.com/contact) - please don't pollute this forum with posts about the page.

Old Post 02-18-12 09:46 #
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