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Marnetmar
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TimeOfDeath said:
To get attention? Well, it worked! You even got John Romero to post in your thread. I thought the goal was to create the "lost levels" from the original Doom, but why would those lost levels contain many "homages" from the original levels like dtwid does? It's just another Doom megawad that follows the exact same format as the original.


Dude, I wasn't talking to you, and the person I was talking to was on an entirely different subject. Plus if you think this is just another megawad, why don't you try designing some levels for it then?

Old Post 03-02-12 00:17 #
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ellmo
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TimeOfDeath said:
e3m9 = e3m6 clone
It was a team favourite among "specific" levels, we all knew it was heavilly based on e3m6, but we let it go as a secret map.


TimeOfDeath said:
e3m1 start room was a clone of e3m1 start room
Yes it is similar, but a clone?


TimeOfDeath said:
e1m8 e2m8 e3m8 were "boss" levels
Did you expect anything else in last maps in a Doom megawad that tries to imitate Doom's look-and-feel?


TimeOfDeath said:
(...)I had criticisms, like only 1 cyberdemon in 27 maps. Not cool.
It's a boss. At least he was in Doom.

Old Post 03-02-12 00:18 #
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Hellbent
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TimeOfDeath said:
off the top of my head:
e1m8 e2m8 e3m8 were "boss" levels

?

Old Post 03-02-12 00:19 #
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TimeOfDeath
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Marnetmar - I don't think I would fit in this project at all.

ellmo - it was one of my favs too, but it was obviously inspired by e3m6, so I mentioned it. e3m1 start was obviously inspired by e3m1 start as well. The cyber might be a boss, but why must he only appear in one map? There was a part in one of the maps with a bfg on a pillar outside in some water in a secret area, when I managed to enter that area I thought it was the perfect spot for a cyber to teleport in after getting bfg, but nothing.

Hellbent - e1m8, after killing barons, floor lowers, you walk through teleport into pitch black damaging sector with monsters around you, exactly like original map. e2m8, you fight a cyber and lost souls, exactly like original map. e3m8, you fight one mastermind, exactly like original map.

Edit: Also, the dtwid txt file says these maps were supposed to be lost levels that id made. Maybe id made some harder maps but chose not to include them because they're too hard and had boss monsters or something?

Old Post 03-02-12 00:45 #
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Marcaek
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floor lowers, you walk through teleport into pitch black damaging sector with monsters around you, exactly like original map. e2m8, you fight a cyber and lost souls, exactly like original map. e3m8, you fight one mastermind, exactly like original map.


In pre-ultimate Doom, killing one Boss class monster on E2M8 and E3M8 ends the level. The fact that this behavior is hardcoded leads to some design constraints. I'll give you the E1M8-exit floor room, but it's not that big of a deal regardless.

Regarding cybers, there were only 2 of them in pre-ultimate Doom anyway. It'll hopefully be rectified if there's ever an Ultimate DTWID.

Old Post 03-02-12 00:47 #
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Xaser
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There were some intentional departures from the "10th map" guideline, particularly in the start and end maps.

Regarding the homage issue, plenty of care was taken to get rid of map-specific references and things, so it certainly isn't due to lack of effort. It's just not really possible to produce a project in this vein without some areas feeling "too close for comfort" (e.g. homage-y) to some. The fact that Lake of Fire is so often seen as an E3M6 clone despite having a completely different layout/progression style is somewhat proof of that fact, IMO.

Still, feel free to point out any parts you thought were too similar to IWAD maps. It'll maybe help a bit for this next one. ;)

Old Post 03-02-12 03:11 #
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C30N9
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I just knew that E3M9 is included, and because it's liked even tho the homages it got. I must tell, worst mistake done for the project, AGAIN! And the secret map issue is not an excuse. I said "again" because the alpha wad did include a map with the same issue.

Another thing is that I noticed the music goes on like the same it went in the original game. E.g. E2M3 soundtrack is the same as the intermission. E1M6 = E3M6. Why?! The music should be picked as going through the maps, as Romero did. Correct me if I'm wrong here, I haven't accessed the wad lately.

However, it's impossible to create a fully not custom map looking. So inspirations are welcome in a very low rate, but not homages.

Old Post 03-02-12 09:07 #
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ellmo
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C30N9 said:
Another thing is that I noticed the music goes on like the same it went in the original game. E.g. E2M3 soundtrack is the same as the intermission. E1M6 = E3M6. Why?! The music should be picked as going through the maps, as Romero did.

I'm not even sure you can change the order of music in vanilla Doom.
As for the boss fights - they were intentionally left the way they are, similar to the original ones. Technical limitations were only partially responsible for this, the other part is the fact that anything else than "beating the big badasses" and then going to hell on E1M8, slaying "the hideous cyber-demon lord that ruled the lost deimos moon base" on E2M8 and killing the "loathsome Spiderdemon that masterminded the invasion" on E3M8 would be completely anticlimactic, and "NOT the way id did."



...BTW this is a topic on D2TWiD. The development of the first part has finished and I don't recall this issue being raised during a year of work. I'd even go as far as to say: you guys are nitpicking :)

Old Post 03-02-12 10:06 #
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hex11
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You can change music order with the DeHackEd "text editor". This makes E2M1 music play on E1M1:
code:
Patch File for DeHackEd v3.0 Doom version = 21 Patch format = 6 Text 4 4 e1m1e2m1

Old Post 03-02-12 11:39 #
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TimeOfDeath
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I just think it's another megawad with inspiration from the original levels and tries to be an iwad clone. I think the "the way id did" is an unnecessary attention grabber. I liked the levels and rated it 5 on /idgames anyway.

Old Post 03-02-12 16:49 #
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C30N9
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TimeOfDeath said:
I just think it's another megawad with inspiration from the original levels and tries to be an iwad clone.


You clearly defined the project... without "another".

Last edited by C30N9 on 03-02-12 at 19:27

Old Post 03-02-12 17:18 #
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Marcaek
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I've started a few maps for this, why not.

Old Post 03-03-12 00:44 #
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Csonicgo


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TimeOfDeath said:
To get attention? Well, it worked! You even got John Romero to post in your thread. I thought the goal was to create the "lost levels" from the original Doom, but why would those lost levels contain many "homages" from the original levels like dtwid does? It's just another Doom megawad that follows the exact same format as the original.


You seem to be angry. Can't you go back to Drown in Blood and show us how to really make doom wads?

All personal attacks aside, please calm the f down. you seem to be angry that this wad's intent is... what it is. I don't get why that's a problem for you. Please explain. It'd really help to clear this up.

Old Post 03-03-12 00:56 #
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TimeOfDeath
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lols, the drown in blood comment was funny, I admit.
Don't worry, I rated it 5 on /idgames because that's what really matters.

Old Post 03-03-12 03:27 #
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purist
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I really want to get a map in this project. Here's a first draft of my first attempt:

Radar Base

Here's a screenshot to try and persuade you to play:

http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/ww137/ChrisBourke/th_doom05.jpg

No difficuly or multiplayer settings included yet. There's some more info on my D2TWiD submission page. Enjoy!

Old Post 03-03-12 14:34 #
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C30N9
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@TimeOfDeath: I assume you mean it's impossible to create perfect TWID maps.

Old Post 03-03-12 14:51 #
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Marnetmar
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Still not much to see, but Dammit has been updated

Old Post 03-04-12 21:32 #
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40oz
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I know I can expect to have my posts thrown under a bus for this but I'm gonna go ahead and say that I really think some mappers can get a lot of inspiration from Chris Klie's THUD! series (found in Maximum Doom, and a compiled version found here: http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=1248)

Not so much in the looks but the solid designs. There's a lot of interesting Doom puzzles that take place in levels that look like an industrial techbase, or a cave or castle of some sort, but are unrealistically strange

There's a very diverse use of switches, shoot switches, stairbuilding, catwalk navigating, mazes, falling hazards, jumps, lifts and windows. The puzzles found in many of the maps require enough forethought to keep players thinking just enough to not be bored of how quickly the map can be completed, but not too much to make everything suicidishly tantalizing. Almost like the difficulty of cracking a Rubik's cube or filling out a sudoku sheet.

There's very clever usage of height differences to elevate desired items such as weapons, keys, or exits so that they are JUST BARELY out of your reach. also some deadly traps and obstacles such as crushers and mild platform jumping.

Chris Klie's mapping obviously isn't clearly the way id did, but it puts a lot of emphasis on a particular aspect of the IWAD maps that helps them to feel as abstract as they really are. I'd hate to see very little of it in this particular project.

Old Post 03-04-12 21:56 #
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Alfonzo
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@40oz: Cool stuff, thanks for the link!

Yeah, it's worth noting that there's a heck of a lot of design traits within wads of that era that better (and best!) reflect the Doom II design philosophy. But also worth noting is that the sort of gameplay and design that these wads provide offer an alternative way to help develop ideas for contributors: I think many people so far have placed greater interest simply in trying to achieve the Doom II feel for their map without committing explicitly to one designer or the other, and digging in to the THUD! series as well as others from that era can help assist with the mapping process in ways that are inspirational rather than meticulous. For those who aren't interested in studying in depth the ways in which Sandy or American used transitional textures and so on, this is worth looking in to.

Plunge neck-deep into 1994, gentlemen. Dive! And don't come up for air until you're ready to make waves!

Old Post 03-04-12 22:25 #
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Use3D
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40oz said:
I know I can expect to have my posts thrown under a bus for this but I'm gonna go ahead and say that I really think some mappers can get a lot of inspiration from Chris Klie's THUD! series ...


Under the bus? Whyever for? Chris Klie is awesome.

Old Post 03-04-12 22:44 #
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TimeOfDeath
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Marcaek said:
In pre-ultimate Doom, killing one Boss class monster on E2M8 and E3M8 ends the level. The fact that this behavior is hardcoded leads to some design constraints.
Is this true? I couldn't find any info on that. I tested with prboom-plus -complevel 2 (supposed to emulate original doom.exe and doom2.exe) and the level didn't exit until all boss monsters of one type were dead (multiple cybers = level exits when they're all dead).

Old Post 03-05-12 04:18 #
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Marcaek
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TimeOfDeath said:
Is this true? I couldn't find any info on that. I tested with prboom-plus -complevel 2 (supposed to emulate original doom.exe and doom2.exe) and the level didn't exit until all boss monsters of one type were dead (multiple cybers = level exits when they're all dead).


I was mistaken, killing all of one type of boss monster ends the level:


Using Doom v1.9 (or earlier) for the registered version, killing any and all cyberdemons in E3M8 or all spiderdemons in E2M8 will trigger the exit. In Doom for the Ultimate DOOM, this was modified so that the game exits only by killing the type of boss used in the original id levels. It's not a bug in the level, just what happens if you use the pre-ultimate v1.9 of Doom, -complevel 2 in PrBoom/+ (instead of -complevel 3) or -gameversion 1.9 (instead of the default ultimate, unless you're using the older registered IWAD) in Chocolate. This quirk also affects E1M8, but using the baron trigger for any boss type, possibly more than once, such as in UAC Dead.

Old Post 03-05-12 04:26 #
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ellmo
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TimeOfDeath said:
Is this true? I couldn't find any info on that. I tested with prboom-plus -complevel 2 (supposed to emulate original doom.exe and doom2.exe) and the level didn't exit until all boss monsters of one type were dead (multiple cybers = level exits when they're all dead).

I hope you're not suggesting DTWiD should have a spare boss in a dummy sector for E2M8 and E3M8 just to allow the player to have a boss fight, but actually exit the level via a switch just to be non-homagey :/

Old Post 03-05-12 11:49 #
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pcorf
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A new map I have been working on replacing MAP08 is almost done and will be submitted sometime this week.

Old Post 03-05-12 14:52 #
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TimeOfDeath
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ellmo - I just played Base Ganymede and it had multiple bosses for the boss levels, so I thought I'd double check.

Old Post 03-05-12 17:51 #
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pcorf
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My latest submission - http://d2twid.herokuapp.com/submissions/19

Old Post 03-06-12 15:14 #
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Marcaek
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Man, that looks excellent.

Old Post 03-06-12 16:05 #
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pcorf
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Marcaek said:
Man, that looks excellent.


Oh, really. Thanks.

I decided to move it to MAP09. The map is a mixture of Doom 2's base themes with a medium difficulty but plenty of tougher monsters, not just Zombiemen and Imps. Near the end as a challenging fight with Spiders including a Mastermind. You have to be careful because its a hitscanner that causes huge damage. You are given a plasma gun but the Spider can cause you great damage so be careful.

The style of the level is mainly a mix of American McGee and Sandy Peterson with a little bit of Romero here and there. Many textures are not aligned.

There are 7 secrets in the map and you should find most of the secrets.

Old Post 03-06-12 17:08 #
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Marcaek
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Well, my 2 simple little maps are close to done, just need to do some minor but crucial modifications.

Old Post 03-06-12 20:18 #
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ellmo
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I'll most probably play through all the submited maps and give feedback on every single each one of them tonight. Stay tuned!

I've also started my own map, first one for d2twid, named "Projects"

Old Post 03-07-12 12:42 #
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