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Hellbent
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My first submission for this project. Map12 replacement. Does not work in chocolate doom atm, I'm afraid :-/ so please play with zdoom or something similar. In order to provide better feedback, play with actors infinitely tall.

Direct Download

More screens and info: http://d2twid.herokuapp.com/submissions/21

Spoiler:
They have come.


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ok_F-iXNdR4/T1e3xppoRfI/AAAAAAAACIM/3s_veXntG1A/s640/Screenshot_Doom_20120303_201213.png

Look forward to your feedback.

Last edited by Hellbent on 03-08-12 at 14:29

Old Post 03-08-12 04:43 #
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C30N9
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^ A must have.
Will check it deeper soon.

Old Post 03-08-12 08:45 #
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Vermil
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If Maps 31 and 32 in Doom2 were homage’s by ID to their own classic games.

Maybe Maps31 and 32 in D2TWID, could be homage’s to some of the most iconic early pwads.

AlienTC, Dead Base, that sort of thing.

Of course, the difficulty is deciding on what is suitably iconic and how to make them something more than just taking the original map as is.

Last edited by Vermil on 03-08-12 at 12:29

Old Post 03-08-12 12:23 #
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_bruce_
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40oz said:
I know I can expect to have my posts thrown under a bus for this but I'm gonna go ahead and say that I really think some mappers can get a lot of inspiration from Chris Klie's THUD! series (found in Maximum Doom, and a compiled version found here: http://www.doomworld.com/idgames/index.php?id=1248)

Not so much in the looks but the solid designs. There's a lot of interesting Doom puzzles that take place in levels that look like an industrial techbase, or a cave or castle of some sort, but are unrealistically strange

There's a very diverse use of switches, shoot switches, stairbuilding, catwalk navigating, mazes, falling hazards, jumps, lifts and windows. The puzzles found in many of the maps require enough forethought to keep players thinking just enough to not be bored of how quickly the map can be completed, but not too much to make everything suicidishly tantalizing. Almost like the difficulty of cracking a Rubik's cube or filling out a sudoku sheet.

There's very clever usage of height differences to elevate desired items such as weapons, keys, or exits so that they are JUST BARELY out of your reach. also some deadly traps and obstacles such as crushers and mild platform jumping.

Chris Klie's mapping obviously isn't clearly the way id did, but it puts a lot of emphasis on a particular aspect of the IWAD maps that helps them to feel as abstract as they really are. I'd hate to see very little of it in this particular project.



Totally agree.
Played the first map and it has a distinct feel of being there for a purpose and playful. The roundish look is arse but other than that it has very minimalistic but beautifully compact architecture.
It's hard to describe but often when you play pwads they tend to feel empty, numb and dogmatic.
Will have to play through the megawad and then go back to my own maps to re-evaluate if there's "game" in them.

Old Post 03-08-12 13:16 #
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pcorf
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Vermil said:
If Maps 31 and 32 in Doom2 were homage’s by ID to their own classic games.

Maybe Maps31 and 32 in D2TWID, could be homage’s to some of the most iconic early pwads.

AlienTC, Dead Base, that sort of thing.

Of course, the difficulty is deciding on what is suitably iconic and how to make them something more than just taking the original map as is.



I think we have to follow Doom 2's plan and have new Wolfenstein levels. We'll see when the project is released.

Old Post 03-08-12 13:57 #
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ellmo
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_bruce_ said:
(...) Will have to play through the megawad and then go back to my own maps to re-evaluate if there's "game" in them.


You won't see many of the original DTWiD authors commenting on this but none would disagree. It's an issue we've run into when we made the first megawad and we know it cannot really be remedied when maps are initially made.
There are and will be some exceptions. Most of the time however the maps are "promising enough", but are not perfect (of course perfect is completely subjective here) in any way. These maps will be discussed, worked on, revamped, modified and whatever else it takes to fit them into the general idea of what this megawad should be. Some maps get worse in the process and fall out of the equation, other are simply getting better.

From my personal experience:

One of my most cherished maps in DTWiD, "Rend of Misery" was first described as being much to homage-y. I tried to fix it, but I reached a point where I didn't think I could do anything to help it. Anything I did was making it worse. The map was removed from the pool, to my dismay :( but it was a good decision. Even in my opinion I've reached the limit in it's potential. I've used it all up and it ended being sub-par.

On the other hand we had the original "City of Corpses", which, to some of us, was one of the most interesting maps atmosphere and layout wise. I still think this map is one of the two most original, among the most authentic ones in the pack (second one would be Alfonzo's "Foundry", or whatever he ended up naming it). But initially it just didn't play great. Gameplay felt random, confusing. Because we were still missing "true" E3 maps a this point, we all decided it would only be fair, to try and modify this "extremely promising map" (my personal opinion on Walter's original work).

I guess what I'm saying is:
We would have to have at least 20-something playbale maps, to see where is it all going, how's the difficulty and progression project-wise. What type (theme, if you will) of maps should we focus from now on, is there any specific theme, that is missing some entries?

Old Post 03-08-12 17:01 #
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Alfonzo
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Attention d2twid enthusiasts. I have a little favour to ask of those who have yet to play my map30 currently titled "Hell On Earth," and who are still keen to do so:

At least 5 of the people I've spoken to about my map after they had played it told me that they couldn't figure out how to beat it, either begging an explanation or giving up entirely. While I have remedied the situation as best I can in keeping with the Sandy design I'm not entirely certain the problem is solved. Could any number of you fine people give this map a run through and provide me with a little feedback on how easy it is to figure out, and perhaps offer a few suggestions in the mean time?

Of course, and as Xaser points out on the submissions site, it is a map30, and so if there's ever a time to be confused it's here. But I think some moderation is probably still in order.

http://d2twid.herokuapp.com/submissions/10

Old Post 03-09-12 21:34 #
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dew
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alfons, i hope you realize that after you make your map super awesome and whatnot, you'll need to scale it down to shitty-simplistic-facepalm-crap to keep it within doom2 legacy. sorry!

Old Post 03-09-12 22:32 #
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Hellbent
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Your post is very timely as I just beat your map! Man-o-man that is some CLEVER shit! I was floored when it dawned on me what was needed; absolutely floored. It is one of the most brilliant design implementation I have ever seen in Doom. And the whole execution of your map is classic in the way you confuse the player about how to solve the problem. This is sheer genius. Granted I had picked up some clues here and there in IRC but I'm not sure I would have figured out doom 2s map30 either. I definitely don't think you should give people the answer and you should really abstain from giving hints. As far as the actual execution once you figure out what is needed, I think it's very comparable to the original; certainly not harder. Your level does not need to get any easier. Is it too difficult to figure out? I think it's too brilliantly clever for the answer to be yes. I think you should leave the level alone and keep encouraging people to not give up; don't help them!

(wow, I beat par). 2:43, 59% kills, 33% items 0% secrets.

I have always been a bit disappointed that thematically your level is so similar to Icon of Sin; but given how great this design is, I can let that grievance go for now. :p

Top work, man. I'm very impressed. It was really cool how it dawned on me what was needed; but I won't say how it happened!

EDIT: I just beat it again without saving in zoom compatibility set to doom strict and using keyboard; more fun, more satisfying and easier than icon of sin; all pluses in my book :) 51% kills, 33% items, 3:05 time.

Last edited by Hellbent on 03-09-12 at 23:03

Old Post 03-09-12 22:40 #
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Alfonzo
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dew said:
alfons, i hope you realize that after you make your map super awesome and whatnot, you'll need to scale it down to shitty-simplistic-facepalm-crap to keep it within doom2 legacy. sorry!
Duly noted. As it so happens, I have several trucks filled to the brim with excrement standing by. They move on my command.

@Hellbent: Flattered. Thanks! I think the most I might do, provided there is an outcry of some sort, is to give further clues to those players inent on looking, rather than expecting the map to "finish itself", so to speak. But I do agree that there is a certain triumph factor in figuring it out that could well be diminished if it were made any more obvious.

Old Post 03-09-12 22:58 #
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Razen
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I agree with HellBent, I think the concept of the map was really cool. Took me a bit to figure out but once I understood it totally clicked.

Old Post 03-09-12 23:43 #
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ellmo
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<promotion target="self">
There only be some screenshots as map is not downloadable, but I'm working on it!
http://d2twid.herokuapp.com/submissions/22
http://i.imgur.com/Wbx1c.png
http://i.imgur.com/P9lcT.png
http://i.imgur.com/AduuM.png
http://i.imgur.com/DZ2RZ.png

</promotion>

Old Post 03-10-12 01:10 #
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Hellbent
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st.alfonzo said:

@Hellbent: Flattered. Thanks! I think the most I might do, provided there is an outcry of some sort, is to give further clues to those players inent on looking, rather than expecting the map to "finish itself", so to speak. But I do agree that there is a certain triumph factor in figuring it out that could well be diminished if it were made any more obvious.

there really is; naysayers be damned; it's not that hard to figure out; just insanely clever. :)

EDIT: Holy batman, outstanding shots Ellmo! My modwalls have been upstaged :(

Last edited by Hellbent on 03-10-12 at 01:36

Old Post 03-10-12 01:27 #
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Marnetmar
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http://i.imgur.com/60bxw.png

Old Post 03-10-12 01:57 #
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pcorf
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I have started work on a new map inspired by the Inmost Dens.

Old Post 03-10-12 09:12 #
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Vermil
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pcorf said:


I think we have to follow Doom 2's plan and have new Wolfenstein levels. We'll see when the project is released.



I always thought an important part of Maps 31 and 32 wasn't just that they were maps textured with Wolf3D textures, but that they were near perfect copies of actual Wolf3D maps.

Last edited by Vermil on 03-10-12 at 09:46

Old Post 03-10-12 09:26 #
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pcorf
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My level "The Infested Hideout" has been removed from the D2TWID page because it was too hard for me to completely change areas and will detail it up and release it as a stand alone map. As I said I am now working on another new map for D2TWID and I can only try my best to match it to the originals.

Old Post 03-10-12 11:48 #
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Marcaek
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Almost ready to upload my 2 maps. My goodness has testing been tedious.

Also, very impressive ellmo. That's how you make a real city map. :)

Old Post 03-12-12 03:49 #
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Marcaek
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And they're up:

http://d2twid.herokuapp.com/submissions/24

http://d2twid.herokuapp.com/submissions/25

I'm thinking about
Spoiler:
moving some of the Revenants in the red key activated door to a monster closet behind the teleporter, or doing the same but swapping them for a horde of weaker monsters. It might be a bit too much ATM.

Old Post 03-12-12 15:49 #
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Alfonzo
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Thanks to those who gave my map30 a run and provided me their thoughts (via PM), and particularly to zodiac who seems to be on something of a feedback spree over at the submissions site. A couple of individuals have found it a little difficult to figure out how to beat this beastie and so I've opened up a key part of the map to make the objective stand out a little more, but otherwise I've left it mostly as is. A couple of minor tweaks have been made to the difficulty settings as well.

In other news, my map04 has also been gifted with difficulty settings. What fun!

http://d2twid.herokuapp.com/submissions/10
http://d2twid.herokuapp.com/submissions/13

@Marcaek: I've played through both maps, and I'll have to find the time to comment on them in detail at some point in the near future. On the face of it it must be said the spirit of Doom II is there, and of course there are plenty of months to dabble with so I wouldn't be too offput by any criticisms regarding their authenticity.

Old Post 03-14-12 22:22 #
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ellmo
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I wonder how many people LIKE THIS: http://www.facebook.com/D2twid

Old Post 03-16-12 17:03 #
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Marcaek
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Somebody make a Shawn Green style base or city map. I'd personally like to see what comes of it, and it'd mix things up , potentially in a good way.

Old Post 03-22-12 06:40 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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st.alfonzo said:


Level 30 Icon of Sin fight




At first I was all *What... The pillar... can't... rockets not...*

But then I was all like *BEST. ICON. FIGHT. EVER.*


The only comment I would make is to make the floor of sector 25 a teleport flat perhaps?

But otherwise, awesome stuff.


Also, Ellmo, great city shots. :)

Old Post 03-22-12 11:38 #
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Hellbent
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:
At first I was all *What... The pillar... can't... rockets not...*

But then I was all like *BEST. ICON. FIGHT. EVER.*


Also, Ellmo, great city shots. :)

Old Post 03-23-12 01:13 #
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Marnetmar
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http://i.imgur.com/t04oF.jpg

Old Post 03-23-12 01:20 #
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Marcaek
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I like the stony aesthetic you've got going there, would like to see what you're doing with that area in the top corner as well.

On a related note I've updated both of my maps.

Old Post 03-23-12 05:57 #
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C30N9
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Marnetmar said:
http://i.imgur.com/t04oF.jpg


Best. Screenshot. EVER.

Old Post 03-23-12 11:47 #
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zodiac
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At long last my Map 07 is done! And not your McGee Map07, this one's pure Romero. Behold, Infestation!

http://i.imgur.com/WdIdm.png
http://i.imgur.com/W9Kts.png
http://i.imgur.com/D1CPy.png
http://i.imgur.com/0JIxZ.png

Ep.1 really looks solid. After all the playthroughs I've been doing, I'd like to propose something. I think it gives a good difficulty ramp while also maintaining some map-to-map continuity that builds the player's sense of progress.

MAP03 - Radar Base by Purist - An introduction to the chaingunner for dramatic effect, it has a great progression down into the complex and a good difficulty for the slot.
MAP04 - The Undercurrent by jimmy91 - Design-wise this needs to go after Radar Base, since this map uses chaingunners more liberally. This also gives a sense of progression, diving down into the slime and ending up in a slimy/watery tunnel area, leading us to...
MAP05 - Water Main by esselfortium - a map we must have, it really captures the McGee style. Slot wise I really like how this works - you go through water tunnels in Undercurrent to reach the main plant here, which ends with a rise upwards that continues at the start of the Siltyards.
MAP06 - The Siltyards by Alfonzo - The difficulty reminded me of the Crusher, and I designed my Map07 start to give a sense of continuity here. It teaches Revenants, melee, and jumping quite explicitly, good to have fresh on the mind for Infestation. It's also a very cool map, worth locking now IMO.
MAP07 - Infestation by zodiac (me =) - The idea is for you to feel the pressure of the aliens corrupting the starport - you actually see it as you go! Hopefully a little flair here hammers home the intermission. I await your judgment ;)

Old Post 03-25-12 07:22 #
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purist
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It's flattering of you to put my map amongst those others by such respected authors Zodiac. I am in the middle of V2 of Radar Base. Please will you check your PM as I need you to elaborate on one of your points.

At somepoint hopefully soon I will playtest your MAP07 to return the favour. I have an idea for a MAP11 too. I'll maybe start on that in a week or so.

Old Post 03-25-12 16:12 #
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Hellbent
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@zodiac: aside from _tenements_ and _perfect hatred_ I totally dug your map! Maybe put 4 sg shells after first secret lift and an ammo clip on imp ledge where the two health potions are.

Slightly bad dynamics to have the three HKs come at you when you come down the cg-bob lift at the beginning of the map, but I suppose it's okay. I haven't completed the map, yet--echoes of tenements and perfect hatred left me a bit cold (even though the tenements room is real nice and classic feeling--maybe just switch up the texturing?)

Old Post 03-25-12 17:23 #
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