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ptoing
Junior Member


Posts: 142
Registered: 06-02



LightningBolt101 said:
Running in TNT would fix the nasty checkerboard texture issue in the Cyberdemon room, but I can fix the HoM by easily just adding another fence texture, I'm sure.


No, the problem is that you are doing the sky border effect wrong. I made an edit for you to show you how to properly fix it http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15588722/po...cility_edit.wad


And yes, I like ZDoom better really for one reason: the scripting. I'm not sure how to script in Vanilla Doom, and I know Boom is capable of adding some cool features (which I believe TNT utilized), but ZDoom is just scripter friendly and makes my job much easier.[QUOTE]

"Scripting" in Vanilla is made with very hacky fudgejobs. In Boom you can script using Voodoo doll setups and conveyors, which is actually quite powerful. None of the Boom features were used in TNT or Plutonia tho.

[quote]Someone told me Doom players like being surrounded, which helps me a lot. It gives me an idea of what's up (which makes me figure the Baron trap is probably most liked right now is it's very tricky).


You think "tricky" is the right word here? Try frustrating and unfair. Being surrounded is one thing, but being on a 64 units wide platform, very close to instant death, with 4 of the highest health enemies in each corner, having to kill them with an inaccurate weapon, is NOT FUN. Even slaughtermaps like Sunder do not pull unfair stuff like this. They are just hard, but when I die I feel like it was my fault.


Also, I have a reason for making it so you can't jump on the Baron platforms. I was afraid the player might accidentally knock them off as this would have happened a couple times if not for the impassible lines. I'll just set it to block monsters instead (given I have no idea why I didn't think of that earlier).


If you make impassible lines like that where you do not want the player to go then give the player a visual clue that he can not jump on there. Such as metal bar midtextures.

In general visual clues are a million times better than hint systems. I would venture a guess that a lot of people who like Doom are fed up with the hand holding shenanigans of many modern games. So why would you want to introduce that here?

Old Post 02-07-12 12:48 #
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LightningBolt101
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I was thinking of it, and I could probably think of a way to easily implement that through scripting (something I love about ZDoom format), so when I recreate the map I'll go off that.

Also, the grenade launcher is avoidable. Obviously you jumped over the gap, which means you can easily just avoid it. It's not like the next room cannot be done with a shotgun and a chaingun (I've actually changed it so you get the double barrel shotgun earlier now, making the grenade launcher almost pointless).

I believe TNT utilized Boom features. Unless I'm wrong, just look at the final level of TNT (hated that beginning when I was little).

The hints are just there to aid ATM so players won't get lost as much. It's no where near complete, and it won't be for awhile given the announcement I have to post after this reply. I plan on having the notes be dialogue more than hints after the completion of the map. I think a camera effect for obscure changes would be much more effective.

As for the Baron trap, it's no longer even working since the removal of the TNT textures. I've fixed the HoM effect as the reason it was even slightly lowered before was to give the fence around the border, which no longer exists, making it pointless to keep it below the ceiling.

I don't believe I ever said this map was meant to be easy, but I'll change the Baron trap in a future release so it's fair on your behalf.

You know, this is my first map. You could be a little less harsh on your behalf, and I'll try and keep my end down. I'm not saying criticism is a bad thing, and I think it's great when given the right attitude, but your attitude makes it out to be that you're trying to slander this map and you're making it out to be the worst creation you've ever played. Give me some time, please. First judgment on a level design that I graphed on paper when I was very young shouldn't be something to go by. So far I have many plans to redo the map as I don't really care for how little it is now and how square the rooms are (thanks to those who decided to respond with positive criticism). I plan on adding many non-objective rooms as it adds to the overall Doom atmosphere and lets the player know there are things to explore rather than just going from point A to point B. Any game player loves a little side exploration (even if it's not much).

Also, I dislike slaughter maps. The idea of having 1000+ enemies in one huge map is not my cup of tea. I find it horrendously unfair as only pros will be good at these maps, given no one who's less could pull it off without taking 2+ hours. As far as I'm concerned, the Baron trap isn't that dirty at all. You just have to keep scrolling from side to side and you should be fine (not to mention you can jump from bridge to bridge, and I'll fix being able to jump on the Baron's platforms).

I'm just wondering why people are acting so critical in a negative way on a first map. There's lots of stuff going on from a technical stand point. Look at any good map, and I doubt you'll find "lots of technical stuff going on." I'm not saying mine is more technical, but the illusion that other's are is because they're not as linear and boring as this map. Ask any Doom mapper and they'll probably tell you that scripting the actions is only 10% of the difficulty of a map ( of course this is my opinion at least). Learning actions is like learning how to ride a bike. Can be tricky to learn, but you never forget afterwards. The real difficulty is making it look good and enjoyable to the public, which I'm focusing on right now as most of the actions are already done.

Old Post 02-07-12 21:09 #
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Grain of Salt
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LightningBolt101 said:
I believe TNT utilized Boom features. Unless I'm wrong, just look at the final level of TNT (hated that beginning when I was little).

Final Doom has its own engine, but is essentially vanilla compatible in terms of behaviour. It doesn't use any Boom features. The trick at the beginning of TNT MAP30 is only a teleporter that warps you into a voodoo doll, telefragging it.


You know, this is my first map. You could be a little less harsh on your behalf, and I'll try and keep my end down. I'm not saying criticism is a bad thing, and I think it's great when given the right attitude, but your attitude makes it out to be that you're trying to slander this map and you're making it out to be the worst creation you've ever played.

Ptoing politely tells you what wasn't fun about your map, and helps you with technical difficulties, and your response is call that slander?

Old Post 02-07-12 21:50 #
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LightningBolt101
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I never said he was, but I get a pretty raw feeling when he posts a comment on here. That kind of "Why do we keep getting these type of people here" feeling.

It's not that I don't take his critique into consideration, but often times I feel more like I'm being attacked than critiqued when he posts something here.

Quoting me constantly and saying something back at it that should not have been taken into consideration as most of it is opinion is annoying. I can understand fixing errors on my part, but do not try and fix my opinion.

Rarely has he helped me with technical difficulties. He's given me one example of how to fix my map, and even then it was something I could easily fix in a few seconds by just increasing a floor height to the ceiling.

The fact that he calls a single trap more unfair than a wad full of slaughter maps is by far a hyperbole.

I'll take everything everyone in this section has said into consideration when rebuilding.

Regarding the Baron trap, I believe throwing in 1000+ monsters into a huge map is just giving artificial skill level increase. I find the gameplay is usually bland as I spend all my time hiding around a corner trying not to die as my BFG is running low on ammo. The only thing that makes it difficult is the insane amount of monsters. This is just my opinion, of course. However, this is not a slaughter map, so I need other means of adding challenges besides throwing as many monsters as I can into a huge map. The level design is great on slaughter maps, but only because it has to be. If the level design did not pop out, the maps would be horrid as not only do you have over-the-top and way too artificially difficult gameplay, you would have to stare at the bland rooms and textures. Once again, this is only my opinion since you people love to take excerpts from it and "try and prove me wrong." Case in point, I'd rather go for an avoidable Baron trap which takes some precision than I would an entire map full of over 1000+ monsters which takes 2 hours to complete.

Old Post 02-07-12 22:55 #
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esselfortium
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You keep going back to this "add 1000+ monsters into a huge map" thing. Is anyone here actually telling you to stuff your map with gigantic hordes of monsters, or are you just saying that because you don't want to consider the advice you're being given?

Old Post 02-07-12 23:01 #
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Mr. Chris
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If this is your very first map, doing something that's not using port specific features is what you should have done. Regardless, people still like vanilla/limit removing maps.

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Old Post 02-07-12 23:16 #
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ptoing
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I am sorry if I came of harsh.

Anyway, about the Baron trap, I did not even realise that I could just jump over the grenade launcher (I do not play wads a lot where you need to jump much). Still, if you get into that fight, it IS unfair. I stand by that. And I also stand by my opinion that mapsets like Sunder are NOT unfair. And that is because they give you room to evade and even tho I am not the biggest fan of slaughtermaps I can see why some people find them fun and others don't.

I personally do not enjoy fights where the amount of luck needed to win is very high, which I think is the case in your Baron trap.

Old Post 02-07-12 23:27 #
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Grazza
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Grain of Salt said:
Final Doom has its own engine, but is essentially vanilla compatible in terms of behaviour. It doesn't use any Boom features. The trick at the beginning of TNT MAP30 is only a teleporter that warps you into a voodoo doll, telefragging it.
It's especially ironic that Evilution (TNT) map30 was claimed to use Boom features, as it is one of those maps that is actually broken by Boom. link

Old Post 02-08-12 00:40 #
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hex11
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If you want to see what's possible in pure vanilla Doom, without thousands of monsters or even the "new" Doom II monsters, play through Classic Episode and the related maps classic10.wad and classic11.wad. There's only about 100-200 monsters per map on UV, and one cyberdemon on E2M8. Far from slaughter, but still a "blast" to play. ;)

Old Post 02-08-12 01:10 #
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LightningBolt101
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It's fine, I know it's the internet and attitude is something that's hard to control.

Like I said, I'm going to fix the Baron trap on your behalf. I wasn't being sarcastic. I'll probably lessen the pit sizes a bit and add more room for maneuverability (such as doubling the size of each bridge), and I've made the platforms accessible in the beta download (but you'll have to deal with even worse textures).

As for the slaughter map opinion, this is just my thoughts. I know this does not apply to everyone, I just dislike them for the fact that they can be a bit brutal and long, especially if you die. I don't consider maps with 1000+ monsters to be fun unless laid out in an orderly fashion that doesn't require 200+ monsters active on screen at once. I just think that comparing a difficult trap to such a thing is a little hyperbolic as I find 100 Revenants and 3 Cyberdemons behind a wall to be a little unfair. But I suppose that's all in opinion, and there's not much you can do for that.

Anyway, I'll work on rounder rooms, more exploration available, more purposes for things, better detail, better textures, etc. Right now some of the stuff is questionable because I haven't really given it a reason. The crouch area was changed to a vent you had to enter due to an earthquake so people wouldn't go "wtf why is this even here."

The hardest part of ZDoom features being added to a map is not creating them, it's giving them a purpose so they don't feel worthless and like they should be left out. I'll expand much more on the ideas so they aren't so wtf later on. ZDoom features are meant to complement a map, not distract the player from it. The less distracting these features are, the better. As far as I'm concerned, they should be giving the map atmosphere, not solely there for the purpose of being there (unfortunately like most of the things such as the gaps and the sewers). Though I know some people just despise the features and will never be satisfied no matter what, I'm trying to fix it so those who don't aren't bothered by them.

Perhaps I'll move the 3D bridges over to the gravity dome which will be made huge and just have the floor "collapse" after you pick up the grenade launcher (which of course it will be no where near as narrow as it is now). Of course gaps can also serve as a good plot progression. When a player enters a new area, it can be used to cut the player off from going back and they must find a new way around (without having to backtrack, off course).

I feel like ZDoom features have a bad name in this forum. I'm going to try and implement them into the map not only for variation, but for plot reasons. I know lots of people like running and gunning, but this is not going to be that type of map. I'll promise you wider sectors, more open rooms, a bigger map all together, and better visuals, but I still want some sort of plot progression (metaphorically speaking of course. This map won't have a plot). I'm sorry if this is disappointing news to hear, but I'll have time for more maps like that after this is done. Right now, I wanna finish this as I feel it's entitled to it.

Old Post 02-08-12 02:43 #
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LightningBolt101
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Sorry this hasn't seen the light of day all too much lately. I've just been in "one of those moods." You know, where you don't feel like doing much. Unfortunately I still don't have much to show. I've been working on my scripting skills and such by creating scripts for lighting, fog, color, force fields, cameras, etc. So far that's been going well, and scripting is now very easy.

However, I'm still not amazing at map design (as if we all didn't know this), but I do have an overhead layout screen shot for you all. It's not much (as a matter of fact it's only about 5% of the level), but it's getting there.

I'll try and find some inspiration later on down the road. Since this is such a big map, it's hard to draw on paper, so I'm just going off what I feel should be necessary and where aka BSing it.

Hopefully it shows some slight improvement to my last design. The small square in the middle at the bottom is the start (just like the old map). Room heights are also varied, but I won't show it in 3D mode because all the textures are either default or missing (I haven't even bothered with them yet).

http://www.iaza.com/work/120212C/iaza12823782868200.png

Old Post 02-11-12 15:35 #
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LightningBolt101
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Update!

Check it out. Sorry, it's not the new map right now. I think I'll just add to this one since I seem to have no ideas for my other one. I'll add some rooms in and change the shape and textures and such.

For now, check out the changes. I've removed some stuff and added some stuff to kinda help the player out (hopefully).

Tell me about any bugs and I'll get working on it.

Old Post 02-16-12 02:51 #
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LightningBolt101
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More bumping.

Anyway, another major update to the map design and texture layout. Also added some secrets (oh ho ho).

Fact: This map now has a BFG9000. Happy hunting.

Old Post 02-18-12 02:20 #
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esselfortium
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I think you may have scared off all the people who were playtesting your map.

Anyway, we have an Edit button. Use that instead of double posting (er... quadruple posting) please.

Old Post 02-18-12 02:49 #
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LightningBolt101
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For someone who claims I have a shitty attitude, you sure like to take every moment you can to bash me.

Maybe if you gave me feed back instead of being an asshole the entire time I might actually learn something new. Ya know, how to make a map fun and better architecture, etc. Instead, you take your time to sit here and bash an opinion clearly stating why I'm not doing something, seeing me as an idiot because it differs from yours. I don't care how good of a mapper you are, you're an asshole and can be seen as nothing less.

inb4 butthurt reply

Old Post 02-18-12 05:44 #
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esselfortium
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LightningBolt101 said:
For someone who claims I have a shitty attitude, you sure like to take every moment you can to bash me.

Maybe if you gave me feed back instead of being an asshole the entire time I might actually learn something new. Ya know, how to make a map fun and better architecture, etc. Instead, you take your time to sit here and bash an opinion clearly stating why I'm not doing something, seeing me as an idiot because it differs from yours. I don't care how good of a mapper you are, you're an asshole and can be seen as nothing less.

inb4 butthurt reply


That's...cool and stuff, I guess, but actually a lot of people have already given you advice on all of those things. I'm just telling you that it's not cool to bump your thread four times in a week if no one is responding to it.

Read the forum rules.

Old Post 02-18-12 07:01 #
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