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Detailing is . . .
This poll is closed.
Very Important. Simulated realism is key. 8 7.69%
Important. Things should look good with no errors or misaligned textures. 41 39.42%
Not Very Important. It just has to work. Misaligned Textures don\\\'t bother me. 22 21.15%
Who Cares. I only use one texture throughout all my square maps anyway. 6 5.77%
impse 27 25.96%
Total: 73 votes 100%
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Phml
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esselfortium said:

In a look through the discussion so far I don't think I've seen Ed say anything about detail being equivalent to "realism". What are you talking about?



"Phml takes offense to the idea that people detail levels and doesn't want them to do so." That is what was quoted before the very part you quoted...

In a look through the discussion so far I don't think I've seen myself say anything about detail, period.

From that, I see only two assumptions to be made here: either he's attempting to troll, or he equates detail with realism. If you see another explanation for this nonsensical idea he has about my supposed dislike of detail in Doom levels, I'm all ears.

Edit: ok, in my response to Grain of Salt I mentioned computer panels and such, which I guess can be considered detail ; and I guess if one considers that sort of detail is representative of any and every kind of detail that can be done on a Doom map, and/or that disliking any specific use of detail is disliking every possible use of detail, then it could be argued I'm against people detailing levels. That kind of logic is even worse than equating detail with realism, though... Socrates is no cat.

Last edited by Phml on 02-08-12 at 02:46

Old Post 02-08-12 02:39 #
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Ed
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All those tiny little sectors.. it.. looks so.. so.... real!

And yes, obviously I've been trolling you since the get-go.

Last edited by Ed on 02-08-12 at 03:53

Old Post 02-08-12 03:37 #
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hex11
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This poll reminds me of the arguments about how Rolemaster is more realistic/detailed than AD&D.

Old Post 02-08-12 03:47 #
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Kirby
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Voting all options ftw!

The options on the poll are still generalizations that don't adequately address the topic. More importantly, the poll seems to have thrown us from the original question -


Zalausai said:
What is hyper detailing? Is it the use of very tiny sectors in an attempt to pust doom to look like a nextgen game? Or is it something else?

Hyper detailing, in my opinion, is a general term that refers to using/creating instense amounts of detail. How one does this or to what end is irrelevant to the term itself.

Old Post 02-08-12 05:00 #
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40oz
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printz said:
People are spoiled, by the increasing computing performance, allowing more detail to be shown on screen and easily drawn with the tools.


I think a lot of the overdetailing of maps stems from people being less imaginative. The cross from Wolfenstein 3D to Doom created a huge window of creative opportunity. You may notice in many 1994 Doom 1 PWADs that there are often crazy lighting effects, jagged walls and endless staircases (those were the hyperdetailing, slopes, and portals of today) I've been rather averse to screenshots since DTWID because people tend to enjoy showcasing a particular section of their maps that they worked very hard on. In DTWID, it was very difficult to do that since the attention was usually spent on creating the entire experience associated with playing the map, and a mere screenshot simply can't capture that. This is the way I think it should be.

I still agree, however, that we are spoiled to a certain extent. In my experience playing older wads, there appears to be much more attention to thing placement than making good looking levels. It's very common to see hanging body parts, impaled zombiemen, large brown trees and barrels on fire scattered around in older maps, but often pretty rare in today's mapping.

Old Post 02-08-12 06:07 #
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Avoozl
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I'm fine with detail as long as it isn't focused on entirely with less focus on everything else, I feel there needs to be a balance rather than there being one thing above the rest.

Last edited by Avoozl on 02-08-12 at 07:44

Old Post 02-08-12 07:28 #
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Phobus
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I'll echo the sentiment that a horrendously ugly map that plays well is worth more to me as a Doom level than a masterpiece that is boring to play. Those levels in Russian MegaWADs like Whitemare and Sacrament that are gigantic, random explorations of beautiful environments (MAP02 of Sacrament being a particularly poor playing example) just annoy me because they make for terrible playing experiences.

However, I will always be most impressed by a level that looks nice and plays well - particularly if the looks produce a good atmosphere.


As for evaluating this thread - the poll and the question definitely don't match up. The options on the poll are all ridiculous extremes that don't make any sense (aside from impse, which is always my preferred option). If we're talking about realism - I'd see Revolution! as an example of realism in Doom done well, as the environments tend to look like "real" places (even the giant worms and sci-fi elements) in a "broad strokes" way, but are fun to play. Realism done badly, for me, would be Sapphire. Yes, a space station would most likely be flat and yes, we would expect plenty of technology in the corridors. However, big square corridors don't actually look particularly exciting (even with a nice space backdrop) and they definitely don't play well.

Hyper-detailing, for me, is when architecture is made at a very high resolution (1-4 size grid) and at a high density. This doesn't necessarily mean it clutters the map, as you could hyper-detail just by outlining each stone on the floor with a slightly raised or lowered cement border, for example, which wouldn't actually get in the way. However, this is far too much like hard work for no gain IMO.

Old Post 02-08-12 09:29 #
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printz
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Ed said:
All those tiny little sectors.. it.. looks so.. so.... real!
Wow, that's so realistic it looks like Doom 3! Is it TSoZD, by any chance?

Old Post 02-08-12 10:31 #
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Avoozl
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I wouldn't call Doom 3 realistic.

Old Post 02-08-12 11:35 #
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Shaviro
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Detail isn't a bunch of individual objects thrown into a scene for good measure. Detail is a level, a resolution. It all depends on what you're going for. Many mappers seem to think it's a matter of taking square rooms and adding nonsensical architecture until it looks complex. Do you want to create a tech-base level? Is it somewhat abstract or do you want the individual rooms to look like something? If it's the latter, replace the straight computextured wall with a few inset machines. Change the pipe texture with some actual pipes.

Is the level supposed to tell the story of an overrun base? Add some corpses, blood decals, gunshots and so forth. Are you making a level that should resemble hell with lavastreams, bricks and such? Create some subtle height difference, arches instead of flat beams, rocks and replace the small blood splat with the appropriate corpses/protusions of hellstuff. Detail should be viewed as a resolution that you scale back and forth, not a number of random crap things for your level.

For rtc we tried to hit the sweet spot between "modern (2004) shooter" and doom. Obviously it didn't always work too well, but the slower speed of the player allowed for higher environmental detail in the shape of pipes, broken tiles and environmental storytelling in the shape of corpses, blood spills, broken down areas and such.

Detail is about enhancing the visual and audial interface between the game and the player. It shouldn't drastically change the game/level, but help convey the vision via a more *detailed* presentation.

Old Post 02-08-12 12:58 #
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Vordakk
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I will confess that I sometimes tend to detail my maps largely due to lack of compelling gameplay ideas. I suspect that there are other people who share this unfortunate affliction. This is why I respect people like Valkiriforce who seem to be able to come up with endless amounts of fun gameplay situations and unique traps, yet also make sure to give good attention to detailing so that the map both looks good and plays well. But gameplay always seems to be the priority.

In summary, I guess my point is that if you don't have good fun gameplay, all the detailing in the world won't make a difference.

Old Post 02-08-12 14:09 #
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printz
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Avoozl said:
I wouldn't call Doom 3 realistic.
Compared to Doom 1 it is.

Old Post 02-08-12 14:30 #
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Ed
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printz said:
Wow, that's so realistic it looks like Doom 3! Is it TSoZD, by any chance?


link

Afraid not. It's a map I made last summer. A friend gave me what I thought was acid, but it turned out to be something else (maybe 2C-B, I forget what he said it was exactly). Either way, I was in a very high functioning hallucinogenic state, by myself, and with nothing else to keep me entertained but DB2. I spent roughly two weeks cleaning up a very, very sloppy mess of unclosed sectors and crossed line-defs. I haven't uploaded it to idgames because the game play is terrible, and depending on what port you're using, there are visual bugs almost everywhere. Consider it an art experiment.

I wholeheartedly agree that a lot of sectors doesn't equate to a good map. Mapping while Patrick Swayze's serpent mounted vampire head is swimming in the wood-grain under your feet probably isn't a good idea either.

Old Post 02-08-12 15:28 #
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BlueEagle
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I think what it comes down to is the time the author spends on making the map versus time spent on making it pretty. If the author knows what he's doing and has top notch gameplay and just wants to give his map a bit of extra spice by adding pretty details to every room... where is the harm?

On the other hand if the author spends too much time detailing the crap out of every corner and the gameplay is half-assed and not well thought out or barely tested, the map will end up being nothing more than a pretty pile of garbage.

My opinion.

Old Post 02-08-12 16:20 #
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_bruce_
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Neat, tidy and textures properly aligned - yes.
Else - no thanks.

Old Post 02-08-12 16:28 #
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Alwaysdoomed
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I perfer moderate detail over hyper detailing.

Doom has always been about going half realistic and half unrealistic. Theres alot of fun maps out there that wouldnt make sense if built in real life, but that doesnt make it unfun.

Id perfer a fun replayable map to a beautyfull and boring to play map.

Eye candy only works for so long, and when its done it all breaks down to is this map or game fun?

I think this is a real problem about game developers these days. They rather spend time making fantastic graphics and cheap gimics, but when it comes to gameplay and reply value its almost like they ran out of time to put that in.

If ID makes doom4 , I hope they focus more on gameplay than having the best graphics in the world.

Old Post 02-08-12 20:19 #
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