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darkreaver
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Hellbent said:

[*]keys on 32x pedestals. Somehow this is trite and played out and inexplicably bothersome to me. There are still places where it is implemented well, but mostly it is a turn off.
[*]A mapset where you almost always have to do something in order to have the key become available to you, either by hitting a switch to lower a pillar or some other played out gimmick. Half the time you should be able to just pick up a key where it lies.


Actually, I have to agree here, even though I`m so guilty of doing both those points I should get at least 10 years behind bars (32x bars)
Old Post 02-12-12 22:14 #
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Hellbent
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Gadbury said:
What do you mean by this? A key that is not on the ground but on a 32 unit high pedestal? If so, not quite sure what the problem is there. It can be grabbed easily enough and I find a key on the floor just looks a bit odd.
A pedestal that is too high to grab the key on it and must be lowered (usually by a switch). I'd have to check to verify, but I don't think Doom or Doom 2 resorted to this very often. To me it seems like an easy device to implement and thus gets abused.
Old Post 02-12-12 23:54 #
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Phobus
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One thing I'm discovering with my /newstuff reviewing is that I actually am quite easy to please. I do have one or two proper dislikes though, which are as follows:

-Being starved of health, but under constant threat of being picked off by damaging floors or hitscanners (chaingunners in particular). As I use save games in long or difficult levels I tend to end up in low health positions fairly often where I have to beat the next part through trial and error. I don't mind these as long as it's not impossible for me to continue and I can rely on getting at least a little health soon. It's when that health isn't available and it's far too easy to lose health that it becomes a problem.

-Teleporters being used to put the player in a definite damage situation. I can live with opening up a door to find out holding a rocket launcher wasn't a good idea due to the enemy waiting on the other side. Likewise, due to the trial and error nature of my playing experience, traps that are highly lethal unless you know they're coming or react very quickly are fine by me. However, when you're teleported into a situation that has you surrounded by already-active monsters (who are then likely to instantly hit you) that strikes me as cheap. Likewise, having monsters teleport right next to the player with no warning or obvious trigger also seems too unfair.

-Inordinate numbers of monsters. Whilst I don't mind slaughtering the odd army with my endless firepower, this process does get boring fast. Particularly in a large, open arena where I'm not under any real threat as long as I hang back or keep moving. When your map is only taking me a long time to beat because it's a constant meat grind, then the gameplay experience is a chore.


I'll also note that completely illogical progression (like having to walk over a certain, unmarked linedef, or having to 'use' or shoot a very specific bit of wall that is indistinguishable from the other walls) is also not cool. I don't mind switch hunts, levels that need exploration or even having no idea what a switch has done when it's first pressed, as long as I can work out the next step without needing to consult the level editor.
Old Post 02-13-12 00:04 #
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Vordakk
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Hellbent said:
A pedestal that is too high to grab the key on it and must be lowered (usually by a switch).
Ahh, when I read the sentence the first time I was thinking 24x for some reason. Now I understand the gripe. Good list.
Old Post 02-13-12 00:58 #
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Razen
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purist said:
Sorry to derail but where did you get the impression Interception might have been cancelled? Is it that the thread has gone quiet or has someone said something? I ask because I've been prioritising MAP08 but will move onto another project if Interception is cancelled or on hiatus.


Mostly because nobody has sent me any maps to test in almost 4 months (Maybe more), but I'm still kind of new to these forums so I have no idea if that's normal or not.

I wouldn't worry about it though, I'm still working on my second map for it. What I said was mostly hypothetical.


Sorry for the derail lol. This is an awesome thread, lots of great posts. I'll have to keep this stuff in mind when mapping.
Old Post 02-13-12 01:32 #
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Grub
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BTW, in an attempt to keep all my relevant DOORTRAK textures unpegged as per advice, one or two of them are still sliding up and down regardless of what options are checked.

Anyone know about this problem?
Old Post 02-13-12 18:17 #
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Vordakk
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My guess is that the ones that aren't cooperating have sectors on the other side of them, or the doortrack linedefs are tied to another sector that they shouldn't be. Try hitting "M" and spamming the map with the "make sector mode" and see if that helps.
Old Post 02-13-12 18:34 #
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Grub
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Yeah, seems to have been the first sectors problem. I was trying to create separately shaped side sectors for the door to slide up and down on, you know, to create a nice looking border, and apparently it doesn't like that. At least not in the way I was doing.
Old Post 02-13-12 19:39 #
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darkreaver
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One more thing I dislike in WADS: crates. I hate them so much. Uuuuhhhrrrghh!
Old Post 02-14-12 15:25 #
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Grub
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Some people really love them, though, so go figure.

I don't mind them too much, but I think that may just be the nostalgia factor of E2M2.

BTW, I just finished the first version of my first level! Woo! I'll post some screenshots later today if you guys like.
Old Post 02-14-12 17:03 #
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Vordakk
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Crates can provide a cool excuse for height variation and puzzle elements. Also they can spice up an otherwise dull room.
Old Post 02-14-12 17:51 #
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Processingcontrol
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Crates are great, especially in crate-mazes.
Old Post 02-14-12 18:03 #
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Katamori
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Crates are the most obvious and most simple detail elements. I love them!
Old Post 02-14-12 18:24 #
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Grub
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I've run into a bug in my map and I'm not sure what's causing it. It's causing HoM on my floor and ceiling. I haven't tweaked this room at all since I started seeing it.

Here's an in-game shot with the HoM circled

http://i.imgur.com/MDUMO.png

Here's a top-down view from DB2

http://i.imgur.com/9qtVe.png

And a 3D view from DB2 of the same angle as the first shot

http://i.imgur.com/ZQwaF.png


Anyone know what might be causing this?
Old Post 02-14-12 22:09 #
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Snakes
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Did you run map analysis mode/check for unclosed sectors?
Old Post 02-14-12 22:25 #
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Grub
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Yeah, there were unclosed sectors in other places, but they were basically on the other side of the map. Can that affect a seemingly unrelated little bit of flat-work a long way away?

EDIT: Ok, I rebuilt the offending area and apparently that did it.

Man, who knows?

Last edited by Grub on 02-15-12 at 01:25
Old Post 02-14-12 23:08 #
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Grub
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Just an update. Working on level 2 of my little WAD now.

BTW, has anyone noticed that most Knee Deep in the Dead maps fit inside a 4096x4096 space? Was this a natural occurrence or was there some kind of hardware/software limitation of the day that forced that to happen?
Old Post 02-23-12 21:46 #
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purist
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Something I dislike about maps recently occured to me and I thought of this thread. It's a silly thing but I have pre-conceived ideas over which liquid flats should be damaging and I get annoyed unfairly when maps don't fit in this.

So, in order of annoyance:

1. Damaging water flats.
2. Non-damaging lava flats.
3. Non-damaging nukage flats.
4. Damaging blood flats.
5. Non-damaging brown water flats.
Old Post 02-23-12 21:53 #
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Grub
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purist said:
Something I dislike about maps recently occured to me and I thought of this thread. It's a silly thing but I have pre-conceived ideas over which liquid flats should be damaging and I get annoyed unfairly when maps don't fit in this.


What I don't understand is why there's so much confusion over this.

In real life, walking in water and blood doesn't hurt you.
Walking in lava and highly acidic/toxic/radioactive waste does.

It's not that hard to figure out.

The brown liquid flat is kind of middle-ground, I guess. It could be full of horrific viruses and bacteria that kill you later, but a long-term "2 months later" death is probably not appropriate grounds for a DooM level :-)]

Unless you were going for a humorous ZDoom wad in which an excursion in the brown water instantly lead to a cutscene about what happened to the doom guy 2 months later, with lots of female doom guys and imps crying around his grave or something.
Old Post 02-23-12 21:58 #
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purist
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Yeah, brown water is the only one I don't really care about. I've used it in both ways. If I'm playing I'm suspicious about it.
Old Post 02-23-12 22:06 #
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skillsaw
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I always make blood deal damage in my maps. A quick check of the IWADs suggests that doing so is not without precedent, as I noticed damaging blood sectors in E3M7, E4M5, MAP20, MAP25, and MAP29 (every map I could think of from the top of my head that used the blood flat, given a minute's time).

Whether or not it is realistic to me doesn't matter. I just generally think of blood as a damaging surface within the context of Doom. More important for me is consistency. In any given project, either ALL blood should deal damage or none. The same goes for the other liquids as well.

Although damaging water does legitimately bother me every time I see it.
Old Post 02-23-12 22:27 #
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Marcaek
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skillsaw said:
Although damaging water does legitimately bother me every time I see it.


Maybe it's hot water?

There's an interesting map idea, a factory or processing plant with lots of boiling hot water :P
Old Post 02-23-12 22:30 #
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Grub
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skillsaw said:
I always make blood deal damage in my maps. A quick check of the IWADs suggests that doing so is not without precedent, as I noticed damaging blood sectors in E3M7, E4M5, MAP20, MAP25, and MAP29 (every map I could think of from the top of my head that used the blood flat, given a minute's time).



I do think there is an exception for "evil" maps (maps set in hell, etc.) It sorta makes sense that the blood there would be out to get you for some reason.

Marcaek said:


Maybe it's hot water?


GIANTKITCHEN.WAD
Old Post 02-23-12 22:31 #
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Ubik
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Grub said:
GIANTKITCHEN.WAD


Somebody please make this.

One that's been bugging me for ages that I ran into yet again tonight: That trick with damage floors/Icon of Sin/voodoo dolls/whatever that kills you but still sends you to the next level, taking away all your weapons and ammo. It totally kills any sense of progression and accomplishment, and usually ends up being frustrating rather than "clever." It's especially infuriating when a megawad does it multiple times - it makes you wonder why you bothered to manage or save your ammo at all. Vanguard, Scythe 2, I love you guys, but... yeah.
Old Post 02-24-12 02:57 #
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Grub
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I can see why they do it since there's a problem with letting a player constantly stock up on energy cells and blue armor and stuff, but that's probably an issue that comes with creating maps that approach slaughtermaps in terms of their monster frequencies. You have to make the player SO strong that by the time they've finished the level, they've come into the next level as gods and there's no challenge unless you make it a slaughtermap again and that's no fun (generally.)

It's an attempt at a solution, but maybe it's a problem that's more about balance than anything.

BTW, you'd have to get really creative with GIANTKITCHEN.WAD. You'd have to at least use 3d floors, because you can't have a giant kitchen without fun ovens and fridges to run around in. Get the milk imps!! Now go to the lower rack and get the lettuce sarges!!
Old Post 02-24-12 05:33 #
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NaturalTvventy
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I don't like maps with a lot of doors. Or lifts. Or maps that consist of only doors and lifts and no other actions.
Old Post 02-24-12 06:00 #
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Grub
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DOORSANDLIFTS.WAD

"I created this map as an experiment in elevator action style gameplay! All enemies are going up and down on lifts, and so are you! And sometimes there's a door! Though most of the time it's a door to the exit switch!

Enjoy!!!"

Actually, wasn't that a level in MOCK2.WAD? Literally an entire level of a hundred or so 64x64 sectors, bunched together, that were themselves a series of constantly activating lifts, and one of the sectors just randomly happened to be the teleporter-style exit trigger?
Old Post 02-24-12 06:07 #
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Phml
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That trick with damage floors/Icon of Sin/voodoo dolls/whatever that kills you but still sends you to the next level, taking away all your weapons and ammo. It totally kills any sense of progression and accomplishment, and usually ends up being frustrating rather than "clever."


To me, it's the other way around. If I have all weapons after a hour or so, and no deaths exits / weapon resets happen, I don't feel any real sense of character progression beyond that point, as I don't get anything new. Hunting for a better weapon as well as fighting at a different pace with different weapons are two of the most fun parts, and continuous play with a filled inventory removes those dynamics.

This is something true for any shooter and not just Doom, of course. It's obviously cleaner if you're using an advanced port and can directly remove weapons from the inventory and/or directly set everything up as an episodic structure, and I can understand how getting killed can rub some people off the wrong way, but in a vanilla/boom environment I much prefer death exits to the alternative. I mean, even Doom 2 was pretty broken after level 7 or so. Rediscovering all those "easy" levels using pistol starts later on was kind of an eye-opener.
Old Post 02-24-12 10:56 #
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hex11
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Marcaek said:


Maybe it's hot water?


Could also be very cold, like Requiem map03.

Edit: Those death exits are pretty much just overcomplicated gimmicks. It's fine in some cases (if it actually fits the theme of that episode/megawad) but otherwise it's totally unecessary because you can simply do the pistol start anytime you want (either via -warp or just letting yourself get killed). I never save my games (and I really mean never), so it's how I end up having to approach most maps anyway.

Last edited by hex11 on 02-24-12 at 11:40
Old Post 02-24-12 11:16 #
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Grub
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Anyone wanna test out my first level? I wanna see if anyone runs into any major problems or bugs or anything.

IWAD is Doom 2, and I did most of my designing for UV, but I also tried to balance it for other difficulties if those suit you better.


http://www.mediafire.com/?6p4vtn3a7mrzjcn

I've been using GZDoom, but I don't see why regular ZDoom wouldn't work since I don't think I'm using any special GZDoom features in the map :P

Oh, and don't mind the 2nd map. Those are WIP fragments


Also using Perkristian's hi-def sounds in this thing right now, but this isn't an official release or anything so that might change.

Last edited by Grub on 02-25-12 at 01:37
Old Post 02-25-12 01:16 #
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