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Touchdown
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darkreaver said:
No, thats not OK either.


Of course it is. Consistency does not equal lack of diversity. And that's evident in numerous places, hell, E1 in Hellbound is a good example. But for some reason in Hell episodes people seem to think that the only way to add diversity is to break the flow. There are creative ways to make something interesting while retaining the hellish vibe. Not a lot of mappers try to do that, maybe because it's easier to say "hey, any kind of abstract level will do because it's Hell and it's fine that way".


cannonball said:
Episode 3 of Scythe has a lot of maps which consist of only redrock.


True but then suddenly the last two maps make no sense at all. And it kind of ruins the vibe of the whole episode because the snow base comes out of nowhere. Of course nothing but red caves is also questionable.

A note: of course these are more general thoughts. Aimed at multiple mapsets, not just Hellbound (there are far worse cases than HB).

Old Post 05-26-13 22:06 #
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jerrysheppy
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I think I'd be the last one to argue that Doom hell can't be bizarre, but the problem comes when you use textures that are signifiers for other sorts of aesthetic. Green slime is pretty strongly associated with techbases and human industry in Doom. Likewise, a window with Venetian blinds, or blue water, says Earth much more than it says Hell. There are some exceptions, such as using liquids for ceilings, and you can find a few counterexamples in the official IWADs, but in general you shouldn't be surprised when people tell you that using the more terrestrial textures disrupts the feeling of a hell map.

The library design and the green slime caverns would, I think, fit a lot better in an episode that was explicitly trying to be a sort of surrealist, Elder-World episode. Against the more traditional flesh and fire styled hell, they stick out pretty badly. It's all a matter of knowing what sort of impression you're trying to present. Generally this WAD does such an excellent job at having all the architectural and textural choices make sense, and telling a story purely via level design, that it's weird to have a map that feels like it came from a different set, or textures that feel out of place. It's not like e.g. map20 where it's obvious why an UAC base and a hellish cave temple would be in the same map, and hence it feels like logical design, it's more like 'how'd this medieval library end up in Hell.'

Old Post 05-27-13 00:47 #
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Z86
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I kinda went for the Elder World look and feel in many places, you got that right. Quake E4 is a large inspiration on me - for me it had very much the same frightening feel as Doom3's hell

Think of E4M8 (the Nameless City) - it is an inspiration for both elements of MAP24 and MAP26.

Basically: MAP24 = Nameless City + the Flood Zone of DN3D - except flooded with Blood - just head directly to the right to see it, plus plenty of upside down city parts on the other side.

MAP22 = Doom3's hell combined with Doom2 maps such as The Pit or Circle of Death, and an end part that is kinda Unreal (the floating island introduction level) and Quake (last room is E2 bonus map inspired)

MAP26 = Doom64's Eye of the Storm (MAP14), combined with the look and feel of the Nameless City (E4M8) of Quake, with some library flavour.

Also, MAP28 = Doom64's MAP13 with E4M3 (Elder God Shrine - think of the corridors on that map) feel, and some unique bits. OFC it has more lava, blood and SP_HOT, so it conforms more to the hell look of some maps.

What I noticed I did not use that much was GSTONE and Marble. MAP23 has some and MAP27 has a marble part. Marble-y hell is mostly reserved for Hell corruptions on Earth.

Old Post 05-27-13 08:59 #
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jerrysheppy
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Finished this, including most of the two secret maps (I console'd to them, didn't find the exits) and I just have to say that whatever small critiques I may have had, this megawad is absolutely outstanding. Thanks so much for making it.

Old Post 05-29-13 05:31 #
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Z86
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Heh, looks like I hid the secret maps well... Though with iddt and idclip you can easily find the exits (they are both uber ingeniously hidden behind a wall of SKSNAKE), but opening them legitly is a bit more tricky :)

Old Post 05-29-13 14:06 #
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Z86
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Beta 3 out!

Lots of bugfixes, and finally MAP29 is now playable on a lot more ports. It is a heavily reduced version here, I'll include an extra MAP29, which is the fully detailed version, in the final release.

Old Post 05-31-13 20:46 #
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Katamori
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HELLBOUND IS NOW ZDOOM-COMPATIBLE! HALLELUJA!

http://i.imgur.com/e7d7QtRl.jpg

Last edited by Katamori on 06-03-13 at 12:16

Old Post 06-01-13 14:51 #
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mouldy
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Finally finished playing through this monster. Really epic stuff, the sense of scale on some of these maps is crazy. And the design is bloody lovely to look at, I wish I could have spent longer admiring map 30 without being chased around by never ending hordes. I think map 30 was the only one that annoyed me, because I saved with low health and then found myself forced to run through damaging lava. But it is the final map so no big deal, plus its possible to run through the whole map from the start fairly quickly once you figure out where to go.

I ended up playing on my beefy computer for map 29 - zdoom on my laptop wasn't having it even with your 'heavily reduced' version. It wouldn't usually bother me that much, there are plenty of wads that wont run on my laptop, but its a shame that was the only map that had the problems. Not much you can do about that though...

Excellent wad!

Old Post 06-01-13 15:44 #
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jerrysheppy
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I really liked the design of map30 in particular, I have to say. How to make a twist on Map30 is a question that every megawad runs up against--some do it by presenting the baphomet face in a new/especially artistic fashion, some do it by not making the boss shooter a baphomet face, some do it by not using the boss shooter at all, etc.

This wad had a pretty creative approach to the "problem" that borrowed from and subverted a lot of different past approaches, to the point where Map30 surprised me multiple times even as I was playing through it.

My only complaint was that the way to the blue key seemed so unremarkable that I assumed it was just a way back to the main area rather than leading anywhere special, and only tried it when absolutely all else failed, after wasting a bunch of time (and reloads).

Old Post 06-01-13 22:05 #
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Z86
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jerrysheppy said:

My only complaint was that the way to the blue key seemed so unremarkable that I assumed it was just a way back to the main area rather than leading anywhere special, and only tried it when absolutely all else failed, after wasting a bunch of time (and reloads).



You are right. I put some markers on the teleport and the enterance to make it clearer.

Old Post 06-01-13 22:25 #
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Alteus
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Ah, It's fantastic that map29 now runs in ZDaemon! We will see next Thursday how new levels handle a swarm of hungry-demon-flesh-players :P

Old Post 06-03-13 03:16 #
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Memfis
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Uh is this intentional? Looks cool to me but...

https://thumb5.wuala.com/previewImage/kuchitsu/Doom_SCREEN/HBBeta3.wad/doom1780.png/

(screen taken in prboom-plus)
edit: and in ZDaemon the logo doesn't appear at all

Old Post 06-05-13 19:04 #
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Z86
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That is very strange. I never noticed that even though my primary testing port was prboom...

Old Post 06-06-13 16:39 #
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Memfis
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Apparently there are some restrictions on where the logo can be placed. You can fix this by resetting the Y alignment of M_DOOM to 0.

Old Post 06-06-13 16:46 #
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Jimmy
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After an extensive co-op run with my brother, I can say that this is overall a really, really solid mapset. Multiple thumbs up, several gold stars and numerous big fluffy cuddles.

Seriously, this mapset is, technically, a feat and a half. There is a clear amount of heart and soul shining through these maps - lots of care put into making them visually a little bit different (the occasional mixing of D1 textures with D2's, along with the new skies help this along), and detailed juuust the right amount. I really have to admire this project for that.

When I first fired up the full beta, MAP17 was the first map I had to have a proper go at because I was blown away by how huge it was. And then the rest of the maps I played from that point onward delivered exactly the same sense of epic scale. There were only a few that seemed to outstay their welcome by dragging a bit in the middle, and I got hopelessly lost a few times, but I've come to expect that of my (and my brother's, heh) own terrible navigational skills. But geez the size of the maps, they're frighteningly big. MAP14 and MAP16 are city-like in every sense of the word, and MAP29 is like walking into Mordor (which, as has been well-established by now, one does not simply).

MAP18 and MAP19 are by far my favorite of the whole set. Amazing-looking tributes to E1 and E2 of Doom, which when combined with D2's monsters and light smatterings of D2's textures throughout, make for a really, really interesting play. Shame we got so lost in MAP19 that we couldn't finish it. :S MAP24 is also an absolutely fantastic-looking level.

I also love the subtle little nods to other games you snuck in. How MAP09 is basically DN3D's The Abyss (MAP24 also had some Flood Zone stuff going on), and MAP21 is clearly the opening to Hell from Doom 3.

I only found a few things throughout that should likely be addressed as they seemed buggish in nature.

http://imgur.com/Fw37Vzo MAP14. This light is missing its gradient.
http://imgur.com/opVXhQs MAP14. The SSG pedestal has the incorrect light level.
http://imgur.com/PkmmKTk MAP17. Misalignment.
http://imgur.com/XXjx2ua MAP20. There are techlamps here that are set to appear on hard skill only. Might be worth making sure this isn't the case on any of the other maps by making a Thing filter in DB2 and then doing some mass edits.
http://imgur.com/mr4cagX MAP27. I couldn't figure out how to get the shells that were between these marble pedestals.
http://imgur.com/3KNCJuV MAP32. This door can't be opened more than once by the switch (which is open-stay), but the door is an open-wait-close on the other side, so there's the possibility of being stuck outside it once it closes.

Along with these reports, here are my honest critiques on the whole set:

Needs to be balanced better for co-op. Even on HMP my brother and I often found ourselves rather strapped for ammo, and this made the experience a bit frustrating.
Layouts are at times confusing. My bro and I started to get a feeling for how large and complex the maps were going to be by MAP02, which is so very open and multicursal that we ended up going back on ourselves multiple times. Then we got supremely lost in MAP19 and MAP25. The former we didn't even manage to finish, but the latter had a teleporter we had to go through in order to proceed that was very non-obvious.
Lots of samey, obviously copy-pasted hallways that do get repetitive after a while. I think the map most guilty of this is MAP12 - the TEKBRON maze at the end can be a bit of a nightmare to endure. MAP17 also has some questionable copy-paste going on in the first few hallways, which are very stringy as a result of all the repetition, and oddly detailed with these tiny lights.
Staircases that aren't fun to fight on. Well, usually they're not, but particularly here, there were a number of fights on descending staircases, like in MAP14 and MAP28, where this can be problematic as the monsters can see you, but you can't see them below your gun.
Teleporters that lead to dead ends. Very frustrating in the larger maps like MAP17 - this one near the end of the map takes you back to somewhere in the middle, in the starport itself. But then going back through that one takes you to this one right at the start of the map. The heck? MAP19 is also guilty of this but to an even greater extent, and the teleporter layout of that one is mightily confusing.
Use of windows. The TNT window texture is used a lot in the techbase/urban maps. On top of the fact that there isn't really a way of having shootable or blocking glass windows in Doom that don't look terribly cartoony, but they're used with inconsistent purpose, particularly on MAP14. In that map there are windows which are shootable, others that are not, and in one bizarre instance that had me raging quite hard, blacked-out windows that can be shot through - with chaingunners behind them that tear you to bits because you can't see them. Wouldn't be so bad if the texture used (BLAKWALL) wasn't the same texture used on the rest of the walls.
Overdetailing or use of border-detailing. Sometimes the detailing seems either visually invasive or superfluous, like the numerous switch-lights on MAP12. Sometimes it even gets in the way of the player's progression, like these caged pipes which border this walkway that the player has to hug on MAP11. As for border-detailing, this is most evident on MAP28: The Black Citadel (and I feel I should add that this is probably the weakest map in the set on account of its complete symmetry, slightly confusing layout and problematic starting area), as well as MAP32. MAP29's overdetailing has already been mentioned, but it caused latency problems in me and my brother's LAN game, so it's definitely an issue.

All that said, I'd have to give this mapset nine out of ten overall. Only bits of it weren't my personal cup of tea, but the rest of it was a deliciously sugar-sweet, milk-rich mug of boiling hot delightfulness. Most well done, Z86, and cheers. :)

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Last edited by Jimmy on 11-27-13 at 16:21

Old Post 06-06-13 17:22 #
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Z86
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Thanks for the feedback, really appreciated!


I'll do some fixing for the final release, and probably address some flaws that are simple to fix.

MAP12 - imagine how bad it was before I put the shortcut teleporters there... This map had some really bad gameplay, hope I mostly scavenged it.

MAP19 - has an experimental two-stage lowering mechanism for the red key, just find the two other keyed doors with the switches


Also, you can find out all the influences and inspirations within the .txt file :)

Old Post 06-06-13 18:55 #
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Vermil
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It may have been a week or so, since this thread was last updated, but since the wad doesn't seem to be on the archives yet, I figure one can still report bugs etc.

I'm deliberately avoiding gameplay opinion.

Map11: It is possible to jump onto map border sector 724 from sector 499.

Map12: It's possible to open door sector 99 before you lower the bars.

Map17: The lines of sectors 3738 and 3739 aren't hidden on the automap.

Map18: It's possible to open the exit door through the bars,

Map21: it's easily possible to slip around the trigger that raises the two Hell Knights at the start. I imagine you know of this one, hence the second trigger on the bridge though.

Map23: Consider adding a tunnel at the bottom of the exit hole for the sake of those who jump down the hole but don't travel far enough to cross the exit trigger.

Map25: Texture misalignment on linedef 1282.

Map27: Maybe hide the linedefs that border the start area? Like you did with the red key bar area on Map29 in the bottom right corner of the map.

Map29: linedef 9653 needs a trigger to raise the tag 48 monsters out of the floor, in case a player crosses linedef 10297, but then goes back to the right side, rather than continuing down the left side. linedef 16666 has the wrong texture; SP_HOT1, instead of TANROCK5.

Old Post 06-14-13 13:44 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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Love the new levels so far. Am up to level 15, and playing the two secret levels, which are both amazing.

Few little things I noticed. (Soz if they have already been pointed out.)

-Map 31. I am pretty sure the secret exit to map 32 is not actually accessible. The reason being, the Commander Keen in sector 1666 is sealed off from the rest of the level, and there are no sector tags to crush him or anything.

Map 32. The switch at linedef 10583 needs to be SR rather than S1. Otherwise you can lock yourself out of the teleporter room and not be able to get back in, thereby breaking the level.

http://i.imgur.com/eGpYZ8g.png Map 04. Misalignment on the midtexture.
http://i.imgur.com/AK3I1tp.png Map 05. Linedefs showing on the automap.
http://i.imgur.com/6WCTNob.png Map 04. This secret has two sectors marked 'secret'
http://i.imgur.com/Qq5gO7K.png Map 07.Same for this secret
http://i.imgur.com/jgToAb9.pngThis hanging and one other nearby were blocking.
http://i.imgur.com/Y0JuooB.pngNo faults here, I just loved how this lighting was done.
-(Map 31) I felt that the floor on sector 1660 and 1665 could be lowered by 128 units. Purely an aesthetic thing, would make the marble building seem like it were floating in void. Seeing the floor on those sectors just somehow seemed 'wrong'.
-(Map 32) Sectors 1446, 1450, 1532 and 1533 need to have their damaging floors removed.

Last edited by KiiiYiiiKiiiA on 06-15-13 at 16:05

Old Post 06-15-13 15:58 #
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Vermil
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA said:
-Map 31. I am pretty sure the secret exit to map 32 is not actually accessible. The reason being, the Commander Keen in sector 1666 is sealed off from the rest of the level, and there are no sector tags to crush him or anything.


To get at him, there is a very hidden switch, on linedef 13019 that temporarilly opens one of the sides of the pillar.

Old Post 06-15-13 18:48 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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Vermil, you sir, are correct. I had looked at it in an editor, and saw that the 'interior' of the pillar wasn't connected to the outside of the pillar. (Which it isn't, on three sides. Guess I didn't check it well enough.) I actually thought perhaps z86 had deleted a connecting sector by mistake, but no, my bad.

Old Post 06-15-13 20:18 #
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Z86
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Post 1 is updated, final version is released. It is now up on the /newstuff

Some changes from Betas:
- bugfixes (ofc)
- MAP17: added an extra teleporter that leads to the runway and back
- MAP21: the trigger that raises the Hellknights at the start is now wider
- MAP27: the teleport crazy cyberdemon now goes to the exit area after you get the blue key
- MAP30: slightly changed layout of blue key area, added more ammo
- MAP32: is now much more cross-port friendly and multiplayer friendly

Old Post 06-30-13 11:52 #
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Springy
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YES! You have made my day Z86! Unfortunately I'm out so will download this when I get home, well done on the release. I cannot wait to play it.

Old Post 06-30-13 11:56 #
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cannonball
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good times :)
I will definitely put this up for the doomworld megawad club for August. Plus very likely will be the first cacoward nomination this year. Definitely worth it.

Old Post 06-30-13 12:04 #
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Demon of the Well
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I'll definitely back Cannonball up in nominating this for the August club WAD--I've been looking forward to it for a long time.

Old Post 07-01-13 06:41 #
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Ragnor
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Excellent, I've been waiting for this to be Final for ages! This might force me to resume my Dooming on my computer despite its Doom problems

Old Post 07-01-13 10:01 #
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NightFright
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I felt a great disturbance in the Force. As if hundreds, if not thousands of Doom players suddenly screamed in pleasure because a significant project got finished which they had to play.

Finally, I am able to play past the demo barrier. Congratulations for this accomplishment, and now: Let's get at it! *.*

Last edited by NightFright on 07-01-13 at 12:48

Old Post 07-01-13 12:43 #
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Z86
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Well, I just realized that on MAP12 I left in an unintentional shortcut. Maybe I'll need to make an update eventually, so if something else is still fishy too, just let me know and I'll bundle it together in the next fix.

BTW if anyone who youtubes let's plays or speedruns would choose to do this wad, just let me know to catch up on it (you can gain a subscriber :) )

Old Post 07-05-13 07:41 #
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Springy
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I recorded some speed runs on release. A few no monsters and a UV Speed for map 03, I'll see if I can get them on YouTube later. http://doomedsda.us/wad2117.html EDIT:

Last edited by Springy on 07-05-13 at 14:57

Old Post 07-05-13 11:49 #
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Z86
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I'll advertise this here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv0A...0nv0hyGBB1a-d41

pretty entertaining blind walkthrough

BTW there will be a patch with some changes, including:
- Minor texture alignment fixes
- MAP12: shortcut teleport to exit now opens from exit and it is one way (so you can't avoid a part of the map)
- MAP14: added a bit more health, fixed the glitchy elevator

Old Post 07-10-13 22:00 #
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Rayzik
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Z86 said:
BTW if anyone who youtubes let's plays or speedruns would choose to do this wad, just let me know to catch up on it (you can gain a subscriber :) )


Interested in some UV-Max demos?

I'm currently working on MAP04, loving the maps so far. Keep up the good work :D (I.E: MORE MEGAWADS! ;D)

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Old Post 07-11-13 02:34 #
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