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Processingcontrol
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Urban Space Cowboy said:
It's easy enough to rip the early Plutonia 2 alphas and betas from Metabolist's site where they're still sitting around after all these years...

I checked the site, but I could only find a 1 map demo. Do you have a link to the full version?

Old Post 02-02-13 02:03 #
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Urban Space Cowboy
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You'll need to build a WAD with deutex, so if you're too dumb to find the early versions yourself, you're almost certainly too dumb to use them. Besides, if I did post a link then some mod or another would almost certainly erase it. Nag joepallai to finish his episode. ;)

Old Post 02-02-13 02:29 #
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Memfis
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Ehh, I just loaded p2res07 and p2l_01, worked fine. Did you use deutex to make the wad work with plutonia or something?

Old Post 02-02-13 05:28 #
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joepallai
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Nagging me to finish my episode will never work. It will be done when it's done--this is something I do for fun in my spare time.

Old Post 02-02-13 15:57 #
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Xaser
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Urban Space Cowboy said:
You'll need to build a WAD with deutex, so if you're too dumb to find the early versions yourself, you're almost certainly too dumb to use them. Besides, if I did post a link then some mod or another would almost certainly erase it.

Dude, who shit in your cornflakes?

In the interest of not being misanthropic, I suppose I'll post a link to the old files and scratch my head in regards to what forum rule I could possibly be violating.

I've been browsing through the maps, and pretty much nothing in the old set ever made it to the Plutonia 2 we know and love today. Among other things, there's early builds of Aztecorum (hooray semi-relevancy) and the map that became Imprisoned (PL2 MAP12). Haven't seen anything else that looks familiar yet since I only took a quick glance through the wad, but I'm sure there are some hidden gems in the set.

It'd be lovely to see some of this stuff come to light, but playing through some of the maps, there indeed seems to be a lot of crap to sift through. The first map is particularly badly done, with massively grind-y gameplay against tons of enemies that just stand in front of you to get shot at. I feel like a one-man firing squad. D:

If folks find this sort of stuff interesting, it might be worth starting a new thread on this so as to not hijack Joe's. :P

Old Post 02-02-13 18:07 #
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Urban Space Cowboy
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Xaser said:
Dude, who shit in your cornflakes?
Okay, since I was déclassé to bring it up in the first place, here's what I've found from rummaging around. WARNING: I wasn't involved in Plutonia 2's development, plus I'm really opinionated, so the following is a combination of guesswork and smart-ass remarks:
plutonia2 contains many individual maps and a couple of betas. Some highlights:
- text file from September 2000 describing which monsters, weapons, powerups, etc. should be on which level
- beta WAD from May 2001. Let's run down the maps included...

  • Map 1 - by Metabolist. Sucks. Best part is the entry door with a Plutonia transporter hastily plunked down in front of it. :)
  • Map 2 - mostly by Ebola with some additions (most notably, a secret area with an animation from the original Plutonia) by Metabolist. Eventually became the central 1/3 of map 12, "Imprisoned".
  • Map 3 - by John Bishop with some edits by Metabolist. So-so. The screenshot in the demo map's interpic is from this map.
  • Map 4 - by Fredrik. Really early unfinished version of map 13, "Hard Facility". Hey, this means the map 4 slot was given to two different Fredrik maps at different times. :)
  • Map 5 - by Metabolist. Unfinished.
  • Map 6 - by Joe Pallai and Metabolist. Playable but needs node rebuild.
  • Map 8 - by The Gemini. This map eventually ended up in Hell Revealed II.
  • Map 11 - by Metabolist. Sucks.
  • Map 12 - by Metabolist. Barely started.
  • Map 13 - by Metabolist. It's that shitty demo map. :)
  • Map 14 - by Lee Szymanski, I think. Barely started.
  • Map 15 - by Joe Pallai. Puzzly techbase that has no fragging business in a Plutonia WAD, shame 'cause it's pretty cool.
  • Map 32 - by Metabolist. It's the first go at "a fusion between Map01 and E1M1" that Plutonia's dox mention, and oh my god does it suck. :)
  • Map 16 - by Metabolist, except for the beginning bit that's copied from Plutonia map 30!! Has some close-wait-open traps that sometimes don't open properly. Sucks.
  • Map 20 - also by The Gemini, also ended up in Hell Revealed II.
  • Map 21 - first outdoor area by Anders Johnsen!! All the rest by Metabolist, and you can really tell because it instantly reverts to shitty right angles and narrow hallways everywhere.
  • Map 24 - by Metabolist. Unfinished, right angles, narrow hallways, sucks. Another hastily-added Plutonia transporter in front of an entry door. See pl2-24.zip for a complete (but still sucky) version.
  • Map 27 - by Joe Pallai. Early unfinished version of map 23, "Aztecorum". Player start isn't in the right place.
  • Map 28 - don't know designer. This map sucks.
  • Map 30 - Metabolist's go at a boss map. Tough fights, hilariously easy boss area, just how I like it. :)

- resources WAD and levels WAD from August 2002 (load them together), including...

  • Map 2 - as above with some more work done.
  • Map 3 - as above with some more work done.
  • Map 4 - "Hard Facility" again, and now playable to the end. Hooray! I like this layout better than Gusta's revamped version, sorry Gusta. :(
  • Map 5 - as above and now playable! See if you can spot the area that became the southern 1/3 of map 12, "Imprisoned".
  • Map 6 - don't know designer. Replacement for the previous map 6 with a more Plutonian layout.
  • Map 7 - don't know designer. Cramped layout, exit doesn't even have a Plutonia transporter!
  • Map 8 - as above with some more work done.
  • Map 9 - by Metabolist and Laurence Hanley. You start out in an early version of map 6, "Collider Complex", before Peroxyd massively reworked it (all to the better IMHO), then you teleport away to Hanley's completely separate area which has nothing in common with it! Why, Metabolist, why? :(
  • Map 10 - by Metabolist. This has edits by Virgil the Doom Poet which mostly consist of pointless detailing that you're likely to get snagged and caught on -- a technique that is, like, anti-Plutonia. Compare to the pre-Virgil version in pl2-10.zip to see what I mean. Ugh.
  • Map 11 - by Metabolist. Early version of map 19, "Hecknology". Sucks.
  • Map 12 - by Metabolist. The previous barely started map has now received considerable additions, including another copied section, this time from the entry of Plutonia map 3. Otherwise kind of eh, and still unfinished.
  • Map 13 - by Metabolist with more shitty NEEDS MOAR DETAIL!!1! editing by Virgil, and a couple of actual additions. Whatever. Still cramped and sucky.
  • Map 14 - by Lee Szymanski with some additions by Metabolist. Hey, now, this is more like it! It's a techbase/office complex, it's puzzly, it's cool. It's also not at all Plutonian but you won't care.
  • Map 15 - as above with some more work done.
  • Map 31 - don't know designer. Hey look, a secret map! With a super-secret exit which AFAIK is impossible to get to.
  • Map 32 - don't know designer. All-new super-secret map! Its layout is kind of similar to how "Collider Complex" ended up, funnily enough.
  • Map 16 - don't know designer. Replacement map 16 that's small and simple but still sucks.
  • Map 17 - by Metabolist. Decent albeit cramped, has another secret area with another animation from the original Plutonia.
  • Map 18 - don't know designer. So-so. Way too easy to skip having to get the blue key. :)
  • Map 19 - by PAGB666. Has a nice outdoor bridge across a blood lake, but otherwise barely started.
  • Map 20 - don't know designer. Barely started.
  • Map 21 - by Virgil, I think. Decent but not especially Plutonian.
  • Map 22 - by Erik Alm. Is this the only map that stayed in the same slot all the way through development? Here's another map that IMHO wasn't really improved by Gusta's improvements.
  • Map 23 - by PCorf, who eventually released it as part of his Selfish series. Decent.
  • Map 24 - don't know designer. Barely started.
  • Map 25 - by T.V. and maybe others. Hey now this is interesting -- it includes an early version of the rising spaceship from map 10, "Cosmodrome", AND an early version of the first 1/4 or so of map 26, "Plutopia"! It also includes some other things, but it's tragically unfinished.
  • Map 26 - by Metabolist. Early version of map 27, "Red Hot", before T.V. considerably reworked it.
  • Map 27 - by Joe Pallai. "Aztecorum" is now playable, but still very different from what it ended up being.
  • Map 28 - don't know designer. This map still sucks.
  • Map 29 - by T.V. and maybe others. More early bits from "Plutopia"! Be sure to IDDT and IDCLIP to check out all the disconnected bits.
  • Map 30 - by Virgil the Doom Poet. All-new boss map with a raising and lowering Romero head reminiscent of STRAIN.

- July 2005 levels and resources. I presume Metabolist released these shortly before leaving the project; you'll need deutex to build a WAD. Once you do that, you end up with the following. See if you can spot the general trend:

  • Map 1 - don't know designer. Sucks less than Metabolist's map 1, but still understandably tossed.
  • Map 2 - Oh no Virgil's worked his "magic" on this map. Thank goodness T.V. threw that crap out when he reworked it into the final map 12, "Imprisoned".
  • Map 3 - by John Bishop, Metabolist, and (argh) Virgil. What are you doing to those poor vectors Virgil, stop that. >:(
  • Map 4 - by Fredrik and (sigh) Virgil. NEEDS MORE DETAIL strikes again!!
  • Map 5 - as above with some more work done.
  • Map 6 - by unknown designer and (not again!) Virgil. BONUS: Some of the excess detailing on the floor allows you to speedrun straight to the exit and skip part of the map! :)
  • Map 7 - as above with some more work done. Still sucks. :)
  • Map 8 - by The Gemini and (oh for God's sake) "T3H VIRGIL". More pointless detailing, yay!
  • Map 9 - by Metabolist, Laurence Hanley, and (you know it) Virgil. Hey Virgil, thanks for making that one stairway frustratingly narrow and easy to fall off of, AND for not doing a thing to unite Metabolist's and Hanley's sections! No wonder Peroxyd ditched Hanley's section, then broke Metabolist's section to pieces and put it together again.
  • Map 10 - by Metabolist and (him again) Virgil. Not much MOAR DETAIL than in the August 2002 beta, but still just as pointless.
  • Map 11 - as above with some more work done, but still pretty sorry compared to what Method and Peroxyd reworked it into.
  • Map 12 - as above, and now playable, but sucky. Tries so hard to be Plutonia-esque, fails so hard at it. :)
  • Map 13 - mmmmyup it's the shitty demo level again, with Virgil's MORE DETAIL!! again.
  • Map 14 - by Lee Szymanski and...and...and what the hell, Virgil? Not only did you add a lot of shitty pointless detail, you cut down Szymanski's map drastically, removing the stuff that was actually good! Really now, what the hell?
  • Map 15 - Joe Pallai's techbase is a beacon of mostly-untouched sanity amidst all the obnoxious Virgil-izing. Thank God.
  • Map 31 - Good news: the super-secret exit is now accessible. Bad news: the map still sucks.
  • Map 32 - as above with some more work done.
  • Map 16 - don't know designer. ANOTHER all-new map 16! So-so.
  • Map 17 - by Metabolist and (are you tired of this yet?) Virgil. Hey, at least the MOAR DETAIL isn't too severe here.
  • Map 18 - as above with some more work done. Still way too easy to skip the blue key.
  • Map 19 - by Kaiser. Could it be? An actually good-looking, well-designed, Plutonia-esque map?! Of course Kaiser released it on his own because Plutonia 2 was taking too damn long.
  • Map 20 - by Erik Alm. Barely any changes from the final map 24, "Outpost of the Evil Dead", except for lacking Plutonia transporters at the entry and exit.
  • Map 21 - by Kaiser. Another map that Kaiser released on his own because Plutonia 2 was dragging, but this one's not near as good or as Plutonia-ish. It kind of reminds me of Strife, actually. Still worth trying out to see some layout differences (in terms of what opens up when).
  • Map 22 - as above with some more work done, not yet Gusta's revamp.
  • Map 23 - as above with some more work done.
  • Map 24 - don't know designer. Spooky dark map set in a church, a graveyard, and catacombs. Cool! Check it out! But don't expect it to be the slightest bit Plutonian, 'cause it ain't.
  • Map 25 - by T.V. and unknown additional designer. As above, minus the less distinctive sections, and plus a bunch of fraggin' annoying switch hunts. Yuck.
  • Map 26 - by Metabolist (and oh god no no no) Virgil. Pointless detail AND broken teleporter linedefs, making the map unfinishable! Crud.
  • Map 27 - by Joe Pallai and (feel the burn! FEEL IT!) Virgil. Oh god no not more stupid pointless detailing, have mercy on us!
  • Map 28 - don't know designer. This map STILL sucks.
  • Map 29 - by T.V. and a cast of thousands! Wow, looks like the original intent was for an grand finale map with everybody and his uncle contributing sections. Of course eventually most of the cast of thousands drifted away and T.V. hacked (most of) his contributions into map 26, "Plutopia". Oh, what could have been.
  • Map 30 - by Virgil the Doom Poet. Much the same as before. It's the switch-hunt to end all switch-hunts! Sic transit gloria mundi.


Of course levels.zip also includes a zillion maps in various stages of completion and/or Virgil-ization (ugh). Let us know if you find any goodies worth savoring or mocking, y'all.

Last edited by Urban Space Cowboy on 02-03-13 at 06:17

Old Post 02-03-13 05:50 #
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joepallai
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So after quickly looking at some of these files I haven't seen in a decade; here are my initial thoughts.

map06 of p2b01may.zip is not the map06 I fixed for Sam; in fact this is the first time I have ever seen this map. Not sure who made it to be honest.

map15 of p2b01may.zip is actually the 4th level I ever completed. I started it around Sept. 97 and finished it around Dec. 99 or so--I remember Sam posting about it being completed and how it was a large map. I have some developement sketches of this map that I can post. Also I always hated how Sam implemented the Secret area in this map (the map was originally intended for Map06 of PUREDOOM but for this project I proposed that the secret exit just be the standard exit since it was such a large map--but Sam just had to improve it for me.)

map27 of p2b01may.zip shows the descending floor trap that was directly inspired by Plutonia's map02. The map is roughly 5 months old at this time.

p227alp4.zip shows map 27 really starting to take shape. This is probably around 5-6 months of mapping. Also around this time, Sam came up with the name "Aztecorum" which I always thought was a good and memorable name. The text gives additional insight into my mapping process, as I like to write out my thoughts (however brief) when I am in a project.

The Virgil stuff--I never knew when Virgil was given access to the Plutonia file, but he managed to completely fuck it over with an utter lack of respect to any previous author's work. It was like Sam gave him permission to shit on our work on his behalf. I am completely grateful that Plutonia2 was rebooted and excised by Vincent Cataala, Myk, Gusta and company. It could have been godawful otherwise.

Old Post 02-03-13 10:18 #
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Xaser
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Ah, thanks for the breakdown there -- I managed to pass by the 2005 set of maps entirely since the filenames were so generic. :P

Definitely some cool things in the latest pack -- Kaiser's maps in particular (I missed the standalone releases, I guess). MAP24 from the 2005 set is presumably by The Ultimate Doomer, because the map resurfaced as E2M5 of Heretic Treasure Chest.

There's also yet another set of levels -- the loose files in the plutonia2 directory that aren't in p2b01may are different once more from the files in the compilation to a small degree. Among other things, there's a finished old MAP05, a different MAP07, MAP16, and MAP18 than the 2002 version, and a finished version of 2002's MAP19. Bit confusing and disorganized, all this. ;)


At any rate, my concerns about most of the maps never getting a release are rather diminished after seeing that most of them really aren't worth saving. Most of the good ones seem to have either been re-released or are working their way into other episodes (e.g. Joe's MAP15). The big exception might be the Szymanski map -- did it ever get a re-release?

Old Post 02-03-13 18:30 #
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Phml
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since I was déclassé to bring it up in the first place


Be it in English or in French, déclassé does not mean "lack of class", and in either language its actual meaning makes this sentence look ridiculous.

Old Post 02-03-13 19:04 #
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joepallai
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Xaser said:
At any rate, my concerns about most of the maps never getting a release are rather diminished after seeing that most of them really aren't worth saving. Most of the good ones seem to have either been re-released or are working their way into other episodes (e.g. Joe's MAP15). The big exception might be the Szymanski map -- did it ever get a re-release?


You know, I'm not really sure what ever happened to that Szymanski map. The rest of them have been or are being recycled by their authors.

Old Post 02-03-13 20:15 #
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joepallai
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I was looking for my nearly completed deathmatch maps for the Death Match Revival project on my old computer and found the last copies of PL2-23 as it was being developed. These aren't proper development sketches per se; but are printouts from various stages of my reworking of this level after the project was relaunched under the new management. (all of the early stuff has been shown). It will take about a week or so for me to finish printing these off, scan them and upload them. Thanks you all for the positive responses these have brought, Joe



Also, Map08 from PL2_01 (August 2002) was by Ebola initially then reworked by Sam before he gave it to me to fix the VPO's he introduced. (He had a habit of giving me maps with VPOs to fix as I am pretty good at that--I remember I started sector merging the 4 ceiling lights in the water filled passage). I never finished the map and don't remember where I left off.

Last edited by joepallai on 05-18-13 at 14:44

Old Post 05-18-13 14:36 #
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Urban Space Cowboy
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joepallai said:
It will take about a week or so for me to finish printing these off, scan them
Wait, print then scan? Why not just upload them directly? Are you a 70-year-old grandpa or something? :)

More seriously now: I'm going to guess you mean map 6 in p2l_01.wad, since that one starts in a water-flooded room, and map 8 is one of Gemini's maps that ended up in Hell Revealed II.

EDIT: Whoops, no, now I think you mean map 6 in pl2-06.zip and p2b01may.zip! Part of the description of changes ("Removed Visplane Overflow in upper hallway outside of bathroom(.) It turns out that it was the super-detailed lighting, along with the doorways and far window that was causing this. The lighting now matches the north-south hallway.") matches what you say. Pardon me. :(

Last edited by Urban Space Cowboy on 05-19-13 at 05:41

Old Post 05-19-13 03:00 #
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joepallai
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Urban Space Cowboy said:
Wait, print then scan? Why not just upload them directly? Are you a 70-year-old grandpa or something? :)

More seriously now: I'm going to guess you mean map 6 in p2l_01.wad, since that one starts in a water-flooded room, and map 8 is one of Gemini's maps that ended up in Hell Revealed II.

EDIT: Whoops, no, now I think you mean map 6 in pl2-06.zip and p2b01may.zip! Part of the description of changes ("Removed Visplane Overflow in upper hallway outside of bathroom(.) It turns out that it was the super-detailed lighting, along with the doorways and far window that was causing this. The lighting now matches the north-south hallway.") matches what you say. Pardon me. :(



I mean Map08 of P2L_01.wad dated 08/06/02. The area I remember doing the sector merging in is Sector 5 of that specific map. I don't have a zipfile with any attached texts on this for support as it was right before I bailed/drifted away.

70 year old grandpa.....grr...it's for my own sake that I'm printing these out then scanning. You'll just have to wait, sonny. :p

Old Post 05-19-13 06:55 #
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darkreaver
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Plutonia 3 plz.

More Gusta, me gusta. Plz.

Old Post 05-19-13 11:47 #
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Gusta
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:-D interesting topic. It's kind of cool that people can try the original pl2 alpha version(s) by Metabolist and the team. Those years ago when Method asked me if I can do something for pl2 project that Vince retook and sent me this alpha version ... I exactly remember my feelings after I played through those maps :-) ("Oh crap ... this will be damn hard work")

Old Post 05-20-13 12:46 #
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Urban Space Cowboy
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EDIT: Nah.

Last edited by Urban Space Cowboy on 05-20-13 at 20:54

Old Post 05-20-13 20:41 #
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joepallai
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Here are the first batch of final scans/printouts that I have of Aztecorum's development. I'll go in order and explain what's going on in each one. There's roughly 8-12 scans left to post and explain.

PL2-27 (Final) This is the finalized version of my original map 27 for Plutonia 2.

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/8748/plut227originalcomplete.jpg


The start is different with a nest of chaingunners along the western wall. There's two large outdoor areas to the east and northeast. The outdoor western side of the map is mostly empty and the yellow key exit door leads to two sets of lifts that end up eventually leading to the exit teleporter (I was never satisfied with this version's exit). The central section is filled with chaingunners perched up high on the western side of the map; driving the players east into the Plutonia Map02 inspired descending floor trap that leads to a short (?) cave section. This opens up to a huge outdoor area; that quite frankly I thought was one of the best parts of the map. Unfortunately, it had to go as I could find no easy way to reconnect it to the revamped version of the map.

P2-27A

https://imageshack.com/scaled/large/38/pl227aoriginalretexture.jpgUploaded with ImageShack.com

Here I start removing the exit area features that I couldn't stand: half of the pilllars are removed from the exit area; and the lifts have been exchanged with stairs. I also began removing stray, unused sectors from the center of the cavern section; as I began to rethink the map's route.

P2-27A1

http://imageshack.us/a/img401/9111/pl227a1originalretextur.jpg

This is mostly a retexturing job using the new resource wad; saved as a backup copy before I began cutting sections out. The start area has been finalized with the descending western wall.

P2-27A2

Here is where the real work began as I cut out major areas that weren't working. It was painful to be honest; but it seemed to be the easiest way for me to move forward with the map. The idea was to remove all of the narrow and constraining passages and make a new outdoor area that was more in line with the Casali's style.

http://imageshack.us/a/img28/169/pl227a21stmajorchange.jpg

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Last edited by joepallai on 07-03-13 at 21:58

Old Post 06-05-13 09:58 #
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joepallai
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I continue to cut out anything that I think isn't working. Here the room containing the blue key gets removed; along with an arch-vile trap; my southern balcony; and a monster closet off of the stairs north of the switch room that overlooked the blue key door area.


http://imageshack.us/a/img515/9840/pl227a22ndmajorchange.jpg


It took me two months of cutting out old sections before I had a good enough starting point to continue.

http://imageshack.us/a/img812/6249/pl227a33rdmajorchange.jpg




Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Old Post 06-09-13 02:44 #
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joepallai
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Okay time to wrap this up:

P2-27A6

https://imageshack.com/a/img402/5273/pl227a64thmajorchange.jpgUploaded with ImageShack.com

This is where I finally settled on what to keep from the original map.

P2-27A5

https://imageshack.com/a/img819/6742/p227a55thmajorchangeout.jpgUploaded with ImageShack.com

I start the northern area here; the rooms are large BSTONE1 interior areas at this time.

P2-27A6A

https://imageshack.com/a/img22/3366/p227a6amidsectiondevelo.jpgUploaded with ImageShack.com

The central area begins to take shape.

P2-27A6B

https://imageshack.com/a/img834/4207/p227a6bnorthareaforming.jpgUploaded with ImageShack.com

More work on the northern area; here I've finally decided to make this an outdoor area.

P2-27A7A

https://imageshack.com/a/img109/6220/p227a7aoutdoorsexperime.jpgUploaded with ImageShack.com

this is one of my experiments to see if I could salvage more of the original map. I also do these types of exercises whenever I get really stuck as it can give me ideas to work off of.

Old Post 07-03-13 22:21 #
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joepallai
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almost done

P2-27C1

https://imageshack.com/a/img33/2099/p227c1eastsideexperimen.jpgUploaded with ImageShack.com

Another variation that I tried to reuse bits of the original map.

P2-27C1B

https://imageshack.com/a/img843/9454/p227c1b75.jpgUploaded with ImageShack.com

The map is about 80% done here. The outdoor area and the exit area are under construction at this time.

P2-27C1C

https://imageshack.com/a/img822/2685/p227c1c85.jpgUploaded with ImageShack.com

The yellow door building is done and I've started to finish the large outdoor area to the west.

P2-27D1B

https://imageshack.com/a/img59/1239/p227d1b88.jpgUploaded with ImageShack.com

The outdoor area is starting to form into shapes that I like.

P2-27D1A

https://imageshack.com/a/img543/834/p227d1a90complete.jpgUploaded with ImageShack.com

The map is basically done here; it just needs playtesting.

three months later...

https://imageshack.com/a/img823/2675/p227d1c95.jpgUploaded with ImageShack.com

The map is completed and sent off to the team for signoff. A few days later after some minor tweaks/missed textures the map is officially done by me. Gusta and Vincent then adjusted the difficulty settings before the final release.

Old Post 07-03-13 22:46 #
joepallai is offline Profile || Blog || PM || Email || Search || Add Buddy IP || Edit/Delete || Quote
Springy
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Posts: 1334
Registered: 09-12


An amazing set of sketches, it's really nice to see the process that went behind the creation of your maps for Plutonia 2. I might have to start sketching layouts as I can see that helping me. Thank you for sharing these.

Old Post 07-03-13 23:40 #
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