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j4rio
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Oh and I was rather serious about


j4rio said:
You might consider removing WR linedefs opening and closing doors in map 11 (tagged 3 and 7). In case you manage to skip linedef (likely in speedruns), you can't open the door manually yourself.


Here are fdas for 11-20. Note that 11 fda (it's around 2 hours long) to see what I mean. It happened twice, maybe more times.

http://filesmelt.com/dl/chestfour-fda11to20-j4.zip

Old Post 07-29-12 20:06 #
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The Green Herring
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That reminds me of something I forgot to add to the changelog, but have done so now:

* In case you skip any of their associated linedefs, the auto-opening doors can now be opened manually. [July 28, 2012]
I find that going "erase, erase, erase" isn't always the best option.

Also, edit to respond to this:

JadeWK said:
CC4 was started in 2007
You mean 2008.

Last edited by The Green Herring on 07-29-12 at 20:33

Old Post 07-29-12 20:13 #
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Dutch Doomer
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I think I started somwhere in 2008 on this map, it was never released, though I might have released a test version in the past. I'm alwasy trying to improve, nothing wrong with setting the bar higher for yourself right. One day I create the perfect wad :p

Old Post 07-29-12 20:25 #
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Capellan
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Phml said:
The switch iself can hardly be seen due to the pillars blocking the view, just doublechecked ingame - you see some white in the wall and perhaps a bit of red if you happen to stand at very specific locations, that's about it.

I don't think I ran into health issues. My point was the health (and the ammo) is scattered to the four winds, forcing you to hunt every little crook and nanny if you need either, slowing down the pace to a crawl, making it feel like a pointless timesink.



If TGH wants to tweak the bars and switch so the latter is more visible, I've certainly got no objection.

Interesting comment about the ammo. I've always tended to put ammo and health in corners or against walls, because if they're in the middle of the room it's like Doom code for "trap" :)

Old Post 07-29-12 21:54 #
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dew
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more FDAs from me, this time maps 16 to 21: http://www.mediafire.com/?ztypcdyk39fjnur

map16: i hated this. i refused to fight all those strong monsters with just cg and sg, so i just killed those few hitscanners and started my own metagame where i just provoked infights. opening the door for the cyb to kill everything was really tedious, but kinda funny. it's REALLY not a good idea to require the player to either kill monsters tediously, or go explore the map with cacos threatening to block him in any corner he sits in for a while. or even worse, attempt those bamboo stick runs while under fire, ugh. my fun ended when the HK invasion wave killed the cyb. :( it becomes trivial with actual weapons, but getting them is just too damn annoying. also there's nothing to do in building I, so that's just ARedHerring and player needs to go to II instead. way to confuse me when there are monsters chasing me and i have just a stupid SG.

and then there's the wave with archviles on walls. well, that was challenging enough to be the end battle, but there just has to be one more with viles directly going after you, right? that's just too mean and utterly NOT FUN.

and the worst part - obtaining BK. i spent twenty minutes on it, not kidding, and i didn't quit just to prove a point. so the demo is 20 minutes longer because of it. i swear this is going to make many people just idkfa, idclip or even idclev17. :PPPP it's too damn hard, it makes naturaltvventy's worst platforming scenarios look easy. it seriously underestimates doomguy's inertia. and there's a way to make those easier for the sake of less masochistic players, but it's unannounced and extremely well hidden?! that's not helpful in the slightest!

i absolutely hate this map because of the trolling it unleashed upon me. people with strong stomachs should do a sanity check if it's not just me being lame, but i recommend anyone else to just avoid this like wildfire.


map17: aaand it doesn't get much better. not only is the map way to symmetrical, it also overuses switch hunting just to have people traverse the same old rooms with refilled walking hitpoints to kill. with the stupid lousy ssg/cg. it's really, really, really tedious to drop all the opposition, especially since it's so nonthreatening. well, it's quite threatening the first time you go up the stairs in the central room (to open the RK side), because all the chainers and HKs just guarantee you can't come back down and have to _tediously_ spam them from above with weak weapons.

and then archviles join the fun and it becomes an utter nightmare. i died in the last fight and didn't bother to restart or reload or anything, because the fight is just incredibly unfair. you're in a small room with many walls to make the RL unusable, the monsters spawn quite close... so it becomes a hopeless ssg last stand before the barons corner you or the vile snipes you.

i guess nothing can be done with the symmetry, but the map needs the RL as soon as the SSG... AND plasma to speed things up and definitely the bfg too, both to speed things even further (yes, it's that boring to nibble at those hordes with the ssg) and to unridicule the final fight.


map18: i was ready to drop this map into the same pit of hate like the previous two, because i was still angry and the map played two dirty tricks on me in close sequence, but jimmy says the second one was actually a bug, heh. playing it the second time (SDA) proved much more fun, this is great fun to explore. a massive adventure in good cchest tradition.

the bridges are a little silly though, as they trap monsters between them. also i hated the soulsphere secret on the boat, i just couldn't catch the stupid gate, heh. a bit more time for us clumsy people, pls!

the rest of the important stuff was relayed over irc already. :P


map19: clever little deathtrap, isn't it. i agree with phml that it goes a bit too far with unfairness. even the start area - does the player really have to be caged WITH alert monsters around AND a shootable switch start? i died immediatelly as i started the map, because monsters destroyed me before i could realize what was going on.

the cybermaze in the mine is great, but please block the way into that little corridor - i thought i should go there and got stuck there with ineffective weapons and the cybs roaming at the entrance. i got out eventually, but it's just a needless complication.

then i died in the cyb trap, of course. that's just way too unfair. :P i gave up, cause i wasn't in the mood to trial&error my way through the FDA. it'd work great with save&load, i think.


maps20-21: i... uh... wow. my virtual hat is off and i add a gentlemanly bow. this was such a pleasant way to kill an hour or so. :)

one minor bug: in map21, just one of the cybies telepored from that long closet (they appear after reaching RK), the other skipped the linedef and there are no redundancies or safety mechanisms. the cybs are teleported asleep and the first one didn't see or hear me, so he stayed on the destination spot long enough for the second to go past the linedef. at least that's how i internally explained to myself what happened.

Old Post 07-29-12 22:41 #
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Keeper of Jericho
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dew said:
more FDAs from me, this time maps 16 to 21: http://www.mediafire.com/?ztypcdyk39fjnur

map16: i hated this. i refused to fight all those strong monsters with just cg and sg, so i just killed those few hitscanners and started my own metagame where i just provoked infights. opening the door for the cyb to kill everything was really tedious, but kinda funny. it's REALLY not a good idea to require the player to either kill monsters tediously, or go explore the map with cacos threatening to block him in any corner he sits in for a while. or even worse, attempt those bamboo stick runs while under fire, ugh. my fun ended when the HK invasion wave killed the cyb. :( it becomes trivial with actual weapons, but getting them is just too damn annoying. also there's nothing to do in building I, so that's just ARedHerring and player needs to go to II instead. way to confuse me when there are monsters chasing me and i have just a stupid SG.



It's not my fault most people around here seem to refuse to play with saves so you carry over weapons, or save & reload for the platforming so you don't have to run across the entire map over and over if you fall. That's how I play and so that's how I make my maps. Now I don't know how you personally play, of course, with saving or without, but I'm speaking in general. Also, it's not the first map in the wad, so logically you won't play it with pistol start.

I made it playable from pistol start, but it's not the way it's meant to be played. It's part of a megawad, people! If it was a single, stand-alone map, then yeah, I'd be more understanding about the complaints of the start fight. But it's not a stand-alone map. It's map 16 of a megawad, by this point you should have a full arsenal already.

Same with the pole-running. It's tricky, sure, and if you keep running all across the map back to the teleporter to try again, then yeah, it's tedious. But that's your choice. Whenever I play that part, I save at the start of the sequence, and if I fail, I reload, and in doing so I get past those parts quickly and with ease. People want to play without saves? Be my guest, but then it's not my fault if it's tedious. I designed those parts with the use of saving in mind. If you don't play with saves, that's your choice, but I'd hardly call it a flaw of the map itself. Yeah, I understand it's frustrating for speedrunners and demos, but I can't keep every play style in mind while designing my maps.

It's not the best map I ever made, I freely admit, but given that it was a speedmap made on a deadline, I'm still satisfied with how it turned out.

Old Post 07-29-12 23:20 #
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j4rio
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That's a terrible argument.

Old Post 07-29-12 23:30 #
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Phml
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Platforming balanced around saves and reloads... Heh. Sorry, that's just... Heh.

There's times (most of the time, really) I'm willing to accept my opinions on game design are just that and other opinions, opposite opinions, are just as valid.

Here, however, I can say with absolute certainty you are wrong.

Making the map with the assumption the player has played everything in continuous play with saves in a wad where every other map is balanced for pistol starts ranks up there as well... Are you suggesting players should significantly cheapen the experience on thirty other maps just so they can experience yours as it's meant to be?

Old Post 07-29-12 23:30 #
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Doohnibor
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Map 06 right after passing through the red door. turn around and look up > missaligned Texture.

AWESOME MAP!

Old Post 07-29-12 23:31 #
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Xaser
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Pardon my interruption, but how exactly can you balance a single map for anything but a pistol start without having a finished copy of every previous map handy? At risk of sounding rude, the gist of KoJ's post to me is "I didn't balance my map properly". Despite its speedmapped origins, you've got time to tweak it a bit now, so all's not lost.

Old Post 07-29-12 23:35 #
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j4rio
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Or replace it with degrassi.

*wink*

Old Post 07-29-12 23:47 #
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Capellan
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Memfis said:
06 - Very cool to see Adam Windsor back and kicking ass again. My favorite thing about this map is the secrets. You don't just find some goodies in them, you also open the secret passages that simplify the navigation for you. Nice touch.



I'm not sure that doing one map in the last two years really counts as "back", though I am playing Doom on a semi-regular basis (or I was, until I got Skyrim in the Steam Summer Sale and it ate my life).

Opening up passages as you find secrets was mostly a multiplayer thing; an attempt to support all three play modes (as I try to do). It gives more ways to get around in DM, and (hopefully) helps co-op players avoid the 'conga line' they sometimes get stuck in.

Old Post 07-30-12 00:04 #
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Keeper of Jericho
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Xaser said:
Pardon my interruption, but how exactly can you balance a single map for anything but a pistol start without having a finished copy of every previous map handy? At risk of sounding rude, the gist of KoJ's post to me is "I didn't balance my map properly". Despite its speedmapped origins, you've got time to tweak it a bit now, so all's not lost.


You have all the ammo needed to get 100% kills and still have enough ammo to spare from pistol start. For me it's balanced, and the map's done. The map's completely doable from pistol start as well. I always make sure they are. But I have no problem with the opening fight, for me it's good as it is. You have plenty of cover, you have your ammo, you have sufficient weapons to survive. Still too hard? Then lower the difficulty so there are less monsters, or play the wad in order (like we all did when we had no clue what idclev was) so you have more weapons when you start out. Same with the platforming. Tip: don't run, normal walking and strafing has a much higher chance of success. I can do the blue key walk in 1 go, and if I can do it there's no reason other people can't. Still too hard? Then save or find the secret switch in building 1 (left door). If someone has all the necesary tools to make a playthrough easier, but choses not to use them, then in my opinion I'm not to blame, sorry.

Last edited by Keeper of Jericho on 07-30-12 at 00:43

Old Post 07-30-12 00:17 #
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Processingcontrol
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Why was JadeWK losered? Was it another Brandon D Lade account?

Old Post 07-30-12 01:37 #
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The Green Herring
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It was. No one else in the CC4 testing team would create an account for the sole purpose of posting in this thread unless they were attempting a ban evasion.

Anyway, an update shall be released every Monday. Stay tuned!

Old Post 07-30-12 01:42 #
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hawkwind
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Here's some more. Still slowly slugging through it ...

map 03 ...

T65 should be moved further north or south, off the line as it overhangs depending on player position.

map 04 ...

1. Flag line 2907 "secret".
2. The floor and ceiling of sector 630 don't look right to me - floor and ceiling flats.

map 05 ...

1. What was the purpose of having sectors 34 and 685 have a floor level of -1 ? Why not 0 and have the midgoth3 and midwinde textures just lower unpegged and no Y offset ?
2. T163 and T164 are blocking sprites. Is this intended ?
3. Crusher sound cannot be heard when silent teleporting to line 4232.
4. Ceiling of sector 918, 1203 and 1204 might look better with GRAYFLA1.

map 06 ...

1. Ceilings of sector 210 really should have had a wood grain flat. There are a few in this pwad.
2. Ceiling of sectors 303/304 should have had SUP5XX_F to match flor IMO.


map07 ...

Lines 2321, 438, 441, 444 could be flagged "secret".

map 08 ...

1.Line 4056, 3727, 4465, 3995 could be flagged "secret".
2. Both Risen3D and GlBoom+ have an issue with sector 417. Risen3D just renders either a solid ice wall or sky. GlBoom+ does not render the sprites on the other side of the "wall". I could not fix the GlBoom+ issue but the Risen3D issue is quite fixable. The solution for Risen3D is to have sector 417 a fake sector. Have sector 417 have a floor/ceiling height of -40. Make a control sector with a floor height of -80 and a ceiliing height of -40, same floor and ceiling flats of sector 417 and a brightness of 144. Give one of the control sector's lines the linetype 242, tag it and tag sector 417 the same tag number. This probably should have been done in the first place, since this is a boom compat. wad.
3. Is it intentional that the current of sectors 644/645 run in opposite directions ?
4. There are still a number of control sectors that still show up in the automap when the computer map is picked up.
5. Wrong ceiling flat for sector 672 - should be FLA5_4T.
6. I only managed to get 15 of the 16 secrets ( and that with quite a lot of editor cheating ).

map 09 ...

1. Wrong ceiling flat sectors 421/422. Should be RROCK12M ?
2. Flag lines 3572, 11638 "secret", and lines 11642, 11640 and 11639 "hidden"..

Last edited by hawkwind on 07-30-12 at 04:49

Old Post 07-30-12 03:37 #
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[WH]-Wilou84
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Keeper of Jericho said:
Still too hard?

Hard != tedious.


hawkwind said:
map 09 ...

1. Wrong ceiling flat sectors 421/422. Should be RROCK12M ?
2. Flag lines 3572, 11638 "secret", and lines 11642, 11640 and 11639 "hidden"..

Yep, good catches. TGH, can you fix that for me please ?

A pity the FDAs will desync, though. They've been very entertaining to watch. :)

Old Post 07-30-12 06:50 #
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hawkwind
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[WH]-Wilou84 said:
A pity the FDAs will desync, though. They've been very entertaining to watch. :)


Maybe not if the nodes are not rebuilt.

Old Post 07-30-12 08:28 #
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Keeper of Jericho
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[WH]-Wilou84 said:
Hard != tedious.



Be that as it may, it's still subjective and a matter of opinion.

Old Post 07-30-12 12:49 #
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hawkwind
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map 10 ...

Just some minor stuff for map 10 ...

1. Line 2813 could have used an x alignment.
2. Line 5511 could be flagged "secret".

map 11 ...

1. This map has the computer map pickup which reveals many control sectors. The lines of these sectors should be flagged "hidden".
2. Sector 948 and 976 should have been fake sectors. With Risen3D, these ceilings do not at present get flood filled when crossing line 11159.

... still on map 11, hopefully I won't find anything else.

Last edited by hawkwind on 07-30-12 at 14:17

Old Post 07-30-12 12:59 #
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Dutch Doomer
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All maps should be playable from pistol start, just my opinion. It would have been better if this was a standard rule mappers should stick to.

Had a quick look at some maps further in this set, there are some pretty awsome maps later on. Especically the ones from Luppinx Kassman.

Old Post 07-30-12 20:02 #
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Processingcontrol
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I think all maps should be playable from a pistol start, but still not too easy when played with pickups from previous levels. I think megawads should be designed to be initially played through continuously, and pistol starting being an extra challenge.

Old Post 07-30-12 20:39 #
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Evolution
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Hey guys, make sure to check Thursday Night Survival this week for some extreme public beta playtesting.

I've ran through a few maps and browsed every other; Never enjoyed taking screenies so much. I took 80+ screens and could only narrow the amount I'm happy with down to 40! Fantastic effort so far from one hell of a mapping team. We plan to split the maplist in half and run through the rest next week so nothing should get overlooked.

Hope it helps and hope to see you all at the sesh!
(EDIT: ZDaemon Thursday Night Survival - CChest 4 omg!!!)

Last edited by Evolution on 08-01-12 at 21:31

Old Post 07-30-12 20:41 #
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The Green Herring
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As promised, here is the second public beta of Community Chest 4. It features every change made between July 27 and the MAP10/MAP11 changes made on July 30, as listed in the opening post of this thread. Most notably, MAP16 should now be playable from a pistol start for most players and its pole-running sequences should be easier to handle. I would've used esselfortium's webspace again, but he hasn't shown up yet, so until he does, you can download it from the SendSpace link below:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/0w1tam

Have fun!

Old Post 07-30-12 22:43 #
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Keeper of Jericho
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The Green Herring said:
Most notably, MAP16 should now be playable from a pistol start for most players and its pole-running sequences should be easier to handle. [/url]

Have fun!

I hate to say it, but I feel map 16 has actually gotten worse instead of better.

I really don't get why the ssg and chaingun have been replaced with a soulsphere and a mega-armor. I mean, you get a free megasphere at the start of the map, ensuring you have 200% of everything when you start. You get a free soulsphere in building 3, and a free mega-armor in building 2. There's a ton of health in Building 1. Now we're giving them even more free armour and health? =/

I also think placing the ssg and chaingun inside the buildings makes the battle even harder, because now you're forced to go inside to get those necesary weapons in pistol start, allowing the monsters to trap you inside. If anything, it should be harder now from pistol start instead of easier. I tested it myself: by the time I'd grabbed the guns, the cacodemons already blocked my exit path, meaning I had to face the entire hord of mancubi, imps, demons, revenants and cacos inside that room, instead of outside where I would have had a wide open space to manouver and dodge. I'd have left the weapon placement as it was. The map already was playable from pistol start when I sent it in. If the opening fight really is too hard, I personally would suggest to remove some of the monsters, perhaps a couple of the cacodemons. Or provide some extra shells and bullets outside, so you don't have to go inside and risk getting trapped until you've gotten rid of some of the nasty beasties.

And the pole-sequences now look really bad to the eye, especially since the red key poles have remained untouched. If it bothers people that much, then fine, scratch the pole-running and simply replace them with the poles from the red key. At least it'll keep looking nice that way, and nobody will complain anymore. I'd prefer that to the current solution, personally.

Just my 2 cents.

Last edited by Keeper of Jericho on 07-30-12 at 23:27

Old Post 07-30-12 23:13 #
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Khaoscythe
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MAP 16:

Keep in mind these are my thoughts before TGH uploaded the latest CC4.2 beta so I have not touched the newer version of this map yet.

From my experience with this map it is, indeed, possible from a pistol start standpoint. With the SSG and CG gained from outside you have just enough ammo to kill everything on the map before you start activating switches in any of the buildings. The only gripe that has already been addressed is the platform hopping to the keys. Well not so much the red key, the yellow key section caused me to have to switch to the Turok-style map overlay <since I primarily play (G)ZDooM ports> to get across it...and this was after I killed everything with just the SSG (so this would be the lucksack factor of the map when demo-recording for speedruns, as you can easily get blasted off and having to retry multiple times).

Besides that one nuance this map is indeed doable. The only tough encounters would be the HK swarm and the Archies that come in after hitting the switch in the Rev/AV/CGer building. Tough map but not impossible in it's former state. I'll look into the new version of the beta now.


Getting to Map 27:

Two problems came about in the final blue key area (the massive area with the pillars). One of the Lost Souls in the alcove left and above where you first enter don't seem to react to the sound of gunshots and remains immobile up there (only after I IDCLIP'd and went up there did it finally move). Also, one of the Caco's that are supposed to come out of the ceiling alcoves (the alcove to the furthest right of where you first enter this area) stays stuck due to it constantly attempting to move forward (impassible linedef perhaps). The only way THAT Caco could come out of there is when I IDCLIP'd and allowed it to follow me along the back end of that opening where it actually COULD come down.

Besides that I suffered no problems with the rest of the map. One minor quirk would be the Megasphere secret, that shootable switch can be quite tedious at times...found myself wasting a good deal of shells at one point trying to hit it due to the erratic nature of the SSG spread.

Old Post 07-30-12 23:50 #
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Chex Warrior
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Map 10 just reinforces my habit to save all plasma ammo until you really really need it. Loved the map dutch, very very cool.

Old Post 07-31-12 01:49 #
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Tormentor667
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Instant Cacoward <3

Old Post 07-31-12 07:47 #
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hawkwind
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map 11 cont. using cc4pbeta2 ...

1. Was sector 1960 meant to look like a narrow crevice ?
2. Sector tag 68 can be removed from sector 1960.
3. SLIME01 on sectors 1784 and 1781 does 20% damage, but adjoining SLIME1 does 10% damage.
4. Wrong ceiling flat for sector 195. It should be DIAMOND4 and the brigtness changed to 96.
5. I think the ceiling flat for sector 301 would look better with FLAT5_4.
6. I think the ceiling flat for sector 1081 would look better with RROCK09.
7. I think WOOD6 would look better for the lowers of lines 16592, 7212, 16588 and 16632.

Old Post 07-31-12 08:25 #
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dew
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secret maps and map22 FDAs recorded on the first version: http://www.mediafire.com/?5nupzo9dnss9nnb
maps 23-25 recorded on beta2: http://www.mediafire.com/?i68cdll2cqo1r4b


map31: weird one, but hey, we're in the weird zone, so i'll take it. good secrets for the most part, but that invisible alcove was a bit too much, imo. how about a hint on the automap? perhaps a missing wall line?


map32: even weirder. like, one of the weirdest maps i've ever played. i gave up on the FDA after quick two deaths and i played the map with saveloading, because this would be ridiculous to restart all the time in true FDA style. fun to explore, funny how "patchwork" the map looks.


map22: hmmm. a switch hunt over the same rooms with new alcoves opening all the time... feels like a filler map, tbh. most of the fights are just by the numbers population of random hallways. the one at YSK bars was great, the one in the nukage room was at least challenging, the cyb fight is only hard if he keeps you from running up the elevator, then he's dead easily. i missed the bfg secret by units, but damn... switch press on completely unmarked piece of wall? or is the wooden backside supposed to hint at it? that's a bit odd. also the invis secret has to be the only marbleface on the map i didn't press, heh. god i hate when people use gargoyle faces as decoration, i just gotta press them all. and then shoot them. and press again just to be sure. just occassionally intriguing map because of poor challenge.


map23: the map is a bit weird, but i like walter's kind of weird (usually). in my fda i died in the flesh dungeon, because i flinched away from the archvile tunnel and got stuck on some architecture with revenants punching me from both sides. that's very unfair, considering how awkward movement is in there with all the sharp corners. i'd put the linedef triggering the revenants into the archvile's little cave - and un-deaf them, because once it's played correctly (=preknowledge, boo), they get picked one by one. put the player in, then release the revs on him. plasma action go.

also i didn't like how you return to the valley area - the cybie was SO menacing up there, but now he's just spamming into a cliff while you plasma him to death from a safe place. it'd totally kick ass to teleport the player down again, or on one of the levels where the cybie would actually mean anything dangerous. perhaps he could teleport down to the player during this revisit.

and the final battle is silly. first the monsters just block your access into the arena and you spam them (FOR SOOOOO LONG, SO MUCH HP TO EAT THROUGH!) as they get funneled through the tiny, tiny entrance, then you get a harmless cybie with a completely redundant switch to press. you can press linedef 3011 from above, but i don't see why the switch is even there - why not just have the first switch to do the job? also i'd totally want to see that monster horde infight with the cybie - and perhaps with the player in the arena as well, not locked out in the entrance cave, because the monsters simply won't let him in.

otherwise i enjoyed this map.


map24: atmospheric/realistic infested techbase with a strong zdoom feel, huh? well, it works for me a lot better than map15, although pure gameplay isn't the strongest point. :P it's definitely lovely to look at and the big explosion effect was really neat! the cybie fight was pretty good, too, although backpedaling/strafing was rather annoying with all the decorative architecture in the way. that could be the point, though.

what rrrreally annoyed me was the backtracking from the big explosion to... a small door somewhere at the other side of the (now empty) map. tssssk. either do something with the map for the return trip (add more "exploded" parts, hint a way back with changed lighting, repopulate the path back) or just teleport player back to the base entrance. i had NO idea where i was supposed to go and it really damages the immersion this map relies on.

also the final cave area was rather weak challenge-wise. it could use spicing up with perhaps another cyb, this time with the BFG. :)


map25: another rather classic by-the-numbers, room-by-room map. the outside fight with revs and cacos was cool, but otherwise there wasn't much challenge in the rest of the map.

why are the soulsphere and the blue armor in the southwestern part tagged as secret? can you even miss them?

the switches in the easternmost arena are rather inconspicous, i just didn't notice they were on all the pillars, it took some automap studying to find them. tbh, i think you should do just ONE switch that will release all of the monsters at once AND starts building the stairs, heh. one big fight instead of these weak mini-fights, the invul is wasted on them. the bfg is secret, but it's really easy to find, so it could work that way for all players.

oh and there's a lot of control sectors that need hiding on the automap.


by the way, that's an issue i had in maps 22, 24 and 25 - there's a lot of "active" linedefs on the automap, but they do nothing, they're just monster closets to be opened later, or they use a translucency effect, or something similar. looking at the automap is both confusing (when looking for doors or secrets) and mood-killing (when realizing those are monster closets). can't they look normal on the automap?

also i played the updated map16 and i consider it a serious improvement. :P

Old Post 07-31-12 18:46 #
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