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mouldy
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Posts: 1105
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So I've beeen making my first map and reached the point where other people need to play it and tell me whats right and wrong with it. Its boom compatible and uses doom 2.

Here's a link to download:
http://www.mediafire.com/?bk30j5xnigbz993

Its called bad blood - it has blood, whether its bad or not I shall let you decide. Mainly I'm wondering about the difficulty, its hard to say how easy/hard it is when you know it inside out. I've been testing it on ultraviolence, I figure I should find out what people think before sorting out easier settings.

Some pictures:
http://i.cr3ation.co.uk/dl/s1/jpg/847032b8a331def77529b6a0384db1fe_doomscreen6.jpg

http://i.cr3ation.co.uk/dl/s1/jpg/847032b8a331def77529b6a0384db1fe_doomscreen5.jpg

http://i.cr3ation.co.uk/dl/s1/jpg/847032b8a331def77529b6a0384db1fe_doomscreen2.jpg

I'm after honest opinions - corridors too tight? not enough ammo/health? traps too harsh? Confusing to navigate? I'm still learning this stuff so open to all criticism.

Last edited by mouldy on 03-23-13 at 13:53

Old Post 08-26-12 00:55 #
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LkMax
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The map layout is pretty good and well detailed, but the number of monsters is way too big to deal with only a shotgun and a chaingun. One thing I can say for sure: nobody will say your map is too easy. (EDIT: Later you find more weapons, so scrap that).

Do you plan for do an episode or mini-episode? I really liked your mapping style despite my average skills. :-)

Last edited by LkMax on 08-26-12 at 05:59

Old Post 08-26-12 02:06 #
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BloodyAcid
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Let's see: First attempt: 1 death (dat rocket), 98% kills, 50% items, 75% secrets.

The Good:
-Very good for a beginner's map. Detailing was surprisingly nice in some areas. Realllllllly well designed final fight.
-The techbase/hell theme was pulled off decently.
-The traps were placed well, with just enough ammo.
-The secrets (that I found) were hinted at nicely, but a little obvious.
-Good use of crates, unlike many beginner maps.
-Good pacing and backtracking

The Bad:
-Many texture alignment mistakes everywhere, especially with the rock and startan.
-A few too many ammo boxes for my taste.
-Some corridors lacked detail (revenant and soulsphere secret). Finding the BFG made it a little too easy; you could knock out the final cyberdemon moments after it emerges since it can't shoot while coming up.
-The themes were a little hectic, mainly in the cave areas. I thought that there were a few too many colour variations for a simple cavern. For example, look at the third posted screenshot. There is a mixture of the default startan/wooden ceiling, where I'm pretty sure there aren't supposed to be any.
-I expected a little more from the cacodemon cavern, other than two openings spweing out cacodemons at a snail's pace.

For the future:
-Make sure to align your textures >:C
-Try mixing up hitscanners and projectiles for a more dynamic fight. Sure, hitscanners die quickly, but they're very deadly. (For example, after the yellow skull trap, you could spawn a few chaingunners on the cliffs)

Old Post 08-26-12 02:38 #
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mouldy
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Cool cheers for the feedback.

LkMax: I tried to make it not so linear at the start, although that long room might be a bit much if you didn't search out the ssg and rocket launcher first... I might tone the enemies down a bit for hurt me plenty. I'll probably have a go at some more maps, really enjoyed making this one.

BloodyAcid: Excellent feedback, thanks. I raced a bit to get it all working so missed a lot of texture stuff, can't believe I even took a screenshot with some default textures still on! Will be fixing all that.

When I was testing it I kept running out of ammo at the beginning so kept adding shells. Be interested to hear what other people think of the ammo situation.

Agree some corridors are a bit lacking. I'm glad you found some of the secrets, I didn't really want them to be too obscure, although the BFG should be a bit harder to find I think. I was toying with the idea of beefing up the final battle if the bfg was found, I might do that.

Cave areas are a bit of a mix of textures agreed, I always hated uniform looking caves but think I went over the top there.

Would be nice of those cacodemons came out a bit faster or something else happened in there, i guess that bit is also a bit easy if you found the bfg as well.

I found that yellow key fight a bit harsh myself. I might try your suggestion adding snipers and slow the big monsters appearing. I wanted those pillars to be useful as cover but they aren't much good when everything is appearing at once all around.

Old Post 08-26-12 11:00 #
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Chex Warrior
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Just wanted to say that this map was a lot of fun, the fights were intense, yet fair. I liked the detail you used but in many places it almost seemed like there was too much, many of the tech areas struck me as "noisy".

P.S. That archvile should really teleport into that cave maze instead of going into that cage in the central area. That would've been very scary.

Make more maps!

Old Post 08-26-12 18:34 #
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mouldy
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cheers chex. I was hoping that vile would catch people out when they exit the caves but you might be right about it causing more drama in the caves.

I've learned a lot about map making from this, will definitely be making more.

Old Post 08-26-12 21:47 #
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SFoZ911
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Not bad for a first run, in terms of gameplay and pacing.

really liked the last fight room, it was really nice and fresh.

nothing really negative to say, really. I enjoyed it alot.

Old Post 08-26-12 23:12 #
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Memfis
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Excellent work, good piece of classic doom experience. Very nice design. Here is a demo of my playthrough: DL

Some notes:
- Things 71-76 are stuck in each other.
- Some health and ammo pickups are hard to avoid. This can be annoying because, for example, I don't want to pick up a box of shells when I already have 49/50 shells.
- Monsters can get up on sectors 740-742, which looks rather silly. You can prevent this by using "block monster" flag.
- I think that there is way too much plasma and rocket ammo, at least if you find most secrets. The room with BFG and 4 big cell packs is definitely an overkill.
- It seems that you don't know the most popular (and easiest) way to make monster closets. This is how it works. So, no need to make them see the player before teleporting.
- I would group all yellow bars in one sector (so the player wouldn't have to press on every bar)

Old Post 08-26-12 23:28 #
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mouldy
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Excellent, thanks for the demo memfis, really cool seeing someone else playing through it.

Those monster closets I used are pretty clunky, cheers for the tip. I think i heard one of the hell knights stuck in one as well - still its all part of the learning process. I think you are right about the ammo and health getting in the way, this being my first go at it I totally misjudged the width of platforms and corridors.

And cheers to SFoZ911 for playing through it as well.

Old Post 08-27-12 00:14 #
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Ribbiks
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fun map, here's a demo: http://www.speedyshare.com/ctWeJ/badblood1FDA-ribks.lmp

aside from the aforementioned closets and enemies stuck on eachother, my only gripe is that some of the terrain is pretty awkward. All the little height variations and pointy walls can make it a pain to move around, this was most noticeable in the cave area by the RL, or in the caco room.

I want to say though that the final room was amazing looking, very pretty detailing.

Old Post 08-27-12 02:48 #
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dobu gabu maru
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Played it. Excellent job, I can tell you put a lot of work into it! I didn't find any of the themes/textures clashing, didn't think any of the corridors were too narrow, and thought the enemy placement was definitely well though-out.

Ammo was damn tight. Nearly ran out before I got to the arachnatron in the cargo area down and thought I was going to have to play fisticuffs with him. I liked it though, as I'm perfectly okay with the more "survival" type maps, although Pain Elementals need to be used wisely since they can suck munitions down very quickly. Health on the other hand, was too rare for the first half of the map. I was running through the caves on a save where I had 20% health 8 shells, and that was probably the most difficult part of the map for me. This would probably work very well in a megawad where a player can carry over his weapons.

Also, some of the arenas were great. The outdoors arena (with the plasma gun) was fun, albeit a tad easy (Memfis's idea of the chaingunners would work well), and my favorite is probably the cacodemon room. This is mainly because you use the height of the floor against the player, since they're forced to use rockets and one misfire can send it into a stair nearby. It was one of the few times I felt like I had to fight cacos methodically. And of course the cyber arena is jaw dropping and small enough that he poses a threat the whole time.

My only serious critique, although this isn't something you have to change if you were intending this, is that the final cargo area fight is pretty sloppy. Due to the small nature of the room, and the fact that it's a platforming heavy area, it's difficult to fight any enemies in it due to the lack of space. I had to pull the cacos and PE out into the previous room to fight them, which wasn't much fun.

One other small thing I noticed is that you have a W1 trigger near the end (towards the second archville) that reveals a PE and chaingunner, but when you know the trap is coming, it becomes extremely easy to just backpedal and blast them from afar. I'd consider changing it to a fast door open W1 trigger so that the player is forced to move foward, since any floor trigger happens very slowly.

Keep mapping though. Also consider joining the NOVA project if you want some more feedback... plus it'd be neat to have one of your maps included in.

Old Post 08-27-12 06:52 #
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mouldy
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Ribbiks said:

aside from the aforementioned closets and enemies stuck on eachother, my only gripe is that some of the terrain is pretty awkward. All the little height variations and pointy walls can make it a pain to move around, this was most noticeable in the cave area by the RL, or in the caco room.



Cheers for the demo and the feedback, much appreciated. I agree about the caves being a bit awkward, I found myself snagging on walls a bit (they used to be even thinner!). The caco room was meant to be a bit of an awkward fight but I might adjust that a bit as it annoys me too sometimes.


dobugabumaru said:

My only serious critique, although this isn't something you have to change if you were intending this, is that the final cargo area fight is pretty sloppy. Due to the small nature of the room, and the fact that it's a platforming heavy area, it's difficult to fight any enemies in it due to the lack of space. I had to pull the cacos and PE out into the previous room to fight them, which wasn't much fun.

One other small thing I noticed is that you have a W1 trigger near the end (towards the second archville) that reveals a PE and chaingunner, but when you know the trap is coming, it becomes extremely easy to just backpedal and blast them from afar. I'd consider changing it to a fast door open W1 trigger so that the player is forced to move foward, since any floor trigger happens very slowly.



Yeah that crate room last fight was meant to be a bit chaotic, if i was designing that room again though I would make the platforms a little wider so you can get around more easily. There seems to be a bit of a balance to strike between challenging navigation and fun fights. Cheers for the tip about the door trigger, I'll stick that on the list of things to sort.

Thanks for taking the time to check it out, I'll have a look at the nova project now that I know what I'm doing with doombuilder (almost).

Old Post 08-27-12 11:21 #
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Pottus
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One thing I noticed is you should try and use the stair plugin which actually does more than stairs, it creates nice curves instead of doing it manually it's faster this way and doesn't look ugly.

Old Post 08-27-12 11:55 #
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jerrysheppy
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I absolutely loved this map. Corrupted techbase into hell is one of my favorite themes, and you are some kind of a savant when it comes to hell areas, at least if this is your first map. This is a map that could go toe-to-toe with the best of any high-standards community project, in my opinion.

Gameplay-wise it was mostly fine, but I have to agree with the critiques about ammo. Fix that and maybe find some way of ensuring that the player won't blunder into the red key area ambush before he finds a heavier weapon (like I did) and you'd be golden.

Old Post 08-29-12 06:46 #
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tellerstein
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Your map is absolutely fantastic! Really well designed. The structural quality eliminates any texture alignment problem. Congratulations!

Old Post 08-29-12 07:25 #
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mouldy
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cheers guys! Some great tips and feedback here. I think I might work on a sequel to this map that journeys further into the abyss of hell.

Old Post 08-29-12 21:01 #
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BloodyAcid
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tellerstein said:
Your map is absolutely fantastic! Really well designed. The structural quality eliminates any texture alignment problem. Congratulations!

Not to sound like a complete bummer or hater, but I am in absolute disagreement with this statement. Pillars and windows should not be held responsible for lack of texture alignment.

(Not directed at Mouldy; everyone gets better, though don't think that architecture can cover up blatant mistakes.)

Old Post 08-29-12 21:20 #
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mouldy
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Yeah there was a lot of learning involved here regarding texture alignment, some of those textures force you to build the architecture around them.

I might have to try making my own textures at some point. Is there a prefered method/software for doing that?

Old Post 08-29-12 21:58 #
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BloodyAcid
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There are textures here and here that are free to use.

I personally prefer {hotoshop

Old Post 08-29-12 22:04 #
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tellerstein
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mouldy said:
I might have to try making my own textures at some point. Is there a prefered method/software for doing that?


You can use GIMP! It's free and it's otherworldly good.

http://www.gimp.org/downloads/

Old Post 08-29-12 22:42 #
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mouldy
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thanks, I was mainly trying to figure out how to add new textures in doom builder once you've made them. I had a look at a tutorial that suggests using XWE to add them to a wad file, I guess then you use that as a resource in doombuilder. Is this the way people generally do it?

Old Post 08-29-12 23:33 #
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BloodyAcid
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There's a great program that is the sucessor of XWE. It adds on the features XWE has and many more. It's called Slade 3. http://slade.mancubus.net/

From there, you should follow this tutorial:

http://slade-editor.wikia.com/wiki/...import_textures

Old Post 08-29-12 23:43 #
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Gez
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Memfis said:
- I would group all yellow bars in one sector (so the player wouldn't have to press on every bar)

Actually, I liked that each bar were autonomous. It's a little change from the usual experience, and it doesn't hurt gameplay since you only need to raise one to pass through anyway.

Old Post 08-30-12 12:27 #
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glenzinho
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mouldy my man, that is some great shit there! Gameplay was awesome, your architecture and design is fucked up in a good way... impressive. I love the long room with the train, how you get across the sections using crates and the engine and so forth. About alignments and such, your texturing just works, that's all I can say. You could spend ages aligning every last sidedef perfectly and it still wouldn't have the life that comes forth from this map. I hope you don't lose this 'touch' as you go forward in your mapping. The 'devil's anus' room is the shit, figuratively and literally ;) Good work, this map is full of genuine doominess!

Old Post 08-30-12 12:51 #
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chopkinsca
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Is this really your first map? I can see you going somewhere if you keep this awesome work up. That last room with the cyberdemon was nothing short of amazing looking.

Old Post 08-30-12 17:46 #
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mouldy
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aww cheers you guys. And thanks Bloodyacid for the link to slade, that looks like just the thing I was looking for.

Old Post 08-30-12 21:25 #
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Katamori
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For a first map, this is great!

Old Post 03-23-13 11:30 #
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mouldy
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Katamori said:
For a first map, this is great!


Cheers! I've since made a lot of fixes and adjustments to this map and included it in the nova project, but you can have a go at the new version here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?3ex9lu6eessjr1y

Old Post 03-23-13 13:52 #
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zinkai
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play the original version, 100%kills 95%item 100% secrets, finished the map with 3% health. all i say is very nice, difficulty is perfect and i think the ammo and health are fine. some very cool ideas and i love the 2 last rooms. wish my first map was half as good

Old Post 03-23-13 19:14 #
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dachauncinator
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Is this first map RELEASED or made? Cause' you at least had to have made at least a few before this.

Old Post 03-23-13 20:01 #
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