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Insane_Gazebo
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Pottus said:


I don't want to sound like an ass but a lot of maps in Sunder have some really crappy texture variation for instance the furnace only has 23 unique textures with 65000 sides and 3500 sectors I think your architectural style is pretty good but your judgement of textural contrast and texture variation stinks. Also you need to learn to spam Boom ceiling/floor brightness transfers :)



No, I actually agree to an extent! I just preferred to lock myself into one 'set' of textures when I mapped. I feared that if I kept going and added more contrast (come to think of it, the way I'm defining the word in relationship to mapping is a bit different than what you're think of), I'd could end up with a big mess. I felt it was stronger to sit and develop one or two themes per map, rather than mix a whole heap of different themes together. (I actually considered doing what you indicated, and it didn't appeal to me much.)

In fact, just so we're on the same page - the textural contrast I was referring to, wasn't in regard to the amount of textures a map wide at all. I was thinking about how, for example, the textures of two sectors/lines interact with each other - whether it be some metal and wood contrasting against one another, or if they've got a strong high-light texture (like a redwall texture for example), not just if there's more than 20 or 30 textures a map.

As for Boom related features, they were something I was trying to avoid as I was pretty new to mapping and I was worried about compatibility at the time. (Ceiling and floor brightness transfers do sound nice, though!)

Hope what I mean is a bit clearer now :)

Old Post 11-08-12 03:50 #
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Phml
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The amount of sectors and linedefs in a map is irrelevant and shouldn't ever be taken in consideration, except for performance issues. Using such numbers to justify any art-related change makes about as much sense as turning clear, distinct and immersive themes into meaningless christmas trees.

...Sorry for the somewhat hostile answer in a civil exchange I'm not even part of, but I feel Pottus has been throwing a lot of poor advice in various wads&mods topics lately, and naming what is arguably the greatest strength of Sunder as a mistake that should be fixed just pushes my buttons.

Old Post 11-08-12 10:11 #
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mouldy
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I have to say, I think using a limited range of textures that stick to a particular colour scheme is a valid design choice, particularly in maps that are mainly large arenas with lots of action - there will be enough visual distraction in these kind of maps without the background adding to it.

Old Post 11-08-12 11:37 #
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Pottus
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Well I didn't say turn the maps into a Christmas tree, but a little more texture variation would be been nice I mean the furnace just looks so damn bland aside from the interesting architecture. I think a large map with lots of lines/sectors should have a fair sized texture theme to match. Also I never really throw much bad advice I only say what I don't like whats wrong with that? As a matter of fact I'd rather hear from other people what is poor with my own work than what is good. But really Phml there is no right or wrong way since everyone is going to like different things so in the the end whatever bullshit I say I'd still encourage any author to do what they think is best.

Edit - When I re-choreographed Sunder to work with COOP it really was the lack of texture variation that stood out most to me so like I said not without going Christmas tree on it but a bit better use of textures could have went a long way but don't get me wrong I really like Sunder it was rather inspirational.

Last edited by Pottus on 11-08-12 at 12:17

Old Post 11-08-12 11:43 #
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Phml
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the furnace just looks so damn bland


It really doesn't. I can't think of a single Doom map with as many memorable and distinctive areas as this one. I could go on and list them, but that would end up being a room by room description of the whole map, because everything looks that great.

Adding different textures based on size alone ends up all too often as essentially just stitching unrelated small maps together. See the original Deus Vult, which is the poster child for Christmas trees in Doom (that it was also split into 4 maps isn't actually relevant to my point).

Old Post 11-08-12 12:23 #
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Pottus
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I never said it didn't look great I just said the texturing looks bland to my eyes but yeah the architecture and lighting is really nice. As I said in my last post with anything there is going to be a difference of opinion one person will like something while another does not. Anyways it's just useless bickering back and forth here so I would just like to end it at that =)

Old Post 11-08-12 13:08 #
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Insane_Gazebo
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Pottus said:
I never said it didn't look great I just said the texturing looks bland to my eyes but yeah the architecture and lighting is really nice. As I said in my last post with anything there is going to be a difference of opinion one person will like something while another does not. Anyways it's just useless bickering back and forth here so I would just like to end it at that =)


I actually agree with you to a certain extent, but just so we're clear - I was looking at texture contrast on a micro scale, rather than the macro.

For example, in some wads, you'll see a dull grey rock with dull grey metal supports. Because they're got a similar colour, they lack contrast, and the architecture blends into itself. Get say, some wood and metal together, and they stand out nicely. (Wood and metal together is fairly common in this regard.) But, add what I've decided to call a 'hightlight texture', like redwall or the custom orangewall, some lava, and so on, and you can create another layer of contrast again. This is something I think this wad does really well, and thought I should point it out.

Sure, you might have wads like Deus Vult with a huge variety of texture themes, and that can be fairly interesting, but I think some of his texture choices were fairly poor in areas, not because he's a bad mapper (he's one of the best mappers, architecturally, that I know of) but because he didn't spend long enough to develop each theme. (This usually takes me a long time.) And I think this is where we've got fairly different opinions on what looks good - I get the impression you prefer greater mixture of brighter colours in your maps than me, where as I prefer dark, decaying textures - many of which are brown. (This is part of the reason I dislike the standard tech-base textures, perhaps. Or maybe I've seen too many tech-base maps that look the same?)

Anyway, I just wanted to add this in in the hope some constructive conversation came out of this, as it's a topic I became quite interested in while I developed my maps, hell, maybe there's a thread topic in there somewhere...

Old Post 11-08-12 15:58 #
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Pottus
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Sounds good I.G, it's good if you do what you think is best for yourself it's really impossible to cater the wants of every player all that is important is you fulfill your own ambitions and enjoy doing it! Again thanks for the inspiration you've provided in your maps it's helped me a lot at creating more interesting layout styles.

Old Post 11-08-12 16:15 #
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dannebubinga
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The furnace is one of the best maps ever created, 'nuf said.

Insane_Gazebo: Thanks for the kind words! I'm really glad you enjoyd it. Could you give me an example of designs that you thought was more nicely done than others? I'm just curious since I almost mapped on autopilot in the end and got so tired of the maps that I couldn't give a damn about how original or ripped off they looked after a while. Make sure you record a demo sometime ;)

It seems no one feels keen on reviewing cs2 on the newsstuff. Are they afraid of the usual rage that occurs everytime some reviewer claims that maps are impossible? I'll be looking forward for a review whatever it says.

Also. Thanks to everyone who voted for cs2 for a cacoward. Though I highly doubt I'll win hah.

Old Post 11-08-12 21:28 #
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Pottus
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MAP01:

Reminds me of the later maps on Scythe 2 but with a refreshing new style. It's a good intro-map into the slaughter fest in later maps.

MAP02:

This map really follows in the foot steps of MAP01 one thing that stood out is the North end could really have used some architecture instead the abrupt horizon ending unnaturally it's not really too big of an issue though.

MAP03:

I think this map could have benefit from following the style of the first two Maps the use of Zimmer was probably not the best idea but overall it's still a pretty good map. I think particularly the overall abstract natural design was pretty good but the use of Zimmer didn't complement that so well.

MAP04:

I liked the design of this map it's like a cross between Obsidian nightmare in Sunder and the furance. The opening fight was not so great though just running circles around all the monsters it's easy to get past this part without even firing a shot. Then when you get into the area with chainers hit that switch and the viles and hellknights start spawning it's quite a change in game play from the opening fight.

MAP05:

I really like the curvy architecture in this map it's really pleasant and gives a feel beyond boxy sectors. As a matter of fact that map is really well constructed as a whole and it's just not the size of the map that makes it that way. Another thing that stood out on this map was it is really a tech base but hell is breaking through and converting it into something else on a scale of the whole map. There is a lot of copy/paste on this map but you made it work good my general rule of thumb when it comes to copy/paste if your copy pasting more than a few sectors you should have good reason to do it and you certainly did.

MAP06:

Another good map was this one which I thought followed a similar style to MAP05 the one thing on this map that really stuck out was the narrow corridor near the start where your walking along the beam and you can see the void below I think I might want to do something similar to that some time my self =)

MAP07:

The design of this map was pretty nice but I thought it was really anti-climatic as a last map. MAP06 would have been a better choice as the last map moving this one near the beginning. If you did want to keep it where it was there should have been some kind of epic last fight. With a 160 monsters it's like a normal Doom map and but judging by your previous comment you just wanted to get things done so maybe you didn't take this into consideration. One other thing this map could have used some lower light levels for better light contrasting.

I think the main thing that could have been fixed and mentioned this earlier was that there is an excess of unused textures that could have reduced the file size but I don't think anyone cares about that these days with terabyte hard drives and download speeds +1meg/sec.

Old Post 11-09-12 00:04 #
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gggmork
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Like, bump, and stuff cuz these are cool maps. I could try a demo if nobody has recorded one for certain maps yet. I'd rather watch someone else's demo cuz they'll beat me anyway, damn mouse using cheaters. I don't really want to record demos anymore in general maybe (I'll see how many seconds it takes to break that resolution, but its just eating my life, which sucks anyway but whatever).

By the way, I think the last map of combat shock 1 had some visually nice architecture that gave me ideas, specifically how tiered structures are quite visually interesting in doom because viewed from one side you see multiple nests of floors/walls/ceilings inside eachother (like I remember one part had a cyber in the middle of a bunch of nested "concentric" rectangles which looked cool). That idea resulted in the big dumb architecture thing at the end of my slaughterfest 2012 map, which kinda sucks, but was a brief experiment in tiered structures. Um, yeah.

Old Post 11-28-12 20:59 #
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Ribbiks
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aside from possibly years of habit, what's stopping you from using a mouse aswell? o.O

Anyways afaik no ones demo'd maps 3, 6, or 7 yet

Old Post 11-28-12 21:06 #
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Talvi
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Easy mode Sunder. Which still means they are fantastic maps.

Old Post 11-28-12 21:27 #
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dannebubinga
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gggmork: Max map 6! Knowing that you use keyboard only makes your demos much more entertaining, so it's worth it if you ask me :)

Are we done calling this a Sunder clone yet? It's getting kind of annoying since it ain't the case at all. Map 4 and 5 are inspired by sunder, anyone could tell that. But what else? If it's so convenient to slap a "blah-blah-blah-clone" brand on maps, then why didn't anyone claim SoD to be a death-destiny clone for example?

I'm not bitter, just curious and a wee bit annoyed. I love Sunder though and being compared to Sunder is flattering indeed. But when people say that danne's maps = Sunder, but not as good, I get a bit grumpy.

Old Post 11-29-12 16:45 #
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Pottus
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I bet if these maps were in Sunder no one would know the difference =)

Old Post 11-29-12 16:51 #
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Ribbiks
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Maybe it's just convenient mentally to lump them in the category of 'pretty looking very difficult slaughter-esque maps' that many likely associate with sunder. But I think it should be obvious to anyone whose spent time with both map sets that they're indeed very distinct.

Old Post 11-29-12 17:48 #
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dobu gabu maru
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Any large maps with big symmetrical spaces and significant monster hordes to occupy them will inevitably get compared to Sunder, consciously or not. It's an unfortunate part of trying to create a product, that someone will find what your work resembles and compare it to the closest relative. This is especially true for any drive by players that IDCLEV just to check out how many monsters are in one room.

I'm at MAP05 currently and I've been having a good, tense time. I'll wait to finish the next three levels before leaving my opinion on the whole thing, but I've been enjoying this quite a bit more than CS1. It feels like you really are coming to understand space and ammo placement more and more danne, and nearly every fight you throw in here has its own little quark. Biggest nitpick so far is that I hate your use of PEs as they provide ~5 minutes of clean up for me with almost no challenge other than when I'm trying to rush through the level.

I've also been kinda iffy on some fights, but some other encounters have been absolutely amazing and tense to make up for any shortcomings. Your double AV cyber finale in MAP02 had me floored when I first played it—brilliant idea. I also enjoyed the big fight in MAP04 in the room with the BFG—it's exhilarating to weave in and out of the hordes just for a chance to snipe the AVs.

I think the biggest shock when playing your maps for me is that you have an exceptionally tight ammo balance, even on the maps where your monster count is in the thousands. Every time I think you give too much cell, I find myself decrying my stupidity when I have 20 left.

Old Post 11-29-12 22:03 #
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princetontiger
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awesome WAD... the first level is challenging

Old Post 11-29-12 23:41 #
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gggmork
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Here's a fail of 6. Did the first part kinda fast, and that's my basic starting route so far, but I think I'm done recording. But then I started playing slow/lame/safe because, um, I didn't want to die.. and I didn't completely memorize stuff. Its apparently not a good idea to run out of the caco/rev room still because you might run outta rockets like I did almost. I only got all 3 keys, didn't do the main end part. This is a great map.
http://filesmelt.com/dl/c-shock2-06-fail-ggg.lmp

Old Post 11-30-12 02:14 #
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dannebubinga
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Nice demo anyway! The first part is really action packed and fast as hell. You might want to check the automap though. There's a "suprise" for you :)

Old Post 12-01-12 23:49 #
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gggmork
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Ha ha, I didn't notice that. That's a good solution because nobody will notice that on their first run at least, so they'll get to see all the arsenal architecture, then just skip it later when recording for speed and avoiding repetition from restarting over and over.

Do you have a demo of it?

Old Post 12-02-12 01:21 #
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dannebubinga
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No I don't. It would take me a long time to make a demo of map6 now. Been slacking on the dooming lately.

Old Post 12-02-12 10:51 #
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gggmork
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Here's another slightly further fail demo that isn't worth watching. At least I killed the red key cybers faster. Then I fell off the timed column trap a lot of times cuz I suck at that type of stuff. My pathetic death was basically due to not doing enough saved runs to memorize a good strategy/route.
http://filesmelt.com/dl/c-shock2-06-failAgain-ggg.lmp

Old Post 12-03-12 20:18 #
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j4rio
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When you pass that timed column running sequence once, a lift becomes accessible to the platform from which you fell. I should know as I originally bugged danne to add it. ;) It's a little unobvious probably though.

Old Post 12-03-12 20:51 #
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dannebubinga
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I really liked how you made the cybies follow you into the RK room and let them infight the HK's. Your death was pretty unlucky. You're not far away from an exit now. The last part isn't as hard as the start :) Nice demo.

Also. What j4rio said heh

Old Post 12-03-12 21:57 #
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princetontiger
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this map pack is pretty tough!!!! i almost beat level 1

i'm trying to not save in the middle of the game

Old Post 12-04-12 03:25 #
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