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Hellbent
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I am proposing a vanilla Doom episode 3 replacement project based on e3m3: Pandemonium. The idea is that people try to make a wad similar in characteristics to E3M3 but with original layout and secrets. Here are the characteristics of E3M3 as I see them:

  • Small rooms/areas (claustrophobic even)
  • large, atmospheric secret areas.
  • cubbyhole secrets to a minimum
  • secret areas that are accessed in creative ways (note, there are no secret doors--directly opened or remotely--in e3m3, but there are 6 secret areas)
  • creative, original, memorable areas -- No Homages!!
  • an utter lack of long hallways
  • funky/twisted texturing
  • claustrophobic gameplay
  • hellish areas
  • overall, not too big
  • windows into other areas (including secret areas)
  • very few doors--easy navigation through the map
  • few safe places to hang out.
  • fair amount of damaging floors, but no extensive regions of slag or slime.
  • e3m3 level of detailing
  • the occasional trap, but nothing too evil
  • creative but non-ornate architecture
  • compact map design

How you bring these elements into your map is up to you. The best nine submissions will be included in the final wad, to be decided in some consensus way.

Since this is a Hellbent project, exit doors are not allowed to be key-locked and keys are not allowed to be on pillars and monocromatic texturing will not be tolerated. Single rooms can be monochromatic for effect, but half your level cannot be wood and the other half be marble. This ain't e4, yo. This is a Petersen Enterprise.

If this piques your interest in the least, go play e3m3 as your first step to participating in this project to see and experience what an e3m3 map is like.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wS0DnAbFhPs/UHA0GUQqjbI/AAAAAAAAChM/W8lakjK_14k/s560/Screen+shot+2012-10-06+at+9.35.48+AM.png

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-v_8tj9UnZNw/UGooAD0MLSI/AAAAAAAACbE/gUhmrNSz0cE/s320/Screen+shot+2012-10-01+at+7.21.20+PM.png http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-lnEyYm084To/UHAgll_v0bI/AAAAAAAACgE/AEYNZ2PDKTg/s320/Screen+shot+2012-05-17+at+2.49.57+PM.png

The original Pandemonium has the following notable statistics:

Two Blue Armors
All weapons but the Plasma Rifle
Two barons

Fun fact: Petersen often put the BFG and Soul sphere near each other in areas of extraordinary danger.

Last edited by Hellbent on 10-07-12 at 01:24

Old Post 10-01-12 21:43 #
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Death Egg
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Cool idea, E3M3 is one of my favorite maps so an entire episode based on its design would be awesome. I'll see if I can whip up a map.

Old Post 10-01-12 21:45 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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I actually have a partially completed E3M3 tribute map that I can probably finish up for this. About two months ago I found myself really intrigued with E3M3 for some reason. It's obviously incomplete in terms of retexturing, and in its current state is too hellish for E2 and too techbasey for E3. It gives the map a very unique theme, which I tried to emulate.

A suggestion for anyone thinking about entering: Build a retextured Tom Hall alpha-style techbase, not something designed as a hell map.

Last edited by Dragonsbrethren on 10-01-12 at 22:14

Old Post 10-01-12 22:06 #
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Phobus
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I'd just be resubmitted Depths (E3M6) from DTWiD if I were to try for this, as that's what that map was mostly based on. Neat idea though.

Old Post 10-01-12 22:55 #
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cannonball
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I might have a go at this, definitely a way to try out different texture and architecture combinations

Old Post 10-01-12 23:09 #
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Hellbent
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Phobus said:
I'd just be resubmitted Depths (E3M6) from DTWiD if I were to try for this, as that's what that map was mostly based on. Neat idea though.
It would be nice to get the dtwid 'leftovers' train going again as there are some really great maps that didn't make it into dtwid.

Old Post 10-01-12 23:19 #
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esselfortium
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That picture is from e3m4 though :P

Old Post 10-01-12 23:47 #
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Hellbent
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esselfortium said:
That picture is from e3m4 though :P
actually, it's from a secret area I made on an elaborate edit of the e3m1 that was in dtwid. :p I figured pictures help projects get off the ground and I couldn't be bothered to take a screenshot from e3m3 and upload it, but maybe I will now.

Old Post 10-02-12 00:07 #
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walter confalonieri
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not a bad idea, actually is really cool!

Old Post 10-02-12 00:23 #
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Tarnsman
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Just minor semantics but...


Hellbent said:
[*]no cubbyhole secrets
[*]secret areas that are accessed in creative ways (note, there are no secret doors--directly opened or remotely--in e3m3, but there are 6 secret areas



The last two secrets in E3M3 are two rectangular "cubbyhole" secrets. Also they are opened by going up to a wall and using it and walking over another sector three feet away which also lowers the wall. For all intents and purposes this is the same thing as a secret door. I mean really what's the difference between using a wall and the ceiling raising and using a wall and the floor lowering?


Hellbent said:
exit doors are not allowed to be key-locked

The exit in E3M3 might as well be key-locked considering a room with absolutely nothing in it and no detailing is all that remains between the blue door and the exit door five feet past it.

Old Post 10-02-12 17:04 #
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scifista42
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Good project idea.

I might make a difficult map for E3M8 slot. WITH A CYBERDEMON. Or two. Well, maybe just one... Wait, isn't that forbidden, is it?

Old Post 10-02-12 18:57 #
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Hellbent
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scifista42 said:
Good project idea.

I might make a difficult map for E3M8 slot. WITH A CYBERDEMON. Or two. Well, maybe just one... Wait, isn't that forbidden, is it?

i just got an idea for an e3m8 with dramatic height variations since e3m3 doesn't really have any--but sure, I say more leniency for e3m8.

@Tarnsman: Those "cubbyhole" secrets are very creative secrets--you're failure to feel the difference as significant is nothing short of troubling. The cubbyhole secrets I'm lamenting are ones like e1m8 soul sphere or dozens of other ones done similarly in custom maps. No doors opening to a 64x64 cubbyhole. The ones at the end of e3m3 are so much more. There is a difference and the difference is significantly significant. If you can't see that, than I dunno what.

As far as the exits.. "might as well" ain't the same as one sector removed. GOT IT? If the actual exit door is keycode locked a little piece of me will die, and that would be very sad.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Rsy5gL3E1wo/TuewGKfZcdI/AAAAAAAABJ4/AXee7BiDBqs/s1600/500full.jpg

Are we square? Are.. ..we.. ..square?

Old Post 10-02-12 20:18 #
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Tarnsman
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Hellbent said:
No doors opening to a 64x64 cubbyhole. The ones at the end of e3m3 are so much more.


You're right. They're 64 wider. That's double. So in fact, they are so much more.

Old Post 10-02-12 22:13 #
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walter confalonieri
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just thinking about this now, but if this project will go we can use new textures and stuff? I suppose it could be for vanilla doom...

Old Post 10-03-12 00:34 #
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Hellbent
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Tarnsman said:


You're right. They're 64 wider. That's double. So in fact, they are so much more.

tsk.. tsk... it's the manner in which they reveal. Anyway, no 64x64 secret areas. If you must do a 128x64 secret area, then do it in a creative way like it was done on e3m3.

@Walter: Wasn't really thinking of using custom textures... but if you post some on this thread and they resonate to my oldskool sensibilities I might be open to them.

Old Post 10-03-12 00:41 #
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cannonball
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Here's my crack at making this.
http://www.mediafire.com/?e9rj9407kb6doc2
Only UV difficulty done, will added difficulty settings later
Crap there is a door secret :/ couldn't find a good way of opening that secret in another way. I will probably address it if people have problems with it.

Last edited by cannonball on 10-04-12 at 22:06

Old Post 10-04-12 21:44 #
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Hellbent
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Very nice, sir! Thanks! I would, of couse, have to point out too much of the map is echoing existing areas of Pandemonium. This will have to be addressed in subsequent versions (if you're willing). I would try to rework those areas either through texturing and/or design structure.

Gameplay: 9
Items/health/weapons balance: 8
(would be higher, but you repeat-give weapons)

Originality: 5
(could be much higher by reducing the homages)

Overall potential as a candidate: 8
Very solid work. I'm sure others will agree the homage-areas bring it down significantly, though.

Secrets: 7


One common way to make a secret is to have an opening in a wall that you can't easily see. Your wood area with the pillars would be a good place to implement such a secret (and also would serve to break up the pillar pattern nicely, which is a little monotonous).

I would completely do away with the pink passageways area and either just leave it out or replace it with something else--far too close to the original to even bother working with I think.

EDIT: I really liked your key placement. So refreshing and id-authentic. No sense of episodic find key--find key door-find next key--find next key door etc. which bogs down lots of pwads. Excellently done. (really, the reason I'm proposing this project is because I am Ahab on an id-authenticity mission. I cannot be satisfied. Moar! MOAR!! Petersen or bust!

You do have some really nice original areas, btw. The whole map feels fresh and Doomy. Just redo the homage areas and you could really have a gem on your hands.

This room really popped out at me as fresh and Doomy and very well done:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-BNRF-Xoqmnc/UG4T6901RsI/AAAAAAAACeY/Ylv1vXYTz7k/s480/Screen+shot+2012-10-04+at+6.27.59+PM.png

Last edited by Hellbent on 10-05-12 at 00:41

Old Post 10-04-12 23:42 #
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cannonball
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Thanks for the feedback. Yep I think I tried too hard to make it feel E3M3 like that I started using some of the setups in my map. Fixing the red key area (obvious one there) shouldn't be too hard. I will probably make it more enclosed and room like (remove the ceiling and make it woody). I will have to deal with the secrets around there too.
The wood/pillar area isn't great. I might remove some pillars to make progression less annoying (I get lost myself). I will fix the computer map secret too somehow. Other stuff I will have a think about.

Old Post 10-05-12 00:13 #
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Hellbent
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I liked the room where you shoot the switch. I just thought the door opened a little too close to the source, making getting the computer map too easy. I didn't have a problem with the secret itself, since it opened from a remote switch rather than space bar on the door. You could make a more atmospheric room for the comp map if you want, but I think it's fine.

Old Post 10-05-12 00:43 #
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Katamori
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Great idea! However, I think, probably E3M3 is the hardest Doom map to recreate.

Old Post 10-05-12 18:35 #
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walter confalonieri
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Wait, isn't a "inspired map" from E3M3? I think it must be done in this way, katamori... Or almost i get it in this way...

But after reading the hellbent reply to cannonball map, i'm not so sure...

Old Post 10-05-12 18:46 #
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Hellbent
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Walter, you can use the UAC texture in this screenshot. The texture can be found in this wad.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9vXPfNo1qMA/UG8npNocrxI/AAAAAAAACfg/Od-6p9DxbYM/s400/Screen+shot+2012-10-05+at+1.40.27+PM.png

Old Post 10-05-12 19:35 #
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walter confalonieri
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oh well, thanks hellbent!

Old Post 10-05-12 19:47 #
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Hellbent
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I'm more open to new textures that combine existing textures to make new ones that seamlessly fit without grabbing the player's attention by being like "oh, look, there are the new textures". New textures that don't stand out, are better. So any kind of tasteful recombining like the UAC texture in the above image I'm open for.

Old Post 10-05-12 21:02 #
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cannonball
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Version 2 of my map (still no difficulty settings sorry)
http://www.mediafire.com/?2laqvjeq4sc1n3v
Changes
Homage areas altered whilst trying to avoid reworking secrets. Most notable the red key area which has a nice view now into the hellish abyss.
Area with the 3 key switches altered a little.
Flesh pillars in browngreen room changed as this looked also like a homage.
Some pillars removed from wood area with rocket launcher secret. Also obtaining said secret has been modified.
Weapons moved so there are no more multiple pickup points. This involved giving chaingun at the start instead of obtaining it in three different locations depending on which corridor you take first. Also previous pickup points for all weapons which now longer exist now contain ammo for that particular weapon.
Various detail additions to make the map look nicer.
Computer map secret moved, where will be obvious within 5 seconds of loading up the wad :P. The room previously housing the computer map remains, but is open from the start and contains an invisibility.

Old Post 10-05-12 23:31 #
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Hellbent
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I haven't played through the whole thing yet (keep dying) but here is my initial response:

EDIT: Oh, I see what the woodgargs do, now. Perhaps my RL/Chaingun suggestion is not so good, then. Maybe put a switch upper texture (non-visible to the player) on the woodgargs that open the RL door so you know that pressing on it does something.

Also, the wood pillar area is much better now. Very nice.

I hate that you give two weapons at the very start. I dunno why, but I just don't like it in my doom maps. Maybe because you never encountered this in the original levels except in one certain gimmicky secret level (and even then they are tucked away into corners of the opening room and blend into the rocks). I think it's more important to make sure the player gets the green armor easily than it is to make sure he gets the chaingun since running around the map unarmored is a seriously unhealthy thing to do. Now that's just my opinion and it's your map; you leave it just as it is is if that is how you like it. But if it was my map, I would put the RL in a harder to get secret and put the chaingun in where the RL is now (or if you leave the RL where it is, make the cement texture start "later" so that you can't see it from the wood area so the secret isn't so easy to spot). I like where the green armor is, even though you'll only get it if you go one of three ways and then look around for it. Now what about blue armor? I don't know if there is one and I just didn't find it, but I would put a blue armor on the opposite end of the map from where the green armor is, and in an easier than harder secret (maybe where the backpack is and put the backpack somewhere else?) Basically I would do some item juggling to get the balance better.

The soul sphere secret seems maybe to be triggered a bit too easily and overall seems too easy to attain. Maybe make the trigger more remote?

Whereas before you were doing homages of E3M3, now it seems you are doing homages of.. well... your own areas. A lot of the rooms/areas feel the same. For example you have the room with the four skintech columns that I really liked, but you also have a room with four sladskul columns. I would redo the sladwall columns room. There also seems to be an over abundance of raised caged areas for imps and sarges to shoot from. Fine to do it, but repeating design motifs like these cause me to feel that not enough areas are distinct in the map, and getting my bearings in the map is more difficult (nevermind that it's less interesting when so many areas are similar).

Since you've already made one revamp of the map, I'd certainly understand if you don't want to do anymore overhauling of areas. Again, this is just what I would do if it was me. I'm gonna keep playing your map till I beat it and give more feedback then. This feedback is really preliminary since I haven't finished v2 of the map yet.

Last edited by Hellbent on 10-06-12 at 13:25

Old Post 10-06-12 12:57 #
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Hellbent
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I completed version 2. I found 5 of 6 secrets and found the blue armor. About the blue armor location. I wonder if because it's in a dangerous place, that people (like myself) will only find it after they have killed 95% of the baddies and by the time they get it they don't need it. Whether or not this is a valid point, if you decide to leave the blue armor where it is, I would suggest putting an 8 high and 48 deep gray platform for it to sit on. I hate to see blue armor sitting directly on lava like that!

My other complaint I have is that the level feels a little more orthogonal than I would like (it feels like there are lots of squares and rectangles in the level). One way you can fix this is by trying to avoid an orthogonal area being attached to another orthogonal area. Instead, have orthogonal areas broken up by irregular shaped areas. You could also experiment with rotating square pillars to be diamonds.

Now I'll let others weigh on my next point: you have an inescapable lava pit in a high traffic area. This may be something you want to reconsider since people hate to die in the pit. maso-meno. *shrug* I'd probably leave it for now, though, and focus on the other more pressing issues, which I would rate by priority as follows:

1. Distinctness of areas/rooms (fixing areas that are too similar)
2. Reducing the sense of orthogonality
3. Item/powerup placement. (In addition to my other points, not sure how I feel about plasma rifle given so freely. Original Dooms always had plasma in a secret or in a hard to find area.
4. Some of the secret areas or their contents could be fine tuned
5. Is the map encroaching on episode 4 syndrom? (You have a high preponderance of wooden areas in your map)
6. Is an inescapable lava pit in a high traffic area a bad thing?

Last edited by Hellbent on 10-06-12 at 14:05

Old Post 10-06-12 13:53 #
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Death Egg
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http://i.imgur.com/zMijj.png

Finished the basic map layout, gonna work on object placement next.

Old Post 10-08-12 06:15 #
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Hellbent
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Looks pretty good! Nice size and scale.

Old Post 10-08-12 15:38 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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http://dkk.slickproductions.org/images/doom/pandemonium/db_panda-layout.png

I finished my layout too.

Old Post 10-08-12 20:15 #
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