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gemini09 said:


It's not a matter of players still finding ways to cheat.

It's about my creative control over my own mod. It has nothing to do with those who made ZDoom, and their personal preferences.

I understand that ZDoom is a personal project for the group involved, and they are certainly free to shape it as they see fit.

I think it would be healthy to recognize the fact that modders come before a programmer's personal preferences.

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Gez said:

Why?

Why is it a fact?

Why would it be healthy to accept it as a fact?

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Sergeant_Mark_IV said:
You can't disable cheats, but you can prevent players from using it.



You can give the +WEAPON.CHEATNOTWEAPON flag on weapons to prevent them from begin obtained by IDKFA

The +NOTIMEFREEZE flag will prevent monsters from being affected by the freeze cheat.

The +NOFEAR flag will prevent prevent monsters from being affected by IDCHOPPERS cheat.

Remember that any thing that does a damage of 99999 can instantly kill anything, even players in god mode. Make use of it with a custom-made rocket, and make the Cyberdemon always kill the player when hit, even if cheating.

Place some sectors with instadeath around and outside regular sectors to prevent IDCLIP, but you cant prevent players to cross locked doors with it. For doing this, you will need to create an invisible actor that will fire a hitscan attack of 999999 damage right after it sees the player, and place it behind the locked doors. And instead just locking the doors with keys, you will need to make the door line call an ACS script to detect if the player has the key, then open the door, and destroy the actor with the deadly hitscans that guards it.

But, this would require a lot of knowledge in DECORATE and ACS.

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zarkyb said:


Absolutely not. It is the programmer's right to do what he or she wants to do with their own project. Sure, they can listen to suggestions from modders and the people who will use their project; but they are in no way obligated to do so. You are also not entitled to feel hard done by or stifled creatively, simply because the developers have made the decision not to include a feature that you would like.

If someone wants complete creative control (outside what a particular source port is capable of) then it really is their responsibility to either use a source port that allows them that extra level of freedom, or to write their own source port instead.

Your personal preferences do not come before those of the developers of the source port. You contradict yourself in saying that the ZDoom developers are free to shape it as they see fit, yet you then say that they must recognise that the opinions of modders come before their own. To summarise, it appears that you're saying that you're fine with the ZDoom team doing what they like with their own project, as long as the design decisions they make are aligned with the beliefs of the community and, in particular, those developing mods which use ZDoom.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that anyone holding this belief could be accused of having a distorted, over-inflated sense of entitlement. ZDoom is the personal project of a dedicated team of individuals, and they can develop it however they wish, with no conditions stipulated by anyone.

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gemini09 said:

I'm just saying that it's for the GREATER GOOD that modders have total control. John Carmack wanted people to be able to mod Doom - I don't believe he'd have any interest of having any obstacles for modders to overcome in order to craft exactly whatever it is that they wanted to.

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zarkyb said:
If you want complete control, make your own engine with the features that you do want.

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Gez said:
You sound entitled as fuck. "That's not my field."

Well, if you really want to do things that the Doom engines out there do not let you do; it has to become your field.

Players do come before modders. There wouldn't be any modder if the game wasn't played in the first place. A modding scene only develops if there are enough players to sustain it.

Total control for the modders isn't even a good idea. As the saying goes, art is born from constraints, thrives on struggle, dies from liberty. Pop-quiz: why do so many people still work on vanilla-compatible mods, having to fit within Doom's static limits? Or why did everybody jump on the 1024 bandwagon? Why where there successful projects like 10sectors, 2sectors, 1monster?

Because these guidelines brought constraints. It limited what the modders could do. It forced them to concentrate on what was absolutely necessary to convey their ideas.

You cite "how it's done in the game industry". Let's look at what happens in the game industry, really.
1. Designers came up with super cool ideas.
2. Technical limitations and time constraints cause them to cut just about everything superfluous
3. The game is released, sells, and they get paid.

Alternatively, what if you decide that the designers get to overrule the programmers, and that the game will take as long as it needs so as to perfectly realize the designers' perfect vision? Well, then, you get stuff like Daikatana or Duke Nukem Forever. Yes, this is how it works in the game industry. When design gets to have total control, the game takes super-long, is constantly delayed, and when it is finally released it sucks and becomes an eternal symbol of ridicule.

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zarkyb said:

I've just finished reading Masters of Doom which gives a great deal of background concerning the development of Doom. John Carmack is reported as being pretty stubborn about the decisions he made while programming his engines; one particular example was that when programming the Wolfenstein engine, Romero and the rest of the design team had to practically beg Carmack on several occasions to include sliding walls before he included them. Carmack made decisions like these and the design team had to abide by them.

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zarkyb said:

Let's also keep in mind that the vanilla Doom engine isn't entirely modder-friendly. Sure, the data files it uses allow for additional maps and textures to be included without overwriting the originals; but back in the day, you had to edit the executable directly in order to change most of the game's behaviour. It was made easier by the developers of third-party tools such as Dehacked.

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Gez said:
You sound entitled as fuck. "That's not my field."

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Pure Hellspawn said:


There's still a way to cheat around that. Once the player dies, they use RESURRECT.

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Tango said:
why would you want to force cheats being disabled? that just seems really, really dumb. pointless. why

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Sergeant_Mark_IV said:


Give the player an custom inventory item during his death state. During his spawn animation, keep checking if the player has said inventory. If he has it, it means that he resurrected, so, jump to Xdeath state.

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DASI-I said:
I was wondering how I could disable cheats in my custom WAD so that, under no circumstance, can anybody use stuff like "no cliping", "give all weapons", etc... This WAD will have to work in GZDoom. I know that it can be done because I've played WADs that won't let me use stuff like IDKFA or IDCLIP.
thanx ^_^

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TheDarkArchon said:
What exactly will the ability to disable cheats allow you to do, aside from demonstrating that you are a massive control freak?

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Snakes said:

Ah, someone shares my views on this.

Stripping away and disabling cheats will only alienate a large majority of users. I don't cheat, but it would annoy to simply know that something like this has been implemented and exists. There's also the fact that, in all likelihood, some anonymous player would go out of the way to upload a version of the wad with the cheating reinstated, just to spite the author. This is the internet, after all.

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gemini09 said:
As for alienating a large majority of users --- eh, so, a large majority of Doom players actually cheat..? Are we all 10 years old here?

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I know the advantage of cheats. If you have a semi-decent wad, and just want to explore what's there without investing any time, then cheats are great.

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But what if, say, Halo, was built on the Doom engine? Say that it used ZDoom.

Would it be appropriate for Halo to have an IDKFA cheat that suddenly brought in weapons and keys from an entirely different game?

What if my mod is something that uses 0% of Doom's resources? None of the Doom weapons, keys, enemies, or anything are used - all is new.

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Would it be appropriate - or desirable, for my new game, to have cheats from ANOTHER game?

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qoncept said:

Don't worry about alienating people by disabling cheats. You've already got that covered.

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And that's it? What if the game is too hard? What if you just want to kill as many monsters as possible without scrounging for ammo? It might not be the way you intend the game to be played, but I don't see how restricting the player could possibly be construed as a good thing.


Huh? Why would a new game use the Doom engine and add weapons without just replacing the existing resources? If your game has a Fleshlight and no pistol, REPLACE the pistol.


Who knows? If someone wants to play the game as it's intended they aren't going to cheat.

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qoncept said:
Good luck with your mod.

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DASI-I said:
I was wondering how I could disable cheats in my custom WAD so that, under no circumstance, can anybody use stuff like "no cliping", "give all weapons", etc... This WAD will have to work in GZDoom. I know that it can be done because I've played WADs that won't let me use stuff like IDKFA or IDCLIP.
thanx ^_^

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lzvk25 said:
And that's why I love ZDoom and GZDoom. Because I can CHEAT. After a long day of work, I want to release some frustration and not get frustrated in the process.

Also in order to avoid control freaks, I always check inside the wads and pk3s and look for things I don't like, obviously, I edit or remove them. And as you can imagine I already have my custom made super weapons mod which is, of course, way unbalanced in my favor thanks to decorate and acs. (Don't worry, I won't release it, too many people will scream and cry precisely because it is a super cheat... Duh!).

So, Mr control freak, no matter what you do in ZDoom, I will always be able to cheat since my real life profession for many years has been Systems Programmer / Analyst and after so many years of decorate and acs, I got you covered.

BTW, it was ID Software the one who started the cheats with the infamous "IDDQD", isn't it ? So, what the heck are you even daring to tell us ? That you are better than us ? LOL !!

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