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Harmata
Loser


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And so, these sprites is a reaction by means of Doom-mapping of Pussy Riot's recent vagary in Moscow. IMHO, some women do deserve tortures, and Pussy Riot are the first candidates on it.

Ohhohohohoho, you just made my day bro!

...

I don't believe you.

Old Post 10-10-12 09:14 #
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Pottus
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Posts: 802
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I think this the first time and hopefully the last I swear on here but, dude what you did was pretty fucked up, now we know for sure you are fucked up.

Old Post 10-10-12 10:33 #
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[LeD]Jake Crusher
Green Marine


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Oh, geez, not this again...
OK, may I have something to say in Shadowman's defense? :)

First of all - guys, I just don't understand, is there really a meaning of these debates? Accusing the author of "porn-fetishism", etc - don't be ridiculous, as long as I know him, I would have never even thought of him as a pervert. What are you trying to prove, by telling, what's on his mind, without even knowing him personally? Oh, sorry, I forgot - this is the Internet, where people say everything they want...

Second - I was a bit surprised myself, when learned about the meaning of those sprites. Nevertheless, I wasn't shocked. Why? Although I don't fully support Shadowman's opinion of PR's tortures, still I think that they do deserve...um... public flogging, if you ask me. And please, try to understand few things. Cathedral of Christ the Saviour is not only a church - if you know the history, then you know that at the same time - it is a memorial to fallen soldiers of the Patriotic War of 1812, and to the Russian people sacrifices. So, PR's vagary - is a sort of a "spit in the face" to Russian people, mostly believers (not all of them, I know - but nevertheless...). Those 3 idiots have to be punished, for that. Because tell me, and honestly, if any man is relatively sane - would he support their deed (and especially - WHERE they done that)?
Personally, I think not.
I'm not mentioning their actions BEFORE their arrest (google yourself, if you'd like).

Yeah. Doom is now anyhow related to the politics. It's a dirty game (politics, I mean), and it corrupts almost every man, who's more or less working in that field. But my guess is Shadowman tries to explain his opinion of that matter. Let's not forget that "The Inquisitor" is not about our world. It is a dark fantasy world (where guns and magic are bound together). In which many cruel things are possible (medieval inquisition - remember that? Catholics, protestants, burning people, torturing...). Of course, it can be related somehow to our reality, but only in details. And yes. Shadowman's opinion is not related to politics (or to Putin, like dew wrote) - that is his reaction towards PR's vagary, and that's it.
And ATST (at the same time) I do realize that the American media can portray PR in a different way than we know. Like it was in 08.08.2008, when people believed that it was Russia, as an agressor, towards Georgia. But in nowadays, we know that it has been otherwise, right?

Well, I don't want to blame anyone here for something. But let's be honest with ourselves - do you really believe that just because Shadowman has shown his opinion about PR, he is a "brainwashed"? Maybe we are all brainwashed (no offense) - some more, some less? It may probably depend on the topic we're talking about...

I know that you may consider everything I wrote an off-topic. Still, this is first time I decided to write post like this in such situation.
And yeah, maybe instead of judging Shadowman's actions and his views, maybe you will play wad first (at least it's version, where author replaced those sprites with low-res ones), and then we'll have a discussion about this (if you want to discuss, of course)?

Last edited by [LeD]Jake Crusher on 10-10-12 at 11:17

Old Post 10-10-12 11:01 #
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Shadowman
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I'm surprised that everyone here have apprehended the wad only in a context of my words about PR, though it's only an Easter egg. As it has been noted by Jake Crusher (in a post above mine), the wad isn't directly connected with the current politics and etc. More than that - this is my third attempt to realize the idea of "The Inquisitor". If someone's interested - first wad on this subject I made in 2006 for JDoom. The second attempt has appeared incomplete, but I do have "Inquisitor" with only 2 levels for GZDoom (2007). This current wad is the third, which is at the same time the first, which made it to the release. And if you want - I may give links to the earlier "Inquisitors". But I must say that I haven't used jDooM for a long time, and I don't know, how dated from 2006 the first "Inquisitor" will run on the latest Doomsday (it was supposed to run on 1.8.6 version).

Old Post 10-10-12 11:46 #
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zap610
JETSONZ KREW 4LYF


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To be fair I probably wouldn't play this if it had naked men either.

Old Post 10-10-12 12:34 #
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Harmata
Loser


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Shadowman, that's not how you put "second meaning" into video games. You can't simply put a dead black baby on a map and then hope that people will understand it as a reference to hunger in Africa, you can't write DADDY IT HURTS on several walls and then expect people to understand that this is a reference to child abuse, you can't put couple o' crucified females and expect that people will understand that this is about that whole Pussy Riot shebang in Russia, there's simply no connection besides the fact that Pussy Riot is a female band, and those are sprites with tortured females. There must be a link, people must understand what you are implying.

Old Post 10-10-12 12:48 #
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Infurnus
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Posts: 211
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A reference to recent events in popular culture can go in many different directions.
Just look at what people think of Family Guy, or South Park for that matter.

Old Post 10-10-12 13:37 #
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mouldy
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this thread should be sent to post hell for 2 years for expressing an unpopular point of view.

Old Post 10-10-12 14:29 #
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Harmata
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A reference to recent events in popular culture can go in many different directions.

This time it didn't go anywhere. If he didn't tell us that it is reference to Pussy Riot, we would never guessed it, and no one can blame us.

Old Post 10-10-12 15:07 #
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kmxexii
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I think of an Easter egg as something Light-hearted or universally meaningful, like George Jetson in CCHEST4's MAP20 or the various tributes to dearly departed friends in the same mapset. Something meant to advocate the torture of actual human beings is unpalatable to me. That you don't think it's a big deal only serves to emphasize why it's a big deal to me and similarly minded individuals.

Old Post 10-10-12 15:24 #
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Eris Falling
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Infurnus said:
A reference to recent events in popular culture can go in many different directions.
Just look at what people think of Family Guy, or South Park for that matter.



Except, with Family Guy at least, they say what the reference is to, or make it very obvious what it's referring to.

No-one would've guessed these sprites were referring to Pussy Riot, had it not been stated.

Old Post 10-10-12 15:48 #
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Harmata
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Something meant to advocate the torture of actual human beings

Who said this map does that? Gee, it's like we're back in 1990s, the era of "murder simulators". Someone went full hipster.

Old Post 10-10-12 16:19 #
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Grazza
Let's try Caesium


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Harmata said:
Who said this map does that?
Shadowman himself, in the very text you quoted above.

Old Post 10-10-12 16:22 #
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Harmata
Loser


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And so, these sprites is a reaction by means of Doom-mapping of Pussy Riot's recent vagary in Moscow. IMHO, some women do deserve tortures, and Pussy Riot are the first candidates on it.

Umm, this post? It's simply his opinion, the map wasn't created to promote violence. Seriously, i don't even think that this "easter egg" was created to imply what Shadowman now says it is implying, it's like he got scared because people were accusing him of "torture-porn fetishism" or whatever, and just came up with badly formulated explanation to calm things down. I don't think he was sitting behind his computer and thinking: "Man, i sure hate those chicks, i should put couple of naked crucified ladies and a female head-on-a-stick on my Doom II map to show 'em and to promote such behavior! *evil laughter*".
Edit: fixed couple of mistakes.

Last edited by Harmata on 10-10-12 at 17:07

Old Post 10-10-12 16:40 #
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kmxexii
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Harmata said:

Umm, this post? It's simply his opinion, the map wasn't created to promote violence. Seriously, i don't even think that this "easter egg" was created to imply what Shadowman now says it is implying, it's like he got scared because people were accusing him of "torture-porn fetishism" or whatever, and just came out with explanation to calm things down in badly formulated explanation. I don't think he was sitting behind his computer and thinking: "Man, i sure hate those chicks, i should put couple of naked crucified ladies and a female head-on-a-stick on my Doom II map to show 'em! and to promote such behavior! *evil laughter*".



I didn't say that the map was created to promote his negative reaction to Pussy Riot, but the Easter egg certainly was. If you can read something different out of it you have a very different thought process than myself.

Old Post 10-10-12 17:05 #
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Harmata
Loser


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but the Easter egg certainly was

Yes, because until he said that himself it was so obvious that those females were Pussy Riot. Shadowman sure sucks at propaganda.
The other problem i think is that some people used word "tortured" even tho there are no elements that focus on torture. There's one dead head and two naked females tied to poles, i don't think that there's accent on suffering. More like accent on boobies, and it can't be a bad thang.

Old Post 10-10-12 17:20 #
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Harmata
Loser


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Okay, let me clarify something: if he really used those sprites to tell that Pussy Riot deserve torturing, it is wrong and i can understand your opinion people. Sorry for calling you a hipster kmxexii, but these days you have a lot of people who search for "misogyny" or "terrorism" in video games simply to promote themselves, like that chick on kickstarter, and i don't want such shit in my industry. I would like to stress that even if he thinks that tortures are okay it has nothing to do with gaming, Doom or mapping. That is all, one love people.

Old Post 10-10-12 17:33 #
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dew
experts


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Harmata said:
i don't think that there's accent on suffering.

there's your mistake, assuming too much in shadowman's defence just because you "don't want such shit" in doom.

Old Post 10-10-12 17:39 #
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Cacowad
Member


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looking at the walktrought it seems to be a pretty solid map\s, i'll give it a try. About the naked corpose i found things a lot more disturbing... Well now you have a diablo I\II easter egg. ;)

Old Post 10-10-12 17:41 #
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mouldy
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Harmata said:
these days you have a lot of people who search for "misogyny" or "terrorism" in video games simply to promote themselves, like that chick on kickstarter, and i don't want such shit in my industry.


No, what you have is a few women pointing out the shitty deal they get in video games, and a lot of rabid sexually insecure blokes shouting back at them for daring to intrude on their manly world of looking at sexy ladies.

If you have any female friends who play video games you might understand this a bit better.

Old Post 10-10-12 18:12 #
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Harmata
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No, what you have is a few women pointing out the shitty deal they get in video games

And of course, you can give me an example of such shitty deal. You can't simply say that video games are full of misogyny, you need arguments.

there's your mistake, assuming too much in shadowman's defence

There is no accent judging by sprites, i can't read his thoughts of course.

Old Post 10-10-12 18:20 #
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mouldy
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Harmata said:

You can't simply say that video games are full of misogyny, you need arguments.



No, you need a pair of eyes and a functioning brain.

Old Post 10-10-12 18:39 #
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Harmata
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See people, that's what i was talking about.

Old Post 10-10-12 18:43 #
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Pottus
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War of the junior members.

Old Post 10-10-12 18:46 #
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Shadowman
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Harmata said:
=============================
"you can't put couple o' crucified females and expect that people will understand that this is about that whole Pussy Riot shebang in Russia, there's simply no connection besides the fact that Pussy Riot is a female band, and those are sprites with tortured females."
=============================

You know, I can agree with you, partly, as the hidden sense has appeared to be hidden rather deeply. When I was making "The Inquisitor", I suddenly got an idea to leave a hint, to events with PR, but it wasn't wad's central or main idea, as some people here have thought. If I would have expressed that hint more brightly (for example, drawn balaclavas on women's heads), it would turn out that wad became attached too much to PR, that I wanted to avoid. Years will pass, everyone will forget about PR, and wad will remain.
As a result, I left only a delicate hint (there are 3 women in the wad - just like with real PR defendants. One is fair-haired, two others aren't. Same is in the wad).
If you are familiar with the Cheogsh series, there are also "second sense" things, although without an author's explanation they aren't clear to the rest of the players. However, it doesn't prevent people just to play, without searching this "second sense", right?

Old Post 10-10-12 21:16 #
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Enjay
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Well, debate about hi-res Pussy Riot political commentary aside, I just got through playing it and it's a very well put together mod with some very nice tricks and puzzles and some interesting new enemies. It hangs together quite well as its own little story/world too. Some of the criticisms are fair enough (the difficulty moving around in the graveyard etc) and I did get stuck for a long time near the start wondering how I was supposed to get to the golden key but, yes, it's a pretty solid mod.

Old Post 10-10-12 22:16 #
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Harmata
Loser


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If you want to put a reference or a symbolic thing just for yourself then it's okay if nobody but you will understand it.

(there are 3 women in the wad - just like with real PR defendants. One is fair-haired, two others aren't. Same is in the wad).

Hahaha, not enough for people to get it, no direct connection, no association, nobody looks at hair color of decorations. Really, you shouldn't even mention PR on forums or should have

expressed that hint more brightly (for example, drawn balaclavas on women's heads)

I think you just became confused at some point, you wanted to make a reference to PR, but then you changed your mind. Either way, people are mad about the whole this tortures shebang.

Old Post 10-10-12 22:36 #
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Doom Juan
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Solarn said:

The reason depictions of tortured women are more degrading to women that depictions of tortured men are degrading to men is because men are in power.



That comment just reeks of ultra-feminist propaganda with an obvious agenda behind it, and is utterly one-sided.

Men are in power? What does that even mean? Let us take the example of women tennis players: I recall them complaining that they were being paid less than men - but men played 5 sets, and women played only 3 so surely men should get paid more. But female players argued that they were just as popular as male players and should get the same money. So why not reduce men's tennis so that they played 3 sets, and then pay both sexes equally?

But women didn't suggest that. They just argued to be paid the same. What this shows me is that women are complaining about a situation not really to achieve fairness, but instead achieve a better deal for themselves. Now men and women do get the same pay at Wimbledon: "equality has finally caught up with the home of British tennis" was the way one newspaper source put it.

But if this is equality, why do men have to worker harder for the same reward? Why is it ok to discriminate against men in the amount of work that they must do, but not ok to discriminate in the amount they are paid?

And on a side note, I recall Duke Nukem 3D having tortured women in it - and the ability to kill them if you so decided, and I find it odd that anyone would moan about something so trivial in a doom wad of ALL things in 2012.

Last edited by Doom Juan on 10-10-12 at 23:20

Old Post 10-10-12 23:10 #
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dew
experts


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Doom Juan said:
crap

what the hell are you moaning about? feminist tennis conspiration with obvious agenda to do what, force 50% of marine corpses to be women? go get your meds, kid, you're loopy as fuck.

EDIT: so apparently this thread is so far gone by now that people think i'm talking about u.s. marine casaulties instead of doom marine corpse decorations. heh.

Last edited by dew on 10-10-12 at 23:44

Old Post 10-10-12 23:23 #
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Tarnsman
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dew said:

what the hell are you moaning about? feminist tennis conspiration with obvious agenda to do what, force 50% of marine corpses to be women? go get your meds, kid, you're loopy as fuck.



I think he's moaning about people who want equal pay for unequal work but is doing it in a retarded way. Wait... wasn't this thread about DOOM?

Old Post 10-10-12 23:31 #
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