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General Rainbow Bacon
may have been DoomHero85 at some point


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Okay, so, a lot of people don't like map e2m9, including me. So why don't we have a little mapping challenge as to what it SHOULD have been.

Use stock textures of course, and build something that makes more sense. Maybe we can go for a short episode of "fortress of mysteries"

What do you all think?

Old Post 10-13-12 18:06 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Sandy Petersen considers it his best map. They thought it was good enough to use it as the finale of Jaguar Doom (probably because it's the closest you can get to an end game boss level using weaker monsters). I thought it was a better secret map than E1M9 (or E4M9, but at least that had the whole "clash against the episode theme" thing going for it). What I'm saying is, I don't think this project is necessary, because E2M9 is a good secret map.

By all means, go on with the project if other people are interested, but all my submission would do is remove the useless computer map (swap it for berserk) and change the exit room to have an asininely long lowering floor instead of the key switches to make ignoring the monsters and running for the exit and nonviable strategy, which is what I think Sandy was going for with the keys. Ideally the map would've been set up to use tag 666, opening the door when all the monsters are dead, or just ending the level automatically.

Old Post 10-13-12 19:17 #
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Six
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Dragonsbrethren said:
I don't think this project is necessary, because E2M9 is a good secret map.


That's a matter of opinion, really.

When i first discovered this level i never really understood the concept or design choices behind it. There were several theories suggested such as encouraging infighting, or a test of skill to the player due to the large amount of higher tier enemies and their positioning.

With these in mind, they don't equal a bad level. The fact remains is that the map is just too short. When i go to the effort of finding a secret level, i want to be rewarded, and i wasn't, i was let down. The level could've included a lot more, the potential was there it just wasn't executed well enough in my own opinion.

If anyone does partake in this challenge, i'd be interested on their take on what they believe it could've been.

Old Post 10-13-12 20:26 #
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Ribbiks
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Honestly I kinda like e2m9. Instead of making a 'better' version, why not have the project be similar the waste tunnels one, ie:

reinterpret the map in your own way in X amount of time.

would only d1 monsters/weapons allowed? seems like that requirement would make the maps less fun.

Old Post 10-13-12 20:27 #
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Xaser
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There sure do seem to be a lot of these "Make a bunch of maps in the style of map x" challenges lately. Keep this up and we'll have a whole megawad for each level of Doom. :P

Old Post 10-13-12 20:56 #
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General Rainbow Bacon
may have been DoomHero85 at some point


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In the OP I didn't say we all thought it was a "bad" level, we just don't like it cuz it's short and uninteresting by today's standards.

Let's make a fortress that's more, fortressy.

Also, I'm basing this thread off of all the "best levels in Doom 1" yadda yadda yadda threads where everyone seems to hate this map equally.

E:

Just because Sandy thought it was his best map doesn't mean we have to think so or like it.

The people who made Doom were just that, people, not gods, we don't have to worship everything they made as the perfect project.

Last edited by General Rainbow Bacon on 10-13-12 at 22:24

Old Post 10-13-12 22:19 #
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LkMax
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Then start by remaking the map yourself
;-P
it's not hard if you plan to make minor changes and stay on the vanilla compatibility.
I actually found e2m9 simple and efficient, good for a fast bonus map.

Old Post 10-14-12 01:47 #
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General Rainbow Bacon
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Yeah, I will. Just wanted to know if someone else wanted to join in.

Old Post 10-14-12 02:29 #
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LkMax
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Well, I know what you mean but... of course I can't speak for everyone but from the 36 maps of Ultimate Doom e2m9 is the last I would think getting inspiration from. That and the boss levels.

Old Post 10-14-12 02:50 #
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General Rainbow Bacon
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I didn't mean get inspiration from it. Just make whatever you think a "Fortress of Mystery" should look like.

Old Post 10-14-12 04:28 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Fortress of Mystery in name only is much more interesting to me than "everyone thinks E2M9 sucks so make a better map." I might actually give this a shot now, only because I already know exactly what I'm going to do for a start area.

Old Post 10-14-12 04:43 #
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hex11
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The challenge as it stands is not very interesting. Anybody can pull a bigass fortress out of their ass and then laugh at Sandy behind his back like they just pwnd his sorry ass. No real challenge... So why not up the ante a bit? Your new map can't use any more vertices, linedefs, sectors, or things than the original E2M9. Let's see if you can actually make a "better" map within those parameters. If not, then it just means Sandy is still da king, baby! ;-/)

Edit: Well, 19 sectors might be hard to work with, but sticking with the same vertex count (150) and things (53) should allow enough room for interesting designs.

Last edited by hex11 on 10-14-12 at 11:02

Old Post 10-14-12 10:52 #
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General Rainbow Bacon
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Hmm. I like your idea Hex.

Based on what you did for by bday wad, can't wait to see what you come up with db! btw, thanx for that map.

Old Post 10-14-12 13:44 #
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LkMax
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hex11 said:
The challenge as it stands is not very interesting. Anybody can pull a bigass fortress out of their ass and then laugh at Sandy behind his back like they just pwnd his sorry ass. No real challenge... So why not up the ante a bit? Your new map can't use any more vertices, linedefs, sectors, or things than the original E2M9. Let's see if you can actually make a "better" map within those parameters. If not, then it just means Sandy is still da king, baby! ;-/)

Edit: Well, 19 sectors might be hard to work with, but sticking with the same vertex count (150) and things (53) should allow enough room for interesting designs.


Hey, that's actually an interesting idea! I don't think I'll participate, though, since I'm already dedicated to a full original episode I'm working on (and studying a bit of ACS/Decorate).


hex11 said:
Edit: Well, 19 sectors might be hard to work with, but sticking with the same vertex count (150) and things (53) should allow enough room for interesting designs. [/B]

Not really, you can just make giant sectors of the same height and flats and abuse the "merge sectors" function. (I do something similar with some of my maps, but only when it is possible, not as a limitation imposed).
On the other hand you can't do this kind of stuff with linedefs and vertices without making looong same-looking corridors - that's the real challenge.

EDIT: Also, 10 Sectors.

Old Post 10-14-12 14:36 #
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General Rainbow Bacon
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Okay, here's my submission.

Fortress of Mystery done GRB style.

Enjoy.

http://www.mediafire.com/?qo290mm21bc69l1

Old Post 10-14-12 18:54 #
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Philnemba
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I'm interested in doing this since I'm a sucker for ep2 theme maps so once I get back home from work, I'll fire up my DB2 and see what kind of "Fortress of Mystery" I can make.

Old Post 10-14-12 19:38 #
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hex11
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This project still alive?

Here's my attempt (using DEU 5.21 and BSP 3):
http://depositfiles.com/files/0w0xtus0p

Went over the linedef/sidedef count, but kept same number of things, vertices and sectors as the original map. Was hoping to get it running in Doom 1.2, but there's too much HOM...

Old Post 10-25-12 20:10 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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I put my map off to the side since it just wasn't very fun.

Old Post 10-25-12 20:32 #
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Hellbent
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General Rainbow Bacon said:
Okay, so, a lot of people don't like map e2m9, including me. So why don't we have a little mapping challenge as to what it SHOULD have been.

Use stock textures of course, and build something that makes more sense. Maybe we can go for a short episode of "fortress of mysteries"

What do you all think?

This guy is my doppelgånger. I love it! Straight out of the Hellbent bag of tricks this one comes. :D

Old Post 10-25-12 23:18 #
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