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ellmo
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I always thought a lot of people missed the point why DTWiD was created and why was it created the way... it was created. I thought people playing with modern GL ports or Brutal Doom should be ashamed, also those who say it's not challenging enough evidently miss the point! Yadda-yadda.

Well... here's my attempt at playing DTWiD almost the way it was designed to be played - which means dark, software, pixelated goody-goody (I do use some wads to enhance the visuals, the sounds and the music, but nothing that changes gameplay or adds those abysmal GL particles).

To make it a little more challenging than a mere LP or walkthrough, I've decided that the format of this video series will be:

  • 100% secrets
  • pistol start
  • fast monsters on UV


Currently I did 3 levels and I'm on e1m9 which is a complete mayhem on Fast Pistol.



Old Post 10-31-12 02:08 #
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Sarcose
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I applaud your efforts. I've been playing DTWiD in Chocolate with a keyboard on UV. Now I am tempted to restart with fast monsters.

It is frustrating to go back to keyboardin after mousing for so long, so I usually end up quitting after about fifteen minutes and going to something else though.

Old Post 10-31-12 02:13 #
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ellmo
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Sarcose said:
I applaud your efforts. I've been playing DTWiD in Chocolate with a KEYBOARD on UV.


No, no... I applaud YOUR efforts.
But I'm playing on OSX and with this stupid mouse acceleration model it's almost as bad as going back to keyboardin' ^_^

Old Post 10-31-12 02:19 #
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40oz
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what does brutal doom have that your extra frame animations, blood effects, shell ejections, particles, alternate HUD and right handed pistol doesn't?

Old Post 10-31-12 03:37 #
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Pottus
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I've only ever known guy who could punch the keyboard as good as an average mouser.

Old Post 10-31-12 03:40 #
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esselfortium
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40oz said:
what does brutal doom have that your extra frame animations, blood effects, shell ejections, particles, alternate HUD and right handed pistol doesn't?

Brutal Doom changes the monster and weapon behaviors pretty significantly. The result from what I've seen is a much slower-paced game with more sniping around corners. And zoom scopes.

It looks like ellmo is using the combination of EDF stuff from Vaporware that I ported from Perkristian's smooth weapons pack and elsewhere. Those are solely cosmetic changes that should have no effect on gameplay whatsoever.

Old Post 10-31-12 03:48 #
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TimeOfDeath
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How was dtwid designed to be played, anyway? There's no mention of what exe it was tested with or designed for in the txt file. Unless it's implied that it's designed for doom.exe, then I guess ellmo missed the point too. Btw, there are two dtwid threads in the demos forum.

Old Post 10-31-12 04:28 #
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Xaser
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TimeOfDeath said:
How was dtwid designed to be played, anyway? There's no mention of what exe it was tested with or designed for in the txt file. Unless it's implied that it's designed for doom.exe, then I guess ellmo missed the point too.

If Doomworld wasn't so classy, I'd post a "WAT" reaction image here.

Old Post 10-31-12 05:05 #
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vdgg
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This is going to be a funny and instructive thread; for me ellmo crossed the line already with these smooth weapons or whatever; if I want to play vanilla mapsets "as intended", I only allow myself:
- Vanilla, or
- Chocolate Doom, or
- Higher resolutions, thus PrBoom+ with vanilla complevels. Eternity would do as well, but I'm not used to it.

Old Post 10-31-12 10:16 #
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Khorus
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vdgg said:
This is going to be a funny and instructive thread; for me ellmo crossed the line already with these smooth weapons or whatever; if I want to play vanilla mapsets "as intended", I only allow myself:
- Vanilla, or
- Chocolate Doom, or
- Higher resolutions, thus PrBoom+ with vanilla complevels. Eternity would do as well, but I'm not used to it.



Heh, indeed. I think it's rather arrogant to complain that people aren't playing the exact way you intended your vanilla mapset to be played. It's one of the strengths of working with the vanilla base, that people can choose to play it with their favourite port and with alterations to the game that they prefer (or the complete opposite, using the original .exe).

I couldn't give a toss how people play my work be it port or gameplay alterations. The fact that someone has played something of mine is great, and if they have fun while they're at it then that's awesome.

Old Post 10-31-12 10:52 #
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ellmo
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40oz said:
what does brutal doom have that your extra frame animations, blood effects, shell ejections, particles, alternate HUD and right handed pistol doesn't?

Fatalities!
And yes, the alternate hud and right handed weapon have as much impact on the game as a scripted mod with completely new weapons.


esselfortium said:
It looks like ellmo is using the combination of EDF stuff from Vaporware that I ported from Perkristian's smooth weapons pack and elsewhere. Those are solely cosmetic changes that should have no effect on gameplay whatsoever.

That is true.

vdgg said:
This is going to be a funny and instructive thread; for me ellmo crossed the line already with these smooth weapons or whatever; if I want to play vanilla mapsets "as intended", I only allow myself:
- Vanilla, or
- Chocolate Doom, or
- Higher resolutions, thus PrBoom+ with vanilla complevels. Eternity would do as well, but I'm not used to it.



de gustibus non est disputandum, I guess. Smooth animations don't change the outcome of a fight in any way, neither does the hi-quality sound replacement nor the ogg music (which I'm actually forced to sue, because OSX eternity has a problem with midis). You could argue the same for GL ports, but the lightning they create completely kills the atmosphere for me.


Khorus said:
Heh, indeed. I think it's rather arrogant to complain that people aren't playing the exact way you intended your vanilla mapset to be played.

Now, now - I really meant it in a sarcastic, jokingly-brazen, in-yo-face manner. I really didn't mean to say I have the monopoly for playing a PWAD the right way. I merely described my state of mind when I started playing, but then I realized how much I get raped on -fast pistol starts. That's why I started recording. Just for fun.

I'm not throwing a glove down here, guys.

Old Post 10-31-12 11:24 #
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Gez
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vdgg said:
vanilla mapsets "as intended"

My approach is that a vanilla mapset is intended to work on any port that can play the vanilla levels (which are id software's IWADs).

If people insist on using gameplay-changing mods, it's their business; not mine. Heck, they can play Stronghold or KDiZD with Brutal Doom too. It won't work well because of all the replacement conflicts, but it's their problem to deal with.


Sarcose said:
It is frustrating to go back to keyboardin after mousing for so long, so I usually end up quitting after about fifteen minutes and going to something else though.

...

Can you keep a secret? It's a dark, sinister secret that would completely blow most Doomers' minds. Take care. Be sure to be sat as your legs may fail you upon reading this:

Spoiler:
The default control setting in vanilla Doom has been "Keyboard + Mouse" since the original shareware release of December 1993.


Now beware. The Opus Vanillei is trying to extinguish this knowledge, considered blasphemous against the ways of the Keyboard Only. They are trying to claim that novert never existed. They may send hitzombiemen against you. If you hear a teleport sound, grab your shotgun immediately!

Old Post 10-31-12 11:28 #
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ellmo
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Gez said:
The Opus Vanillei is trying to extinguish this knowledge, considered blasphemous against the ways of the Keyboard Only.

A powerful organization they are. So powerful that in your single post you have nothing against people mixing up different mods, but keyboard-only is something to point at and laugh.
You know as well as I do, that there are speed-demo authors, who play on keyboard only, not because they're bothered with "what might people say if I'm not 100% vanilla", but becasue they feel comfortable this way.

EDIT: I meant demo authors, not speedmappers obviously.

Last edited by ellmo on 10-31-12 at 11:44

Old Post 10-31-12 11:34 #
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Gez
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ellmo said:
A powerful organization they are. So powerful that in your single post you have nothing against people mixing up different mods, but keyboard-only is something to point at and laugh.

If people are comfortable playing keyboard only, it's fine.

If people are uncomfortable playing keyboard only, finding it so frustrating that they can't bear to play longer than a quarter of hour, but yet insist upon doing so out of an erroneous belief that this is a purer, vanillaer, Doom-as-id-intended-er way, then yeah it's ridiculous.

Old Post 10-31-12 12:07 #
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ellmo
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Gez said:

If people are comfortable playing keyboard only, it's fine.

If people are uncomfortable playing keyboard only, finding it so frustrating that they can't bear to play longer than a quarter of hour, but yet insist upon doing so out of an erroneous belief that this is a purer, vanillaer, Doom-as-id-intended-er way, then yeah it's ridiculous.


I see your point now. I agree.

Okay, time to finally beat e1m9!

Old Post 10-31-12 12:22 #
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Memfis
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I played the whole wad (well, its beta version) on -fast from pistol starts, that was very fun. demos, beta wad link


ellmo said:
To make it a little more challenging... 100% secrets

Don't you think that 0% secrets would be more challenging? ;)

Old Post 10-31-12 12:31 #
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ellmo
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Memfis said:
I played the whole wad (well, its beta version) on -fast from pistol starts, that was very fun. demos, beta wad link


Don't you think that 0% secrets would be more challenging? ;)


:) actually it would be less challenging (for me), because then I'd run to the exit, like I was on fire, instead of hunting secrets

Also in e1m9 there's a bastard secret with shotgun guys in dark places, my last attempt at recording the video ended inside a secret :(

EDIT: I think you played the alpha version which was completely different. Those posts and lumps predate DTWiD's release date (Dec 10th 2011)

Last edited by ellmo on 10-31-12 at 12:42

Old Post 10-31-12 12:36 #
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Sarcose
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I started out playing DooM on keyboard. I'm trying to play through DTWiD on keyboard UV as a matter of personal challenge. I didn't make a single argument about purity here. Get off my ass.

edit: I know mouse+keyboard was supported. As a child I thought using a mouse to move was preposterous, primarily because I didn't even strafe so I didn't see how it made the game go faster (I was like: "the forward speed for the mouse is ridiculous! I'd rather use the arrow keys.")

edit edit: for what it's worth I do that with a lot of games: stop playing after about fifteen minutes. I'm playing doom in about four different WAD/setting configurations right now, alternating regularly. DTWiD is the only one I'm playing without a mechanics-enhancing sourceport, keyboard only.

Last edited by Sarcose on 10-31-12 at 15:40

Old Post 10-31-12 15:24 #
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Imp
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Which wads did you use for the visuals and sounds?

Old Post 10-31-12 16:10 #
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esselfortium
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ellmo said:

EDIT: I think you played the alpha version which was completely different. Those posts and lumps predate DTWiD's release date (Dec 10th 2011)


Yeah, a majority of the maps from the original alpha were replaced entirely.

Old Post 10-31-12 19:31 #
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ellmo
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Imp said:
Which wads did you use for the visuals and sounds?

The high resolution doom sound pack and smooth weapon animations were made by Per Kristian and were both posted on these forums. The weapon mod one I believe has DECORATE code designed to work with ZDoom. esselfortium rewrote the DECORATE code into Eternity's format (which is also available in the link I provided, together with DDF for Doomsday)

The ejecting brass and spurting blood I believe I picked from Vaporware, an Eternity megawad that esselfortium and others are working on.

The ogg music was taken from Sycraft's page.

Old Post 10-31-12 21:15 #
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Feniks
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I don't get why some people think that playing only with keyboard makes this game more vanilla. Not only did the earliest version of Doom support mouse, but even Wolfenstein 3D did so. Not sure about Catacomb 3D, though.

I for one have never really played Doom with keyboard only, even though I strongly prefer vanilla Doom to stuff like Brutal Doom etc. I converted to the mouse-only setting when playing Wolf 3D. It was much more efficient and precise, though harder at the beginning. I started playing Doom with mouse only, but it was a bit too slow, so I added the arrow keys, shift, comma and period to my personal setup.

I'm now trying DTWID on UV-fast with pistol start too. The first three maps were pretty easy, but I've had a lot of trouble with E1M4. I don't know how to get past all these annoying demons. I once managed to dodge all of them only to have a close encounter with a spectre. Of course it ate me, and I quit out of frustration. Anyway, I'm going to try once more.

Last edited by Feniks on 10-31-12 at 23:34

Old Post 10-31-12 23:28 #
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Glaice
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I might just do ep2 and ep3 with a modded BD where it's more like vanilla than extra aggressive monsters.

Old Post 10-31-12 23:50 #
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ellmo
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Wow, I just finished e1m9, that map is BRUTAL, although 50% of it's difficulty is leaving the enterance staircase with more than half of your health. I fucked up a little, forgot which secret I missed and got confused. Without that backtracing it would probably be one minute shorter and still I thought my heart was gonna burst out my chest at points where I had less than 10% health. I haven't had this feeling of accomplishment in a while :D

This is fun!

The video is still rendering, so let me present you one of the most failed attempts in the meantime. I gave it a title:

"why don't you just run?"

Old Post 11-01-12 00:39 #
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ellmo
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many, many attempts later:

Old Post 11-01-12 02:01 #
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hex11
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Sheeet, I don't even own a mouse. Haven't for at least 10 years now. Keyboard-only is my only real option, so that's how I play. And it is harder. And I also choose not to use saves, but that's for other reasons entirely. And of course no mouse means no freelook, thus another reason for me to stick with pure vanilla maps.

Funny thing about DOOM is it came out at a time when you couldn't guarantee the user would own a mouse. A lot of people were still running straight DOS, even if they did have Windows 3.1 or whatever (RAM wasn't cheap, had to run bare-bones to play most games). But mice weren't that expenive either, and some games did use them, or at least had an option for them. So really, there was no "default" control for DOOM, you could go keyboard-only, keyboard+mouse, or keyboard+joystick.

But never FPS (including Quake) became almost impossible to play without a mouse. The vertical autoaim still works to some degree (turn off mlook, and adjust sv_aim as needed), but it still makes the game difficult (instead of impossible) and is almost completely useless for DM.

The closest you'll get to the original is with one of those three input modes, 320x200 software rendering, and either play it in vanilla or Chocolate Doom. I also run it with Freedoom, but then I run everything with Freedoom. Theoretically this doesn't affect gameplay, but some of the sounds and sprites are either missing or underdetailed, so it makes the game a bit harder. For example, some of the revenant's sounds are empty, and his sprites are almost entirely black, so he's quite the ninja bastard at times (fades in really nicely against ashwall, in darker corners, etc.)

Old Post 11-01-12 03:56 #
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Sarcose
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hex11, I have to say, that part about the revenant is close to hilarious and makes me wonder if there should be/is a "Doom: extra glitches" edition that just adds brokenness to the game for the sake of sadistic "fun".

Old Post 11-01-12 06:03 #
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ellmo
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Feniks said:
(...)The first three maps were pretty easy, but I've had a lot of trouble with E1M4. I don't know how to get past all these annoying demons. I once managed to dodge all of them only to have a close encounter with a spectre. Of course it ate me, and I quit out of frustration. Anyway, I'm going to try once more.


Well, here's my playthrough. I had to redo it a lot of times because of the confusing secrets.

Old Post 11-01-12 23:19 #
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Feniks
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Yeah, I already beat that level. It isn't hard on the whole, just at the beginning. It's actually the first time I'm really playing anything on UV-fast from scratch, mostly because I found DTWID way too easy to play continuously on UV and stopped after two or three maps. So, I'm not used to playing this way yet.

The next two maps seem a lot easier with fast monsters, for example, E1M5 greets you with a shotgun and ammo at the very start. I beat it in the first attempt. Admittedly, I died in the spectre trap in E1M6 but it's only a matter of foreknowledge.

Old Post 11-01-12 23:30 #
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Hellbent
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ellmo said:


Well, here's my playthrough. I had to redo it a lot of times because of the confusing secrets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuQNpbCSstg#t=16s

hahaha, nice work with the imp fireballs in the beginning.

Last edited by Hellbent on 11-02-12 at 00:17

Old Post 11-02-12 00:10 #
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