HYMN: A Heretic Community Project!

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Egregor
Junior Member

Posts: 118
Registered: 11-12

EvilNed01:

As this project evolves the resources have been updated. Download this:

http://www.mediafire.com/?td7a1vw2h72b9sb

Remove the old texture pack from your level, and place this new one there instead. All the textures should replace correctly, only now with cross-port compatibility. Hope this helps!

Alwaysdoomed:

Its similar to HPack in that its a Heretic community project. Though it is different in that: A it only uses a small amount of new textures, B it only uses the original items, monsters, etc., C its only one episode long, D anyone can submit a map by April 1st, though only the best 9 levels will be used (unless there are so many entries 2 episodes can be created).

Last edited by Egregor on 11-11-12 at 23:24

11-11-12 23:18 #

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EvilNed01
Junior Member

Posts: 129
Registered: 03-11

Ok. I get it.

Updated the map with the new texture pack.

The texture MOSSRCKA-E is for whatever reason not working in the latest Doomsday release ( I just tested myself ) , but it works in zDoom.

11-12-12 00:01 #

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kristus
Megablast!

Posts: 10273
Registered: 07-00

probably because it got ten letters in the name.

11-12-12 00:41 #

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Gez
Why don't I have a custom title by now?!

Posts: 9159
Registered: 07-07

kristus said:
probably because it got ten letters in the name.

This is a technical impossibility, since texture names have only eight characters on which to be written.

They are five textures named MOSSRCKA, MOSSRCKB, MOSSRCKC, MOSSRCKD, and MOSSRCKE. They are present in PNAMES and TEXTURES appropriately.

Unless Doomsday got confused by the namespace markers being somewhat mismatched (PP_START/P_END), I don't know why they don't work. And the marker explanation is doubtful since those patch markers are normally ignored by the Doom engine.

11-12-12 00:56 #

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A.Gamma
Junior Member

Posts: 146
Registered: 08-09

EvilNed01 said:
Ok. I get it.

Updated the map with the new texture pack.

The texture MOSSRCKA-E is for whatever reason not working in the latest Doomsday release ( I just tested myself ) , but it works in zDoom.

Not only it works on Zdoom, but also on Legacy, Vavoom, and even the Eternity alphas. But for some reason it won't work on Doomsday (I'm using 1.9.19 build 679).
Oddly enough, my map works just fine even in Doomsday.

EDIT: I did a litle experiment and it worked!
It seems that the problem lies within the 64x64 patches. Doomsday doesn't seems able to read them or something on those lines.

http://i.imgur.com/PeNpu.png.

Here I changed the MOSSRCKC texture (which is 64x64) for the CSTLRCK2 texture (64x128).

Maybe I'm wrong and this was mere change and it is instead something with the MOSSRCK patches.

Last edited by A.Gamma on 11-12-12 at 02:48

11-12-12 02:33 #

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Vermil
Senior Member

Posts: 1477
Registered: 03-04

Vermil said:

I'd actually like to know what was done to the MOSSRCKA-E textures in the texture wad (something carried over to EvilNed01's duplicates in his pwad); they display fine in the ancient Dday 1.8.6, but not 1.9.

Also, when I extracted those textures out and put them in my own test wad, they displayed fine in 1.9.

I quote myself.

When I remake the entire texture wad, the MOSRCKA-E textures don't display in Dday 1.9.

But when I extract the MOSRCKA-E textures and make a texture wad just consisting of them, they display fine in 1.9.

I say assume a there is an unknown and obscure bug in Dday 1.9 (the resource loading code has very recently been rewritten; perhaps a bug crept in during), that will be looked into and fixed and in the meantime ignore it and carry on.

Last edited by Vermil on 11-12-12 at 08:46

11-12-12 08:32 #

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EvilNed01
Junior Member

Posts: 129
Registered: 03-11

While we're on textures...

THere seems to be a bunch of textures missing from the updated texture file. Any reason why these were excluded? I rather enjoyed using them.

An example would be LOOSERCK, which was a good texture to use in a cave / Outdoor map.

11-12-12 09:10 #

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kristus
Megablast!

Posts: 10273
Registered: 07-00

Gez said:

This is a technical impossibility, since texture names have only eight characters on which to be written.

They are five textures named MOSSRCKA, MOSSRCKB, MOSSRCKC, MOSSRCKD, and MOSSRCKE. They are present in PNAMES and TEXTURES appropriately.

Unless Doomsday got confused by the namespace markers being somewhat mismatched (PP_START/P_END), I don't know why they don't work. And the marker explanation is doubtful since those patch markers are normally ignored by the Doom engine.

I misunderstood what he said then. The way he formulated it, I interpreted it as there being one texture called MOSSRCKA-E. Not a set of textures going from A to E.

11-12-12 10:56 #

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Egregor
Junior Member

Posts: 118
Registered: 11-12

EvilNed01 said:
While we're on textures...

THere seems to be a bunch of textures missing from the updated texture file. Any reason why these were excluded? I rather enjoyed using them.

An example would be LOOSERCK, which was a good texture to use in a cave / Outdoor map.

I am using doom builder 2. I removed HYMNTextures2.wad, re-downloaded and re-added it. I double checked, and I am not seeing (or counting) any missing textures with the HYMNTextures2.wad on my end, which includes LOOSRCK and its variations. Try removing it, downloading and adding it again. Hopefully that should help. Worse case scenario, you leave LOOSRCK in you map even if your computer doesn't recognize it because when the PWAD gets built it will be there.

11-12-12 10:57 #

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walter confalonieri
Senior Member

Posts: 1453
Registered: 07-09

so, i played the evilned01 map and is a really nice map, expect for the two HOMs i found:
http://i.imgur.com/S94AYs.png http://i.imgur.com/4Ckeds.png

and also, the texture pack give this fancy tutti effect on hereticp.exe, and don't found two textures:

11-12-12 13:49 #

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A.Gamma
Junior Member

Posts: 146
Registered: 08-09

walter confalonieri said:
so, i played the evilned01 map and is a really nice map, expect for the two HOMs i found:
http://imgur.com/S94AY http://imgur.com/4Cked

and also, the texture pack give this fancy tutti effect on hereticp.exe, and don't found two textures:

video

I think the cause of this are the 64x64 textures used extensively on EvilNed01 map, which coincidentally are the same ones causing problems on Doomsday... Also I'm not really sure we should keep using Heretic+, since it's only a modified exe, and we are using some boom definitions on our texture pack.

EvilNed01 said:
While we're on textures...

THere seems to be a bunch of textures missing from the updated texture file. Any reason why these were excluded? I rather enjoyed using them.

An example would be LOOSERCK, which was a good texture to use in a cave / Outdoor map.

I didn't remove any texture when the texture pack was updated. Maybe it somehow got corrupted when it was uploaded, so I'll re-upload it later tonight.

11-13-12 00:56 #

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DaniJ
Senior Member

Posts: 1958
Registered: 08-03

A.Gamma said:

I think the cause of this are the 64x64 textures used extensively on EvilNed01 map, which coincidentally are the same ones causing problems on Doomsday...

doomsday.out (from an upcoming build of Doomsday) said:

Warning: Lump MOSSRCKC.lmp (#2916) does not appear to be a valid Patch. It will be missing from texture "Textures:MOSSRCKC".

Actually, this is caused by an-out-of-namespace data search bug in Doomsday and triggered due to the fact there is both a Flat and a Patch with the same name. When attempting to composite the texture, Doomsday looks up the Patch by name and because patch lookup uses a similar algorithm to vanilla Heretic's (lump index precedence order) - finds a Flat instead of a Patch. Composition is then aborted for that patch and the resultant texture is empty (i.e., all texel colors = [r:0, g:0, b:0]).

I'll try to get around to addressing the issue in Doomsday sometime this week.

However as evidenced by the "tutti fruity" video above, these duplicate names are also an issue in vanilla Heretic and heretic+.

Last edited by DaniJ on 11-13-12 at 06:42

11-13-12 06:04 #

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A.Gamma
Junior Member

Posts: 146
Registered: 08-09

DaniJ said:

Actually, this is caused by an-out-of-namespace data search bug in Doomsday and triggered due to the fact there is both a Flat and a Patch with the same name. When attempting to composite the texture, Doomsday looks up the Patch by name and because patch lookup uses a similar algorithm to vanilla Heretic's (lump index precedence order) - finds a Flat instead of a Patch. Composition is then aborted for that patch and the resultant texture is empty (i.e., all texel colors = [r:0, g:0, b:0]).

I'll try to get around to addressing the issue in Doomsday sometime this week.

However as evidenced by the "tutti fruity" video above, these duplicate names are also an issue in vanilla Heretic and heretic+.

Oh wow, that was simpler than I thought, I will change the flat names then.

EDIT:

I updated the textures once again, now it works fine with Doomsday and should not give tutti fruity effect.

Mappers should update the texture pack ASAP, since I changed the conflicting flats names replacing them should be easier now than after you complete your maps.

HYMNTEX3.wad.

Last edited by A.Gamma on 11-13-12 at 10:05

11-13-12 06:38 #

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wesleyjohnson
Forum Regular

Posts: 677
Registered: 04-09

A flat and patch of the same name will be confused on the older Legacy too, even if markers were used in the wad. A bug fix somewhere in 1.44 DoomLegacy makes a name search look within the markers first, and then over all lump namespace.
Better just to not have any matching names.

11-14-12 02:26 #

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A.Gamma
Junior Member

Posts: 146
Registered: 08-09

Ok, I finally got to play EvilNed's map. It is not a bad map but there are several issues that need to be addressed.

First of all, the multiple HOMS on the map.

http://i.imgur.com/f4JZr.png
http://i.imgur.com/0bLvn.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ugrCu.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/vhDaQ.png

The one in the second shot is actually the worse of them all since it's actually a lowered sector without side textures, making it invisible until you fall into it and get trapped(unless you jump).

Second is texture alignment, there are several misaligned textures (most noticeable on lavafalls).

http://i.imgur.com/6E1MS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/pMy9q.png

Texture alignment of these kind should be easy with Doombuilder (but remember not abuse it).

Third one are the paper thin walls:

http://i.imgur.com/grZvC.png
http://i.imgur.com/HXieS.png
http://i.imgur.com/qxz6g.png
http://i.imgur.com/DSp6X.png

That looks REALLY bad, it is as if they were wallpapers and not solid materials with an actual mass and, not only it looks bad but it is a HUGE atmosphere breaker. Try thickening them so that the rocks on the first and fourth shots do not end on a pointy edge, and the wall on the second shot does not look like a cheap Hollywood prop.
The third one seems to be unintentional, since the sectors with the banner textures have f_sky1 as celing.

I think that's it for the aesthetics, now let's go into gameplay.

Gameplay wise the map is much better, and there are only a couple of things you should fix.

First is health; health is really scarce, most of the time I was bellow 60%, even AFTER a few playthroughs. I recommend adding some health flasks, or if you want the player to suffer a little more add health vials.

Second is enemy balancing. Considering that Eregore/Egregor/Igor/Whatever recommended a higher difficulty range this is not much of an issue, but aren't Iron Liches, Ophidiands, Weredragons and Sabre Claws a bit too much for E1M1? If you really think this should stay I recommend moving your map to a latter spot on the wad.

Third is the inescapable lava pit on the yellow key cave.
I know both, vanilla Doom and vanilla Heretic like to do this, but that doesn't mean it's less annoying. There are virtually zero players who can remember an inescapable pit fondly. Please add a teleporter or a staircase on there so that the punishment for falling is not so big.

And lastly is this:

http://i.imgur.com/b0F40.png

Oh how I hate that blinking room, it changes from barley visible to complete fucking darkness! Worst of all there are a bunch of skull throwing golems waiting in the dark so they can shoot at you with no means of seeing them until is too late. You should either, make the room brighter or add a torch nearby.

Ok that covers the gameplay and the aesthetics. Only thing left is the map itself.

Opening the map in Doombuilder and running a map analysis reveals lots lindefes overlapping and referencing different sectors. There are also a lot of unclosed sectors:

Sector 19
Sector 22
Sector 139
Sector 326
Sector 328
Sector 474
Sector 497

And finally there is this:

http://i.imgur.com/CBtcZ.png
http://i.imgur.com/5aifq.png

Is there a reason for the highlighted sectors to be... well, sectors instead of being empty space? This is not game breaking of course, it's just that I've never seen someone do something like this and I'm curious towards it :P

Ok, that was waaaaay too long.

To EvilNed01: You made a map that plays good and doesn't look bad in a short amount of time; and if you address the issues I mentioned, it will surley make an even better map.

Last edited by A.Gamma on 11-16-12 at 06:34

11-16-12 04:40 #

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EvilNed01
Junior Member

Posts: 129
Registered: 03-11

Thanks for the post and playthrough.

Re: A few things:

1. I know the "dark room" is dark, and I wanted a few opinions on it before changing it. I myself kinda like it, but maybe it is just annoying and nothing else. It will get lighter.

2. The inescapeable Lava Pit, yeah. I'll fix that.

3. As far as E1M1, it doesn't have to be on E1M1. I was just gonna submit the map, and if it got approved, I'd let whoever put the episode together put it where they thought it would fit. I agree, it is more of a late game map.

11-16-12 08:03 #

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Cacowad
Junior Member

Posts: 228
Registered: 07-12

even if it is my fist attempt to make a heretic map, i will give it a try. sign me into.

currently the map is a 3072x3072 room, most of the textures are placeholder.

screenies:

http://s7.postimage.org/786y6rq0b/S...1119_141234.png

http://s8.postimage.org/3xsgrnc1h/S...1119_141247.png

11-19-12 13:25 #

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walter confalonieri
Senior Member

Posts: 1453
Registered: 07-09

ehy, i like it!

11-19-12 15:10 #

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Boared
Warming Up

Posts: 25
Registered: 07-12

Here is a rough version of my map. Still needs some finetuning but I will do that later after some feedback.

Screenies:
http://i.imgur.com/TvqMg.png
http://i.imgur.com/yqUhk.png
http://i.imgur.com/qojsn.png
http://i.imgur.com/KVmie.png

Downloadlink:
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?8k1w7kjc7121w07

Cheers!

11-20-12 15:50 #

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Egregor
Junior Member

Posts: 118
Registered: 11-12

Awesome first HYMN level submission, Boared! I played it through a couple times. Its a good map. Way to set the bar high for this project. I like how you took the theme of non-linear level design to the next level (no pun intended) with multiple routes that tie in at the end. If your looking for constructive feedback I can critique your level the next time I have a chance. Thanks for the submission!

11-20-12 20:59 #

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Cacowad
Junior Member

Posts: 228
Registered: 07-12

50% of the map completed. time to put a couple of screenshots!

the spawn area is nearly completed, also you can see it from the above from another chamber.

http://s16.postimage.org/m8d1cc8wx/Screenshot_Heretic_20121122_230328.jpg

http://s8.postimage.org/c5gdfdgqp/Screenshot_Heretic_20121122_232034.jpg

it will be an house style map, inspired by some ancient houses i have seen in the past years, it will have also an underground section (in progress)and several outdoor areas. lights are not placed yet.

http://s14.postimage.org/e814nljal/Screenshot_Heretic_20121122_230820.jpg

11-22-12 22:21 #

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walter confalonieri
Senior Member

Posts: 1453
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http://i.imgur.com/g5n6V.png
http://i.imgur.com/ZWuvS.png

some textures appearing glitched using vanilla heretic (altought is not based upon that port) and playing the beautiful boared. Yes, it works even in vanilla heretic LOL...

11-22-12 23:11 #

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Boared
Warming Up

Posts: 25
Registered: 07-12

@ Egregor: I would like some critique cause then I can fine-tune the level

@ cacowad: Looks nice but (there is always a but ;) ) in the last shot you should allign the textures properly

@ Walter confalonieri: I was afraid of that because vanilla heretic can't cope with textures which are not 128 pixels high. The textures in the shot are 64x64.

11-23-12 07:17 #

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Cacowad
Junior Member

Posts: 228
Registered: 07-12

boared: yep, there is a lot of things to do...

anyway, on the first run i was a little careless about ammo and when i fell into the undergrond section i got outnumbered (really don't know how i managed to go there first anyway). on the second run, i found first the chamber where you manage to obtain the yellow key, and then full of ammo i managed to get down the two ironheads (btw that place look a bit weird, lava on direct contact with ice?). testing it in HMP just work fine, i didn't found any visible flaws.

also i didn't remembered the wind spell being so annoying.

11-23-12 13:13 #

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Boared
Warming Up

Posts: 25
Registered: 07-12

@cacowad: I didn't aim for realistic, I tried an artistic aproach. I kinda think it looks cool and original without being ugly (At least that's what I aimed for ;) )
Btw difficulty is not implented yet (forgot to mention that). As I said it's a rough version which needs some playtesting. Hopefully more people will finish their wads and I can playtest them :)

Cheers!

11-23-12 13:31 #

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Egregor
Junior Member

Posts: 118
Registered: 11-12

Boared:

structural: from what i can tell its structurally sound, well done. if you wanted to make the level slightly longer you could move the yellow key door to replace the red Celtic wall cross. in that new area add a switch that opens the current yellow key door.

gameplay: i had a hard time with your level, and could not finish it without cheats. it was *slightly* too hard, even when i knew what i should be doing. the action was great. don't take away enemies. i suggest you add a few health vials and a few wand and claw ammo items.

decor: this level already looks nice. with that said, i personally would like to see:
-more ceiling height variation in the main courtyard, make the buildings taller than the cliffs.
-less boxy natural cliffs. examples: swamp at the north end of the main courtyard, eastern blue key lava cave, eastern cliff of the main courtyard moat.
-more ceiling trim: the yellow key tower looks good. trim like that on more exterior buildings.
-note to self: we need to add white sheet ice wall texture to the HYMN texture set so we can have white 'pond ice'

good work!

Last edited by Egregor on 11-25-12 at 19:39

11-25-12 10:01 #

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Egregor
Junior Member

Posts: 118
Registered: 11-12

Screenshots of my level:

http://i1161.photobucket.com/albums...g1/E3_2/A-1.png

http://i1161.photobucket.com/albums...g1/E3_2/B-1.png

http://i1161.photobucket.com/albums...g1/E3_2/C-1.png

http://i1161.photobucket.com/albums...ing1/E3_2/D.png

http://i1161.photobucket.com/albums...ing1/E3_2/E.png

11-27-12 20:23 #

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Cacowad
Junior Member

Posts: 228
Registered: 07-12

egregor: actually these screenshots reminds me a lot of the heretic style maps, i like it :D

11-27-12 20:52 #

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Springy
Member

Posts: 562
Registered: 09-12

Great to see another Heretic project coming along looking great so far. If I get my motivation back I may contribute a map at some point but that is a big may.

11-27-12 21:19 #

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Cacowad
Junior Member

Posts: 228
Registered: 07-12

YES! now is more or less done, i have tested extensively only the UV equivalent (yes i haven't still learned the names of the skills levels...) but also the others ones are supported, no co-op starts at the moments.

i'll call it "Domus", also it will be quite tricky, a few hints:

1)extreme catwalk may help.
2)unless you dont want to do 100% kills, don't be greedy, obvious traps are obvious.

here comes the link:

http://www.mediafire.com/?nlhi92wf801la3p

it may contain a couple of misused textures or a couple of misalegned ones, if you find some please report it.

EDIT: fixed version, now even lesser skill levels may work, fixed a couple of misaligned textures and the various game-breaking "leap of faith". now it should work.

Last edited by Cacowad on 11-28-12 at 09:11

11-28-12 00:06 #

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Doomworld Forums > Classic Doom > WADs & Mods > HYMN: A Heretic Community Project!

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