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LittleTemple
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Greetings, fellow DOOMers!

My friends and I are rather new to the DOOM experience. Two years ago I got a used Playstation that came with DOOM and Final DOOM. This was my first step into the world of DOOM and it was truly frightening at night, alone in a dark small bedroom with a tiny TV sitting on the floor.

Fastforward a year and say hello to my first computer game DOOM adventures when I found an old boxed copy of all the classic DOOM games. My friends and I had fun dialing up through DOOM 95 and playing "old school" and still do.

However, we began looking around the web, downloading custom levels and thinking "Wow, we want to do this!"

Thus, Projekt Xero was born. We learned how to programme doors, make lifts, and out door areas, after that, we jumped straight into our first WAD.

The plans? Well, it's still in early stages and we are open to ANY help, criticism, anything to make the WAD the best it can be!

Features

All new 32 levels for DOOM II including secret levels and an all new story (when it's done)
A seperate Death match only wad file with 10 or more levels based upon single player levels.

Coop compatibility in the single player missions

All new soundtrack composed by Abiageal O'Meara

NOTE

We realize of course that large wad files are a pain for some and much to our music composers dismay, we will be releasing a stripped down version without the new music for every level. 38 tracks in 128 MP3 could prove to be quite the large file size. Abiageal O'Meara is currently looking into MIDI versions of the songs but non of us are sure where that'll go.


We have finished one level and have recently began redoing aspects of textures and things from a strict Zdoom format to be compatible with Odamex. We hope to work closely with them, as well as DOOM players everywhere!

We aren't too good at taking screenshots to show off levels and the main mapper for MAP01 is still making tweaks (mostly for Odamex) but before we continue too far into the project, we would love some feedback. Things we're doing wrong, things that shouldn't be changed, and so on.

We plan on becoming a member of this community but, in case you want to reach us directly, you can contact us at the following address

littletemplegroup@aol.com

Comments and things related directly to Abiageal O'Meara's soundtrack can either be posted here or can be sent to this address

abbey0237@gmail.com

The current demo is around 5MB and is completely compatible with the latest version of Zdoom, though feel free to test other engines. Be aware, they need some sort of hexen support to function probably.

Download link - http://www.freefilehosting.net/projektxerodemo1

Many thanks in advance for the feedback and the welcoming to your community!

Blessings,

Kamila Zielinski, Elizavetta Zielinski, Marus Dudek and Valentine Zajac

Old Post 11-22-12 20:01 #
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Phml
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Slade 3 crashes when I try to open this wad, first time I've ever seen it doing that.

The map feels very amateurish as is. Impassable lines (I'm guessing the intent was to give the illusion of windows?), grate midtextures that can be walked through, tech door textures plastered over large areas...

I don't mean to discourage you, in fact you did the right thing making this public this early in development - so many people go straight for a full megawad without any outside input, and the results are disappointing, both for them (negative reception) and for the others (actual quality).

Not to claim I'm anywhere near an expert myself, but I believe you have a lot to learn when it comes to mapping. Just in case you haven't checked these out yet, I'd suggest you try to play through the Scythe series, Alien Vendetta, Knee-Deep in ZDoom, Ultimate Torment and Torture, Stronghold, Speed of Doom, Sunder, Vanguard. People would argue vehemently for or against the merits of most of these wads, but I feel this is a good and varied mapping showcase with ideas worth studying (whether it is to apply them to your own work or to reject them).

Good luck with your project, you seem to have the right attitude to get somewhere.

Old Post 11-22-12 20:29 #
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LittleTemple
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Many thanks for the feedback!

Do you have any suggestions for improvement? Perhaps different textures maybe? We're open to all sorts of ideas!

Alien Vendetta is indeed an excellent mega-wad!

The grate textures weren't originally passable (That was Valentines idea =P) save for the one where the first secret was (originally you had to couch, Zdoom) but Odamex has no crouch function, sadly.

Impassible lines of course were to keep people from stepping off the dam, as there is no reason to go out there (Goldeneye 007) and it's simply there for the feeling of immersion.

As for the door textures, are you referring to the lift plates for the large gates? Or the ones at the back of you when you first start the map?

I don't want to give anything away but, the large UAC door texture is in fact a door (it's secret, you have to figure out how to open it, hint, theres blood somewhere)

Would you perhaps recommend a different texture?

As for the map feeling amateurish as is, does that have to do with the design? We're open to all sorts of criticism I am just trying to understand you better =)

We will certainly look into the wads you've posted!

On another note, I'm sure Abiageal wouldn't mind feedback on her soundtrack. If you'd like to say anything about that! =)

Blessings,

Kamila Zielinski, Elizavetta Zielinski, Marus Dudek and Valentine Zajac

Old Post 11-22-12 20:39 #
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Phml
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I know I haven't been very specific in my feedback. This is because, if I were to give you honest, genuine advice on the map itself, it would be "nuke it from orbit and start from scratch".

It might sound rude, but to try to put it in perspective, in its current aspect you could recreate this map entirely within half a hour once you got used to the tools; and it's likely you could do a much better job at it too, once you had that experience. So I feel at this point one of the best thing you could do is map, map, map, just to get comfortable and familiar with mapping, and experience other wads, by playing them and by taking a look at them in the editor to understand how it all fits.

Another reason it's hard to get into specifics is that on a personal level I tend to have different opinions on level design than many (especially in the ZDoom community), so I wouldn't want to give you advice that might not necessarily fit your project.

Sticking to the strictly technical stuff is possible, though, so to try to clarify some previous comments:

- the passable grate texture isn't a terribly big deal. I guess I just mentioned it because it added to the general inconclusive feel I got from the map.

- the impassable lines I was thinking of were linedefs 686 and 704 (and corresponding linedefs in other similar structures). It's blocking access to a small wall that is merely 16 pixels higher, you can go from either side but you can't climb on it. It feels weird, as if you wanted to have a window there.

- as for the door textures, it was linedef 809 I had in mind. It stretches all the way to the ceiling and even cuts off midway, making it essentially look like 2 doors and a half on top of each other. Some door textures can get away being used like that, but here it looks fairly jarring.

For more general advice that hopefully isn't too subjective or specific, your sectors look very flat. You've got this outdoor area, and both the sky and the walls are at the same height, consistently. This makes it fairly repetitive and dull to look at, really brings to mind it is a video game level with textures and such. Varying the height of the walls, as well as the sky itself, i.e. with perimeter walls (you can see examples of this in the IWADs) can go a long way towards making your map a convincing environment.

Running the map analysis tool, I've noticed there are several unclosed sectors in your map. This may or may not cause issues - I think ZDoom automatically fixes such errors by rebuilding nodes or somesuch, but it doesn't hurt to fix these yourself. It's often as simple as using the "Make Sector" mode on the offending sectors. Generally speaking, it's a good idea to run the map analysis tool every now and then, provided you're using Doom Builder 2 (and if you're not, give it a go; it's a great map editor, and every mapper should at least try it once).

By opening the wad in Doom Builder 2, I've noticed there are 2 MAP01 entries and one DSPDIETH entry that seems to be an old Map01 draft. Perhaps the 2 MAP01 entries might be why Slade 3 bombs.

I also noticed you're using the ZDoom (Hexen) format. Again, not an expert here, but I believe it's better to use ZDoom (Doom in Hexen) format for a Doom wad. AFAIK you'll retain all the hexen features and you will also be able to use the doom actors directly.

For that matter, unless I'm mistaken, ZDoom (Doom in UDMF) format is a superior format to either choice, letting you do everything those other formats do and more, with much greater flexibility.

Oh! Sorry I forgot to answer about the soundtrack, and a shame too as this was the one thing I could and should have been positive about, heh. It sounded good, looming and ominous. It didn't quite fit the map in my opinion, but that seems like a map issue more than a music one.

Last edited by Phml on 11-22-12 at 21:58

Old Post 11-22-12 21:47 #
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LittleTemple
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Thank you so much!

I've talked to Elizavetta (the original map designer of level 1) and she took the criticism quite well (I'm Marcus, by the way) =)

We've already taken your advice and started completely FROM scratch! I gave the draft of the original map to Kamila (she crumpled it and threw it in the corner) and said get me a pen and paper.

So, haha, we'll see what happens! She's currently working on a replacement for the level.

I'm not sure when it'll be done but, we'll be sure to let you know!

Thank you SO much again!

Blessings,

Kamila Zielinski, Elizavetta Zielinski, Marus Dudek and Valentine Zajac

Old Post 11-22-12 22:06 #
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LittleTemple
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Kamila took MAP 01 under her wing yesterday and spent over two hours on the blueprints alone. She than locked herself in her room with the map editor.


It is a completely different map, much to Elizavetta's dismay but, we hope it's a good thing!

Odamex support still needs work, there are a few improper textures and teletporters don't work correctly.
However, ZDoom support is of course perfect.

So, if Phml and any others would like to give the new map a test, here is the download link:

http://www.freefilehosting.net/projektxerodemo1

(the one at the top of the thread should work, as well)


Blessings,

Kamila Zielinski, Elizavetta Zielinski, Marus Dudek and Valentine Zajac

Old Post 11-24-12 02:02 #
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LittleTemple
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MAP02 has been finished and can be downloaded along with a slightly update MAP01 through the link here: http://www.freefilehosting.net/projektxerodemo1

Someone over at Odamex suggested keeping the music files in a separate wadfile and that's just what we've done.

Music for the wad can be downloaded and played along side the demo. link : http://www.freefilehosting.net/projektxerodemomusic1

Feedback is appreciated!

Thank you in advance!

Blessings,

Little Temple Group

Old Post 11-30-12 02:24 #
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Mr. Chris
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You definitely are taking criticism a lot better than a certain other author who went batshit because of an overly critical review.

Old Post 11-30-12 03:06 #
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Pottus
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This has to be one of the most interesting development teams I've seen, three girls and a dude I don't think that has ever happened before.

Old Post 11-30-12 03:29 #
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LittleTemple
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@ Mr. Chris

I had trouble reading that thread and, I wanted to download the WAD to see how bad it truly was HOWEVER, the links are broken.

I suppose taking critism all depends on how you look at it. We enjoy criticism, good and bad equally because it helps us learn. It might sting, sure, but, you can't learn without making mistakes! Right?

@ Pottus

Actually, it's 2 females and 2 males (well, three females if you count Abiageal O'Meara, our music composer) "Valentine is a guy, and yes, we tease him"

I was rather surprised though, to know that this doesn't happen much!


Many thanks for the replies!


EDIT: We may have found a missing texture or two in MAP02.


Blessings,

Little Temple Group

Old Post 11-30-12 03:34 #
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Obsidian
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I actually dig this quite a bit. :) 3 things I'd like to point out:

1. The doors move a bit slow. Just bump the speed up and you'll be fine.

2. The doortracks aren't unpegged. Usually when doortracks are concerned you set the linedef to "Lower unpegged" so it doesn't slide up the wall when the door opens. There are a few odd people who prefer to leave doortracks as they are, but most people use lower unpegged ones.

3. The level designs are pretty sound, but a bit of decoration here and there will go a long way. The idea is to get a good balance of decoration: not too sparse, not too cluttered. You can lean towards the two extremes(compare Scythe to Whispers of Satan and you'll get an idea), but it's a good idea not to go overboard.

Hopefully I've helped. Good luck with your project. :D

Old Post 11-30-12 03:36 #
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LittleTemple
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You certainly have!

As for the door tracks, thank you SO much!

Kamila has been going on and ON AND ON about those for a WEEK.

"Why do these effing things keep moving with the door?!"

So, thank you! Haha. Mystery solved!

We originally had the door speeds at 10 (MAP01 and some of MAP02) but started going 15 (apparently kamila forgot the original number)

Would 20 or 25 be ideal?

As for decoration, we've been actually looking at that mostly through map02. Kamila is always worried too much is a bad thing so I'll be sure to let her know we probably don't have enough. Admittedly, she's having a tough time deciding where decorations should be in MAP02 as there are some really bright areas and a few dark areas (blue key area)

Any help there I'm sure she wouldn't mind!

Thank you again!

Blessing,

Little Temple Group

Old Post 11-30-12 03:41 #
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Obsidian
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25-30 is usually a good speed. :-)

As for decoration, it's basically up to you. You have to go with what feels right, although looking at other people's work goes a long way towards stoking creativity.

One more thing: I take it you guys are mapping in ZDoom? Look at some of the tutorials by ChubzDoomer and JaundiceJaun on Youtube. You'll learn heaps from them. =D

Old Post 11-30-12 03:52 #
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LittleTemple
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25-30 it is!

Thanks, we'll certainly take a look!

I just spoke to Kamila and she said that instead of starting direct work on MAP03 (Elizavetta will be helping this time, as she's recovered from the disaster that was her version of MAP01) we will go back, and added decorations here and there in both maps when we fix the door speeds.

I'll be sure to link Kamila and Valentine to the youtube videos as he will be mostly helping Kamila map the deathmatch portion of the WAD in the hopefully not too distant future.


Blessings,

Little Temple Group

EDIT: If you've been downloading the music WAD as well, Abiageal O'Meara is bugging us to bug people on her soundtrack. She's a bit of a perfectionist and doesn't have much experience in DOOM. Apparently the fact that we like it just isn't enough! =P

Old Post 11-30-12 03:59 #
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KiiiYiiiKiiiA
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Hi LittleTempleGroup.

Played through the first map of the project, and it has lots of potential! Interesting design and layout, good sense of space.

I do feel that there is no reason to be using ZDoom(Doom in Hexen) seeing as everything here seems to be standard Doom triggers. If you make the map 'limit removing' it will open up a wider audience for your maps because limit removing will run on the majority of modern ports.

See here for an explanation on 'limit removing'. Essentially it means that you are only using Doom compatible switches, actions and monsters, but extending 'set' limits of the original Doom engine: Number of visible linedefs on screen at once, etc etc.

Just a few little detail things that may help:

When making windows, be sure to use upper-unpegged and lower-unpegged on any linedef that is above or below a window.

for example:

Without upper and lower unpegged:
http://i.imgur.com/uazAT.png

With upper and lower unpegged:
http://i.imgur.com/P0wFv.png

Doors opening into the sky always looks a little strange, try and avoid doing this:
http://i.imgur.com/xrgqV.png

And lastly, I would replace this texture (STONE5):
http://i.imgur.com/PRDmO.png with STONE4. And also align it.

In regards to the doors, use whatever speed that makes the door stop moving when the door sound ends, so they are synchronised.




Phml said:
So I feel at this point one of the best thing you could do is map, map, map, just to get comfortable and familiar with mapping, and experience other wads, by playing them and by taking a look at them in the editor to understand how it all fits.



Without doubt this is really good advice. Take this advice. :)

Good luck with your project.

Old Post 11-30-12 04:22 #
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LittleTemple
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Wow!

I had no idea upper/lower unpegged could do so much! I assumed it was for see-thru textures only, haha!

THIS would fix a lot of work in trying to align textures (and sometimes it's never even possible)

As for the door, yeah, I keep asking Kamila to have a look at it because it does look well, creepy. Hopefully now that someone else noticed it she'll take it a little more seriously!

As for the reason we're using hexen, there is really only ONE real reason I can think of.

We have 5 secret levels in the project none of which are accessible from map 15 (like original DOOM II)

is there a way to have certain levels have a secret exit at completely random with any other format? Because if so, we'd gladly dump Hexen. It's a bit of a pain to be honest.

EDIT:

Also, thanks for the texture on the bridge tip! We didn't even notice how odd that looked!


Blessings,

Little Temple Group

Old Post 11-30-12 04:37 #
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Pottus
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Ya lower/upper unpegged is the holy grail of texture alignment, just avoid using lower-unpegged on single sided linedefs of course Door tracks are ok but it can really mess up your alignment if it's over done. Another couple of things to remember as well textures should be considered as materials and what that means is they are not just two dimensional but also have depth! Avoid cutting off textures un-naturally like the last screen shot KiiiYiiiKiiiA has in his post it should be slide up, all you need to do is slide it up into position then press SHIFT-A for Y alignment or A for X alignment.

Last edited by Pottus on 11-30-12 at 06:44

Old Post 11-30-12 06:39 #
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Ribbiks
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this thread makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

Last edited by Ribbiks on 12-01-12 at 15:16

Old Post 11-30-12 06:54 #
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Pottus
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They're obviously not 13 year olds.

Old Post 11-30-12 07:14 #
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tempun
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LittleTemple said:
As for the reason we're using hexen, there is really only ONE real reason I can think of.

We have 5 secret levels in the project none of which are accessible from map 15 (like original DOOM II)

is there a way to have certain levels have a secret exit at completely random with any other format?

In Zdoom, you can define where normal and secret exit lead on a per-map basis, independent of format (see MAPINFO).
You can always convert to Hexen format from Doom format.

Old Post 11-30-12 19:51 #
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LittleTemple
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Thanks!

Here our are ages if it matters =P

Marcus - DOB - 11-03-85 - 27
Kamila - DOB - 2-17-88 - 24
Elizavetta - DOB - 5-10-93 - 19
Valentine - DOB - 2-02-84 - 28
Abiageal O'Meara - DOB - 6-09-97 - 15


Does ZDoom in DOOM format use map info and secret exit anywhere lines?

I've talked with Valentine and the reason we decided to use Zdoom is for slopes (Elizavetta came up with neat slope designs for MAP03 and forward) and the hexen format is purly for the (teleport to map number) function and we had originally planned hubs.

Kamila took the project design away from Elizavetta's more (should I say boring?) real life mirrored idea to a more sort of real but more doom-like design so things are a little different.

An example is, we were originally going to wait to introduce demons (non zombie men) at map06 strictly for the story (as reflected slightly in the README! =) which we haven't updated since november 20th) but, Kamila's mapping style and her ideas suggested it was way too slow and there was no reason not to have imps on the first level.

So, coupled with the teleport to command and the other things easily implemented, map info, which levels can make you pistol start, are reasons we are using Zdoom to an extent. Also the fact that it would be almost impossible to do Abiageal O'Meara's soundtrack justice in MIDI.

On another note, .ogg works on odamex but refuses to play on ZDOOM so we've stuck to a 92kbps MP3.

Anyone able to shed some light on this?

Anyway, this post is a little jumbled, been up late. I just wanted to clerify that I spoke to soon about one reason we were using Zdoom. As it turns out, there are a handful of reasons that pretty much define the project going forward.

In other news, a vanilla compatible DOOM project is in the near future and Abiageal O'Meara said she would be happy to contribute 20 or so tracks provided she can find midi recording synths that would please her style.


We'd like to thank everyone for the feedback thus far. Kamila is currently working with Elizavetta on the blueprints for MAP03 (UAC Research Lab Main Hall) and later today will will go back and make the needed changes to MAP01 and 02 respectively.

If anyone is curious about the soundtrack to MAP03, it is already in place in the PRXMUS wad and a link to download it below!


http://www.freefilehosting.net/1-08...hlabmainhallmp3

Blessings,

Little Temple Group

Old Post 11-30-12 21:45 #
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Katamori
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My short opinion: this is quite OK. For a first wad, this is ver good! The only mistake I can see is the strange architecture but on the other hand, this is unique. =)

I wish you luck to finish all the maps, because it might be cool. =)

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Old Post 11-30-12 22:00 #
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Pottus
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Strange architecture is good big K =) otherwise all maps would look the same I think that is one of the best asset new mappers have they're not so much set in their ways compared to people who have been mapping for years.

Old Post 11-30-12 22:15 #
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Katamori
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Hehe, that's true. =)

Old Post 11-30-12 23:54 #
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LittleTemple
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Just a small update to once again say thanks for all the replies and to the people playing and giving us feedback on the levels.


We've fixed the door speeds by setting them to 20 a crossed the board. 25 seemed to be a bit fast as the animation was done probably only a few milliseconds before the sound but, 20 seems to be perfect.

Kamila built a cliff around the entire area before the bars out onto the dam in MAP01 to stop the door from going into the sky (io, building is taller than the walls outside of it, haha)

Added some small decorations to MAP02 but, we aren't quite sure if we've finished with it yet. We also moved some of the health around. If anyone is finding the maps too easy to complete please do let us know.

We decided we probably wont add any updates to the demo zip until after map03 is finished and ready for play.


Blessings,

Little Temple Group

Old Post 12-01-12 09:03 #
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tempun
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Katamori said:
Hehe, that's true. =)
Level 2 reminds me of TNT, esp. TNT level 14.

Old Post 12-01-12 12:03 #
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LittleTemple
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tempun said:
Level 2 reminds me of TNT, esp. TNT level 14.


It's funny you say that because Kamila said the design was inspired by her recent play through of Final DOOM (specifically maps 08 and 14)

Just another small update, Kamila and Elizavetta are currently working on the first few areas of MAP03 - UAC Research Lab Main Hall =)



Blessings,

Little Temple Group

Old Post 12-01-12 21:43 #
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VylePhinder
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This is the kind of attitude both the new mappers (which is still a step above myself) and the Doom community need. With mappers understanding that you're not going to waltz into your first ideas and be God's gift to the Doom community, and the community understanding that new mappers need to be encouraged and that if they don't take every project seriously (even if it is well under par, and not saying that this is or anything, but you get my point...) they would never have the motivation to continue mapping, and thus never complete or learn anything. More mappers means more "eventually" legendary mappers in the future. This game, this community, and this site are all a testament to why I believe that I will have the privelage of playing Doom for many many years to come.

-Vyle Phinder (played doom wads of all kinds for almost as old as Doom is).

Also, not trying to just be nice or anything, but for a first project, this looks quite good.

Last edited by VylePhinder on 12-02-12 at 03:57

Old Post 12-02-12 03:48 #
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LittleTemple
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Many thanks! =)

Abiageal O'Meara is supposed to upload a little joke trailer we made for the project soon. I'll be sure to edit this post with the link. You guys might get a kick out of it! Haha

Old Post 12-03-12 01:39 #
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LittleTemple
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Posts: 120
Registered: 11-12


Here is the trailer we made. It isn't meant to be taken seriously but we had fun. Kamila played through the game and than edited the video recording with Elizavetta and Valentine while I was at work.

Hope it gives you a few laughs =)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1psds1vJP9s&feature=plcp

Old Post 12-03-12 11:29 #
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