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scifista42
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The secret area: Actually it can be accessed via precise SR40 too, confirmed in Chocolate Doom.

Old Post 05-05-14 17:41 #
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Eris Falling
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Well, crouching and jumping are large exploits. You can skip about half of my map by jumping, for example. In fact, pretty much the entire time between starting MAP22 and uploading the first version here, the exit teleporter was in the same area as the start, blocked off by some stumps, which you could just jump over. They have to be disabled, and its common practice in non ZDoom WADs now. Mouselook is pretty harmless.
I didn't even know there was a keyword to disable it.

Old Post 05-05-14 17:42 #
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Da Werecat
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My idea was much simpler. Yet another nod at replacing the contents of an existing book, except this time it's so minimalistic that it doesn't work quite as well as I was hoping.

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae293/da_werecat/Doom/intername1.png

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae293/da_werecat/Doom/intername1d.png

Lazy, lazy.

Old Post 05-05-14 17:59 #
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EffinghamHuffnagel
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I don't know. When I see things in a plain brown wrapper, I keep thinking they should be in the i_am_old_enough_to_look_at_this directory.

Old Post 05-05-14 19:34 #
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mouldy
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Da Werecat said:
My idea was much simpler. Yet another nod at replacing the contents of an existing book, except this time it's so minimalistic that it doesn't work quite as well as I was hoping.



That gave me an idea for something using your previous artwork
https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/9629/m5l7thmk41a5wv44g.jpg

Old Post 05-05-14 19:59 #
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scifista42
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Single paper sheets are far more boring than books, in my opinion. I'd like to see that previous book picture as an INTERPIC, wouldn't mind to encounter it between every level.

Old Post 05-05-14 20:15 #
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Antroid
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I think it would be cool to have the original book-in-a-book for titlepic, and for interpic to have a page spread of that smaller red book. Or just a page. Only it has to be clear that it's that same book.

Alternatively, just full color for titlepic and greyscale for interpic? I mean, it fits both. And IMO if it only becomes one of those, the other has to be a similar style AND concept.

Old Post 05-05-14 20:37 #
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Da Werecat
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Well, at least I found some use for a staple gun.

Old Post 05-05-14 20:41 #
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Eris Falling
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Personally, I think the "book-in-book" should be the TITLEPIC. As far as INTERPICs are concerned, I'm all for either of Antroid's ideas.

Old Post 05-05-14 20:54 #
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Da Werecat
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I think INTERPIC should be simple, unless it's an episode map.

Old Post 05-05-14 20:58 #
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Antroid
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So howsabout just the top (or bottom!) half of a page that is clearly indicated to be belonging to the small red book from the titlepic? As in, you can see the cover along two of the four borders of the picture. Sounds simple enough and, unless I'm confused about something again, seems to make perfect sense within the whole metaphor.

Old Post 05-05-14 21:06 #
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scifista42
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Da Werecat said:
I think INTERPIC should be simple
Maybe, but it should preferably be interesting and original as well, better than a TITLEPIC ripoff if we can afford it. I won't be talking into that anymore, though. I won't work on the graphics personally, after all.

Old Post 05-05-14 21:20 #
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mouldy
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If we are keeping the book theme why not just have a page from a musty old tome with some faint arcane symbols scrawled all over it?

Old Post 05-05-14 23:26 #
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cannonball
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EffinghamHuffnagel said:

------
MAP21
------
What a delight to have this appropriately named map after the vastness and volume of MAP19 and the constant tension and threat of massive nearby death of MAP20 (which is beautifully designed and balanced BTW; at the start I was screaming "WTF!" and running for someplace to hide. At the end, all I had left was three beat-up Cybers to deal with). Even if you have to start over, this map is a great tension-breaker. Well, to start with. I didn't expect to punch Demons to conserve ammo at this point in the game. And "I want my... I want my... I want my... SSG". I hope there's one near the start of MAP22. And great, really appropriate-feeling music.

---
Not an error, but an inconsistency. The Blue Key door as tagged D1 StayOpen on one side and the Red Key door is tagged DR Open/Close on both sides. I understand the red door because of the AV. Author's prerogative on the blue door, I guess.

---
One monster short. The Pain Elemental never teleported in. I'm thinking it needs more than 56 units of height to cross the teleport line that drops to 8 above the floor in his closet.



Strange bug, I never got that to happen throughout testing, but it's an easy fix. I also played around with the gameplay a little bit, the final trap is rather harsh if you haven't found the secrets so placed an ssg by the yellow key.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/r...k/cbnirvana.wad

Old Post 05-06-14 19:12 #
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EffinghamHuffnagel
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------
MAP23
------
Things plums didn't talk about :

Two Demons and a Hell Knight couldn't teleport in from one closet. The distance from the teleport linedef tag 48 to the wall is 32 units. The length of the Monster is 64 units. I think the Demons need more room after the teleport linedef to fully cross it. I'd say the wall needs to be moved.

---
Two Cyberdemons couldn't teleport in from another closet. Linedef tag 2 is a switch tagged to LowerFloorToLowestAdjacentFloor. It lowers four sectors. One is an off-map sector which has teleport linedef tag 2 for the Cyberdemons to use. I think I know which sector they should teleport to (sector 53, it has either a Cyber or AV in it), but none of the four sectors has a teleport spot. And why is the floor around sector 53 (sector 243) tagged as type 11 - damage until health below 11%, then end level? The player can never get there.

---
There is a Chaingunner stuck by a barrel. Directly north of the aforementioned switch (linedef tag 2), are two Chaingunners with a barrel between them. If you shoot the barrel it kills the Chaingunners and the barrels domino explode down a hall, killing another Chaingunner. The exact same thing is set up directly opposite, to the south, but the barrels are not aligned properly. They only explode part-way down the hall, never getting to the far Chaingunner (thing 1390). You can see them and kill them from the switch without exploding the barrels, but both of these far Chaingunners are blocked by barrels and can't move or shoot, so I didn't even realize they were there until the end when I was looking for monsters I hadn't killed. I don't know why they're there. They might as well be Keens.

before barrels go boom
http://i.imgur.com/5HZ3917.png

after barrels go boom
http://i.imgur.com/buWJDHE.png

The square sector to the right in the pictures is sector 53, which I think is where the teleport spot for the off-map Cyberdemons is supposed to go.

---
MAP22 was cohesive. Everything about it said 'Catacombs'. A good solid level. Enjoyable. I guess that's my problem with MAP23. I don't know why things are where they are or why they're the way they are. There's a general lack of cohesiveness and lack of intuitiveness. Examples: 1) Going into a room scores a secret. There's ammo, healing and a switch on the wall which starts the Spiderboss crusher (and plums was right; two or three of those crusher columns are not closed. You can't click on them properly in an editor). There's a torch in the middle of the room on an island for light. Why would you even think that the torch in the middle of a room is actually an S1 switch? There's nothing to differentiate it from the other 15 Tall Red Torches in the level, except this one is in the middle of the room. It's not even flickering. Maybe if it were blinking or pulsating. 2) In the red key room there are hidden closets with barrels in them. Why? No idea. You blow them up. Why? To get them out of the way. Because at the end of one of the closets is a GR switch which opens a door in the room with energy cells. A hidden GR switch. It's the same texture as the other closet walls. And the barrels don't activate the switch. You still have to shoot it to get the energy cells. Which are not a secret (the same thing happens near the beginning with a barred Soul Sphere. You still have to shoot the eye switch). And I'm not saying that all hidden things have to be secrets, but...

Okay. I've tried not to comment on level design. I see my function as finding typos and grammatical errors in a novel rather than discussing plot or character development except when the storyline doesn't seem logical or consistent with the rest of the novel. The hidden closets of barrels - they didn't have to be barrels. They could have been Lost Souls. No difference. The stuck Chaingunners I mentioned - if they had not been stuck and actually firing at me, killing them with a hidden string of barrels is cool. I honestly expected in a level called 'Barrels O' Fun' that I would see barrels used in ways I hadn't seen before. I thought I might be running on top of a line of barrels as they were exploding behind me to get to a secret. Not blowing up barrels that were holding a door open until I got through the door. Getting through a barrel maze without blowing it up. Stacks of barrels. A pyramid of barrels! I guess I'm saying that this seems to be a level WITH barrels and not ABOUT barrels. Except the actual exit. That was fun. The rest of it was... okay. The areas that were homages to the original Doom2 version of 'Barrels' and E1M8 were interesting. The map doesn't have to be 'all barrels all the time'. The original Doom2 version wasn't. There were barrels at the beginning and again at the end. The middle had no barrels at all. But when they were there, they were used strategically as weapons to cause more damage than a single shot could.

Okay, onwards.

Old Post 05-06-14 22:34 #
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mouldy
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EffinghamHuffnagel said:
------
MAP23
------
I don't know why things are where they are or why they're the way they are. There's a general lack of cohesiveness and lack of intuitiveness.



This seems to be a general theme with joseph's maps. Interested to see how you get on with map27..

Old Post 05-06-14 23:36 #
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plums
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EffinghamHuffnagel said:
Things plums didn't talk about


I knew there was a lot that I missed, a lot of it was due to the fact that I wasn't sure what was from vanilla saving bugs and what was a mapping error. The whole thing is really just a big mess -- as you said a lot of it seems to lack cohesiveness, it seems like just a random assortment of rooms loaded up with barrels to fit the map name -- and to be honest after finishing it I wasn't too inclined to go back.

Anyhow, good job on working all those mapping errors out. I too am curious how you'll feel about 27. It's funny/frustrating in that map 16 is pretty good on the whole, and Joseph Lord seems far from a talentless mapper, but most of his contributions here really lack direction and stick out next to the other polished maps. Another similarity to NOVA I guess...

Old Post 05-07-14 01:02 #
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Eris Falling
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I think 16 was the last thing he worked on, so he definitely improved over the course of this project.

Old Post 05-07-14 16:12 #
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Xaser
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Just stopping by really quick to post a MAP31 update that addresses the non-spawning souls and killcounting invisikeens that Effingham reported:
http://static.angryscience.net/doom/xa-wolfy-v4.zip

Nothing more profound than that; just figure it's worth keeping up to date while I'm thinking of it.

Old Post 05-07-14 19:00 #
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EffinghamHuffnagel
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------
MAP24
------
I LOVE this level. Yes, it's very brown. I don't care. There's enough green things so it's not dull. I've always been a sucker for that Meso-American/Anasazi cliff-dwelling/Lara Croft/Indiana Jones/hidden civilization type of map. Way cool. And the height drop! To go from a floor height of 1168 to -736. You don't see much of that in Doom. I did find it funny that after a Cyber and AVs and everything else, that the last guardian of the exit is one Chaingun Bob. You kill him, come around the corner and... Great structure! Which is empty. I honestly expected something more to jump out at me or be standing in front of the exit. Or the ceiling to slowly collapse behind you to force you to run for the exit. But after getting this far, a calm exit might be best. You know, this level could actually be the second level of a ZDoom mini-episode. The level would end when you were about to enter the structure and the next level would pick up there. The first level would be an overland jungle trek which ends with you outside a half-buried Mayan pyramid and the ground collapsing under your feet, landing you in the first room of this map. Great level! Lots of fun. And great music! Very appropriate-feeling.

------
MAP25
------
I like that there are 4 ways in and two of them lead almost directly to keys. Actually a third one does too. I just worked my way backwards to get to the Yellow Key entrance area.

It's a shame this is vanilla. It would be cool to have blood rain outside creating the Bloodfalls and giving the title a double meaning (Blood Falls).

---
There is an SSG, a Rocket Launcher and 3 skull keys in grey space. Don't know why.

http://i.imgur.com/KFRUBa8.png

---
One texture slightly off in sector 423. At first I thought it was a secret.

http://i.imgur.com/IrDnGCu.png

It's because the ceiling didn't drop 8 units with the floor like the other alcoves. Ceiling should be at 136.

Old Post 05-08-14 22:42 #
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mouldy
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EffinghamHuffnagel said:


------
MAP25
------

There is an SSG, a Rocket Launcher and 3 skull keys in grey space. Don't know why.

http://i.imgur.com/KFRUBa8.png

---
One texture slightly off in sector 423. At first I thought it was a secret.

http://i.imgur.com/IrDnGCu.png




Well spotted. Those items outside the map are left over from testing I think. If eris doesnt mind deleting them and nudging that ceiling down that would be cool with me.

Old Post 05-08-14 22:55 #
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Da Werecat
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Mmkay, current versions of everything.

TITLEPIC:
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae293/da_werecat/Doom/name3.png

INTERPIC:
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae293/da_werecat/Doom/intername2.png

CREDIT attempt:
http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae293/da_werecat/Doom/namecredit0.png

I wanted to make BOSSBACK and then think about a new INTERPIC, but I don't feel much inspiration lately.

Old Post 05-09-14 23:14 #
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scifista42
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Personally, I like the TITLEPIC for being cool, I don't like the INTERPIC for being uninteresting, and I think in the CREDITS page, map names next to authors are kind of redundant because nobody will be able to read or remember them from the short appearance of this page. It may be a better idea to put them in BOSSBACK, but that's just a thought. Usually, listing mappers might be enough, and have a textfile for the rest. But I like the idea of mentioning map authors somewhere on one page. I'm actually not that complaining, I've only expressed my doubts, but I'm all OK with that and agree.

Old Post 05-10-14 09:33 #
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Antroid
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I still think that the interpic should be an open page of the red book from the titlepic. C'mon, you know it makes perfect sense.

Old Post 05-10-14 12:31 #
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mouldy
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scifista42 said:
Usually, listing mappers might be enough, and have a textfile for the rest. But I like the idea of mentioning map authors somewhere on one page. I'm actually not that complaining, I've only expressed my doubts, but I'm all OK with that and agree.


I'd prefer just a list of mappers. I guess if people wanted you could include the map authors on the individual CWILV map titles?

Old Post 05-10-14 12:56 #
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Eris Falling
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Antroid said:
I still think that the interpic should be an open page of the red book from the titlepic. C'mon, you know it makes perfect sense.


I agree with this. The way the stats would pop up on a blank page is a visualisation of Doom II being - quite literally - rewritten.

Also, glenzinho made all the CWILV graphics very early in development. Trouble is, many of them are out of date.
I'll try and hunt them down, I think they're in the old thread.

Hooray, the link isn't dead!

Last edited by Eris Falling on 05-10-14 at 13:20

Old Post 05-10-14 13:11 #
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joe-ilya
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BOSSBACK should be a bloody paper sheet.

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Old Post 05-10-14 13:23 #
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Da Werecat
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Here's what I think.

While any self-respecting megawad is expected to have a custom titlepic, everything else is entirely optional. I'd say, take titlepic and ignore everything else. I'd rather return to what I was doing before I decided to make that book picture.

Old Post 05-10-14 15:36 #
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mouldy
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By the way, I have another update for map 30 coming but I thought I might wait until EffinghamHuffnagel is finished testing in case they find anything else to fix.

Old Post 05-10-14 15:59 #
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EffinghamHuffnagel
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------
MAP26
------
Very nice. I particularly enjoyed the attention paid to the lighting. And because of the nice lighting I noticed two amazingly picky things. LITE5 texture is used in four different sectors. Sector 135, the sector in front of the door that's just north of the off-map Cyber, is the only sector with LITE5 that's darker than the one next to it. It's at 128 and the sector next to it with the two candles is at 144.

http://i.imgur.com/5xAqKQ6.png

The second is the hallway leading to the Yellow Key. The alternating light levels of 176 and 144 look great, but they're all the same CEIL1_2 light tiles. You could probably get away with FLAT10 for the darker sectors. Or not. I didn't notice this one until my third time through. That's how minor this is.

http://i.imgur.com/UtoDqhm.png

One more thing. I think this is the first map I've played that doesn't have a single Potion or Helmet. And also hasn't been balanced for difficulty levels at all. Everything is tagged Easy-Medium-Hard. Was that intentional or is that still planned?

And plums already caught the W1 monster closet teleport linedefs which I hadn't noticed.

---
mouldy,

Good Lord willing and the river don't rise, as soon as I get back from the Rescue Shelter (found a lost pet), I'm spending the rest of the day finishing this.

Old Post 05-10-14 16:05 #
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