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Joseph Lord
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Posts: 116
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If mouldy fixed map16, the map will be done.
Here is the final version of map 27, fixed to get sure.

http://www.speedyshare.com/NaGMr/map27.1.wad

Maybe i must give a check in map23 to get sure too

Edit: What the hell is the complication with map16. I just could understand something with a teleport and the yellow key

Last edited by Joseph Lord on 12-14-13 at 00:47

Old Post 12-14-13 00:37 #
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mouldy
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Joseph Lord said:
If mouldy fixed map16, the map will be done.
Here is the final version of map 27, fixed to get sure.

http://www.speedyshare.com/NaGMr/map27.1.wad

Maybe i must give a check in map23 to get sure too

Edit: What the hell is the complication with map16. I just could understand something with a teleport and the yellow key



There were 2 problem areas with map 16, shown in these pictures:
https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/9c12/f7byuof3z1gbq3q4g.jpg
You can download the map and see how I fixed them, and if you aren't happy then please feel free to change what I did. If you do then please check them in chocorenderlimits for visplane overflows.

Now for map 27 - did you playtest this? I don't know how, but you managed to fix what was wrong and break it again at the same time:

Sector 649 is meant to be a teleport after getting the yellow key, but it doesn't work. The linedefs are monster-only teleports and are tagged 66, and there is also no sector tagged 66 to teleport to.

Sector 605 is blocking the exit, but there is no switch to lower it.

The exit room has visplane overflows, the red area shows where the problem is:
https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/50fe/k323vfugu3os1mf4g.jpg

There are also a lot of texture alignment problems like this throughout the map:
https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/cd8d/gfekw14hxy6i6sh4g.jpg
https://www.mediafire.com/convkey/6687/6phwih0fh7dvp2j4g.jpg
If you use doom builder then all you need to do is look at a wall in visual mode and press A, it will auto-align it for you.

Old Post 12-14-13 02:25 #
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Antroid
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I am a bit confused: in the OP it says that map16 is by schwerpunk, but lately we've been talking about it as if it's Joseph Lord's map... what is the truth here?

Old Post 12-14-13 08:03 #
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Eris Falling
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I was under the impression Joseph Lord just touched up schwerpunk's map, apparently that is not the case. Fixing the OP.

Old Post 12-14-13 10:34 #
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Jaws In Space
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Eris Falling said:
I was under the impression Joseph Lord just touched up schwerpunk's map, apparently that is not the case. Fixing the OP.


Schwerpunk made everything that appears beyond the yellow key door. An outside area was present in the original version, but Joseph Lord completely redid it, so that each did about 50% of the map.

Old Post 12-14-13 11:01 #
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plums
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Posts: 2011
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OK, an illustrated documentary of my trip through map16-dec13.wad . I'm just linking images in this post because there's 27 of them, but if you prefer I can change them to embedded images.
Album here: http://imgur.com/a/ZhNKv

How much of this needs changing is up to you - my intent is only to report. I understand you want to get this released quickly, so consider this as much feedback for the mapper(s) for the future as it is things that need fixing before a release. All in all I thought it was a good map with very few serious issues. The health balance was weird with lots of soulspheres where I didn't need them for a while, but it worked out in the end.

Note that since this uses Doom 1 textures, I played it with UDgfxD2.wad, a wad by GreyGhost (I think?) that has all the missing Doom 1 textures. As far as I could tell, it didn't break anything.

http://i.imgur.com/ADRY0lw.png
We start our journey with some tutti frutti on the crates.

http://i.imgur.com/GKip5ul.png
These black walls as "barriers" looked kind of funny to me, some wood boards might be better.

http://i.imgur.com/hpz9cZk.png
The sign says "radiation" but I'm cooling my toes nicely without taking any damage. Not that I'm complaining!

http://i.imgur.com/Ke09Qp9.png
More tutti frutti in the corners of the grey radiation wall.

http://i.imgur.com/GrySsAc.png
The wall/door that's about to close on me is lower unpegged, and looks a little weird as it closes. Very minor, really.

http://i.imgur.com/HaybFNd.png
Just wanted to point out that this AV died from the blast radius of his own attack :D

http://i.imgur.com/WrFM8cR.png
These imps seem fairly unresponsive to all the gunfire around them. Not sure what they're meant to be waiting for.

http://i.imgur.com/muJxPWp.png
I could just weasel behind this tree to grab the dropped chaingun, and had a fairly hard time getting out again. Also note the low health, those chaingunners really did a number on me.

http://i.imgur.com/eJZSrM6.png
More weird wall blocks.

http://i.imgur.com/QMPB7Et.png
You're too tall to go up the stairs here on your right side - you bang your head on the ceiling. Could be fixed easily by raising the ceiling, or blocking the rightmost part of the stairs with a wall or pillar.

http://i.imgur.com/LOopsAq.png
OK, things suddenly go from "not too tough" to "wtf ouch I'm dead!" here. Having the Hell Knights teleport right behind you means almost certain death if you don't have foreknowledge of what's about to happen. Now I don't believe that maps always need to play fair, but this felt like quite the sucker punch.

http://i.imgur.com/8EtRlmd.png
This next bit was quite hard too - landing somewhere where you don't get torn up by chainguns is kind of based around luck. It's also really cramped at the bottom.

http://i.imgur.com/H6G4nFK.png
You can hear the arachnotrons easily here, even though they don't show themselves for a while and in a completely different area. Intentional?

http://i.imgur.com/WSX8xMF.png
Hmm, can't remember why I took this one. Leaving it here in case it comes back to me. In any case, fighting the Barons here was tricky if you let yourself get locked in before killing off one of them.

http://i.imgur.com/xjJoRjU.png
OK, the yellow key... I correctly guessed that these skulls meant "you can now get the yellow key." Unfortunately I couldn't remember where it was until I wandered around for at least five minutes. User error perhaps, but in such a long and non-linear level it's easy to forget things like this.

One idea by which you could make it's location more memorable is to have a yellow-key-only switch in that same room, marked clearly with yellow skulls. It doesn't need to do very much, maybe open the walls behind the armours in that room to reveal some stimpacks or something.

edit: OK, having re-read the thread I see now this is what the teleporter issue was about. Can't say I would have minded a teleport here - by this point there wasn't anything lurking about to shoot at me, it was just a matter of running around for a few minutes until I find the next place to go.

http://i.imgur.com/GhoM6aY.png
http://i.imgur.com/4BO5SJN.png
This wall doesn't seem to show up on the automap?

http://i.imgur.com/RIzQzAQ.png
Revenant surprise was quite the scare, I managed to get through it with minimal damage though.

Not pictured: the monster-spam fight prior to this. You really don't need the invulnerability on UV, IMHO. Even if it's not entirely obvious how to get it, it's not exactly well hidden, and it basically turns that fight into nothing more than an ammo tax.

http://i.imgur.com/lyjqbFh.png
Visplane overflow! If that door in the red box is opened, the map will bomb out from approximately the point in the screenshot. Rare perhaps, but given my tried-and-true strategy of running away swiftly I was able to trigger it easily.

http://i.imgur.com/K7TNjM1.png
The "try every door" game got a little tedious. You could maybe light up the lion heads above the doors that opened, if you wanted to give it away. If it's an intentional part of the gameplay, then fine, but it's one I didn't care for.

http://i.imgur.com/bmTx14b.png
I couldn't open this door from this direction, or maybe only once. Seemed strange.

http://i.imgur.com/p3TRbsK.png
This is the teleporter in contention? I certainly appreciated it for theoretically letting me avoid needless backtracking. What I didn't like is that I didn't realize it was a teleporter until I stepped on it, and then I had to go back to that place anyhow because I wanted to scoop up the medikits.

http://i.imgur.com/bsCOzsC.png
Strange and easy AV fight. Some texture misalignments.

http://i.imgur.com/UN5kUQj.png
Here I pick up the BFG only after killing everything :P
The chaingunners at the start of this massive fight were the only troublesome enemies, once they were dead I just waited for everything to kill everything else and then took the plasma rifle to the spider mastermind to finish it off.

http://i.imgur.com/MHAYhGN.png
Another easy AV fight, seemed like the two AVs were meant to play off one another but in practice they were quite patient with me, letting me handle them one at a time.

http://i.imgur.com/HT2fD8V.png
Final stats! I obviously missed some secrets, so perhaps I'll go back to max it just to see if anything else crops up.

Last edited by plums on 12-15-13 at 06:46

Old Post 12-15-13 06:12 #
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schwerpunk
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plums said:
http://i.imgur.com/K7TNjM1.png
The "try every door" game got a little tedious. You could maybe light up the lion heads above the doors that opened, if you wanted to give it away. If it's an intentional part of the gameplay, then fine, but it's one I didn't care for.

A lot of your screenshots I don't even recognize, so kudos to Joseph for his extensive work on this troublesome map!

I did recognize this old chestnut, though. Unless Joseph has changed it, the doors that can be opened have brighter lights, and the light flickering effect applied to them. It's subtle, but even in Chocolate Doom all you have to do is stand still for a moment in the hallway, and you'll notice this.

Old Post 12-15-13 07:27 #
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plums
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Posts: 2011
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schwerpunk said:
I did recognize this old chestnut, though. Unless Joseph has changed it, the doors that can be opened have brighter lights, and the light flickering effect applied to them. It's subtle, but even in Chocolate Doom all you have to do is stand still for a moment in the hallway, and you'll notice this.


Ah, I did miss that while playing but now that you've pointed it out it seems fairly obvious. That's probably enough of a hint.

Old Post 12-15-13 07:39 #
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mouldy
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Cheers for the extensive feedback plums, very useful. A lot of it is down to Joseph's quirky design choices, I can overlook the weird use of textures and occasionally strange fights as that is just his thing (and this map is pretty playable compared to some of his others).


http://i.imgur.com/WSX8xMF.png
Hmm, can't remember why I took this one. Leaving it here in case it comes back to me. In any case, fighting the Barons here was tricky if you let yourself get locked in before killing off one of them.


Maybe you took that pic because the blocking hanging corpse is annoying? I'd have chosen a non blocking decoration myself...

I can't be sure if Joseph will attend to any of these points, he tends to pop in here very rarely and doesn't respond much to feedback, then sometimes appears weeks later with a completely revamped map with more problems to fix. So I will fix the tuttis and the vpo just so we have a version without technical issues.

Last edited by mouldy on 12-15-13 at 16:37

Old Post 12-15-13 14:27 #
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plums
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plums said:
http://i.imgur.com/WSX8xMF.png
Hmm, can't remember why I took this one. Leaving it here in case it comes back to me. In any case, fighting the Barons here was tricky if you let yourself get locked in before killing off one of them.


Ah-ha, I see it: slime trails. Several of them, though this screenshot only captures one. Don't know if that's even fixable but maybe jiggle a few vertices around if you want to try?

edit: on playing this again they're actually not bad at all, I might not have noticed them even if I had been lucky. Safe to ignore.


mouldy said:
Cheers for the extensive feedback plums, very useful. [...] I will fix the tuttis and the vpo just so we have a version without technical issues.


Yeah, I don't expect this to get completely overhauled again at this point. Getting it bug free is the most important part. Good luck on getting a beta of this project released promptly!

Last edited by plums on 12-15-13 at 15:48

Old Post 12-15-13 15:27 #
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plums
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mouldy said:
edit: here's an updated version of map 16 with the above fixes:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/c...map16-dec15.wad



Looks good, except you've still got BIGDOOR2 as a door texture for the narrow door, when you probably want SPCDOOR2 or whatever it is called.

edit: I found a few other minor cosmetic/gameplay bugs but only minor ones. The biggest is this monster closet:

http://i.imgur.com/562xWd2.png

The teleporters are all W1, and so if a demon walks over one where there's something on the destination already, he wastes it and will get stuck.

Using noclip eventually gave me a VPO but that can't really be helped.

Last edited by plums on 12-15-13 at 16:02

Old Post 12-15-13 15:39 #
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mouldy
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Oops, forgot about the door.

Here's another update with those other things you mentioned, fixed that slime trail too:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/z...map16-dec13.wad

Old Post 12-15-13 16:36 #
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marineController
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Just been doing some testing with the beta release, I'm about half way through now:

TEXTURE2 contains duplicate textures: BLODGR1...4, DBRAIN1...4, WFALL1...4
The wad contains two PNAMES lumps

MAP01
No player 2, 3 and 4 starts, no deathmatch starts

MAP02
Reject is all zero (not really a problem)
Deathmatch start (thing 154) on top of monster

MAP03
Reject is all zero (not really a problem)
Has zero length segs (428, 1855)

MAP04
No player 2, 3 and 4 starts, no deathmatch starts

MAP05
No deathmatch starts

MAP06
No player 2, 3 and 4 starts, no deathmatch starts

MAP08
Has 2 player 3 starts, no player 4 start and no deathmatch starts
Lines 1704 and 1722 have W1 monster teleports

MAP09
Sector 797 has no area
Has a DoomBuilder start (not a problem)
Things 691 and 692 are stuck on top of each other
No deathmatch starts
Line 5390 marked as a teleport (not really a problem)

MAP10
Sector 900 has no area
Has a DoomBuilder start (not a problem)
No player 2, 3 and 4 starts, no deathmatch starts
DR/D1 trigger lines don't need line or sector tags (not really a problem)
Lines 4612, 4621, 4627 and 4633 have no tags

MAP11
Has a DoomBuilder start (not a problem)
Things 695 to 737 (43 off) have no skill flags set
Line 4088 is SR action but has tag 0

MAP12
No deathmatch starts

MAP13
Has a DoomBuilder start (not a problem)
Things 797 and 798 are stuck on top of each other

MAP14
Reject is all zero (not really a problem)
Nodebuilder has created duplicate seg vertices and zero length segs

MAP15
No deathmatch starts

MAP16
Line 3239 is not referenced, side 4518 is not referenced
Lots of things (0, 43, 44, 80 ...) have odd angles (not really a problem)
No player 2, 3 and 4 starts, no deathmatch starts

MAP19 and MAP25 have Boom action specials

Old Post 12-16-13 00:24 #
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Antroid
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I don't think those are duplicate textures, they're our new animated liquidfalls that aren't in the original textures.
Also who the hell cares about deathmatch starts? I'm betting more than half of the maps won't even be playable in deathmatch at all, starts or no.

Old Post 12-16-13 01:07 #
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mouldy
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marineController said:


MAP19 and MAP25 have Boom action specials



I can't find a boom action special on map 25, can you tell me where it is?

Old Post 12-16-13 01:35 #
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plums
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Assuming it hasn't changed since D2INO_BR.wad in the first post, here:
http://i.imgur.com/FQFBHrt.png

On map 19, they're on the "314" linedefs (which looks like it doesn't matter anyhow).

Last edited by plums on 12-16-13 at 07:19

Old Post 12-16-13 07:01 #
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scifista42
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marineController said:
MAP19 and MAP25 have Boom action specials

plums said:
On map 19, they're on the "314" linedefs (which looks like it doesn't matter anyhow).
I did that to highlight the sign in advanced ports, I made a few similar color-highlighting tricks in the map. I probably considered it cool back then, but now admit it's kind of dumb, so I might remove that 314 sign completely.
Spoiler:
I wrote the number there after I found out that the area around looks vaguely like someone's head. I sometimes tend to feel and behave like a kid, despite being (19yo) adult actually. :)

The linedefs are in a safe place and technically they won't break vanilla. Vanilla would break only if the player tried to pass the linedefs, which is impossble since they're one-sided walls outside the map's boundaries.

Old Post 12-16-13 07:41 #
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mouldy
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plums said:
Assuming it hasn't changed since D2INO_BR.wad in the first post, here:
http://i.imgur.com/FQFBHrt.png




Cool, cheers. Seeing as you can't seem to walk over those linedefs its probably safe to leave them, but if they need fixing it'll be simplest for Eris to just take the actions off those lines.

Old Post 12-16-13 13:07 #
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marineController
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Just finished checking Maps 17 to 35, so here is some more stuff that may or may not be a problem:

Maps 17, 18, 19, 21, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31 have no deathmatch starts.
Maps 18, 22, 23, 27, 34, 35 have Doombuilder starts (not really a problem).

MAP17
No player 2, 3 and 4 starts.
Lines 920 and 926 have S1 actions without sector tags.

MAP19
As you said before the Boom specials are unreachable so shouldn't be a problem.
Thing 358 (HK) is stuck on top of thing 494 (Imp) on Easy skill.

MAP22
Deathmatch start (thing 16) on top of a cacodemon.
Has 3 deathmatch starts (4 is minimum for vanilla deathmatch).
Lines 98, 2193, 2256, 2260, 2264, 2799, 4521, 4692 and 5304 are W1 monster teleports.

MAP23
Lines 663, 2185, 2322 have an action and a tag but have no linked sector (may not be a problem).
Lines 1881, 3466 have SR action but no tag.
Lines 2053, 2295, 2440, 2447 are W1 monster teleports.

MAP25
No player 2, 3 and 4 starts.
Lines 737 and 981 have Boom specials (and as you have said shouldn't really cause any problems).

MAP26
No player 2, 3 and 4 starts.
Lines 845, 1621, 1628, 1635, 1642, 1649, 1656, 1746 are W1 monster teleports.

MAP27
Lines 1908, 1915, 1922, 2780, 2783, 3182, 3809, 3820, 4235, 4242, 4524, 4525, 4526, 4719, 4726 are W1 monster teleports.
Line 4573 is W1 teleport but sector tag is zero.

MAP28
Lines 2742, 4241, 4253, 4266 are marked WR teleports with tags but are not linked to any sectors.

MAP29
Sector 89 has no area.

MAP30
Lines 323 and 599 have actions but are not linked to a sector.

MAP31
Lines 6920, 6921, 6925, 6930, 6937, 6939, 6947, 6959, 6960, 6968, 6982 are W1 monster teleports.

MAP33
Sector 214 has no area.
Has 1 deathmatch start.

MAP34
Sector 206 has no area.
Thing 1063 teleport destination is only present on hard skill.
Thing 1029 (Chaingunner) is stuck on top of 1294 (Shotgun guy) on medium skill.
Lines 158, 2957 have actions but are not linked to sectors.
Line 953 has an SR action but no tag (maybe should be 76).
Lines 1328, 1855 are W1 monster teleports.

When I get more time I will play through it to check things like kills and secrets.

Old Post 12-16-13 22:03 #
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scifista42
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marineController said:
Maps 17, 18, 19, 21, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31 have no deathmatch starts.

...

Thing 358 (HK) is stuck on top of thing 494 (Imp) on Easy skill.

Really sorry, it's me again, and I don't know what you're talking about.

MAP19 DO have deathmatch starts, and always had. All of them are around the central area inside the citadel.

Thing 358 (actually hell knight) is in a completely different area than thing 494 (which is hell knight, not an imp). Things sometimes overlaps, but never on the same skill.

Just to be clear, link to the latest MAP19 is here, I posted it 2 pages back: http://www.speedyshare.com/7X4ut/d2...ps-7-and-19.zip
But I even checked an older version, the one in the released alpha/beta (D2INO_BR.wad), and none of these problems were there. Isn't it possible that you've been talking about a different map? I apologize, I'm not at all angry but confused quite a lot.

Old Post 12-16-13 23:08 #
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mouldy
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Thanks for checking the maps marineController. Some of those errors seem to be from old versions of the maps but you picked up on some stuff I missed on map 28.

Not sure what is happpening with deathmatch. It will be too much hassle to get all the map authors to sort out DM starts, I think its fairly obvious hardly any of us plays deathmatch. I suggested before that once the maps are finished it might be an idea for someone who is into deathmatch to go through them all adding missing DM starts. To be honest though, with such little thought put into them I cant imagine they will play very well.

There is also the issue of co-op players getting locked out to be considered if your map has any rooms that lock players inside until they press a switch. I've just realised map 30 is fucked for co-op...

Old Post 12-16-13 23:51 #
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marineController
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Oops, both of those items (stuck HK and DM starts) should have been listed for MAP20, sorry about that.

Old Post 12-17-13 00:44 #
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CorSair
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Because I am no expert, how does that "Multiplayer" flag work?

And marineController, thanks for those heads-ups.

Old Post 12-17-13 07:55 #
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scifista42
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CorSair said:
Because I am no expert, how does that "Multiplayer" flag work?
If you flag a thing with the "Multiplayer" flag, it will not spawn in singleplayer at all, it will spawn only in deathmatch and coop modes. In vanilla, there's no way to make a thing appear only in singleplayer, or only in DM but not coop, or only coop but not DM. Keycards are hardcoded to not spawn in DM, that's the only exception.


marineController said:
Oops, both of those items (stuck HK and DM starts) should have been listed for MAP20, sorry about that.
OK, thanks for clearing it up. Of course, respect to you for all the job you're doing for this project.

Old Post 12-17-13 15:07 #
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_bruce_
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Posts: 1300
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Thanks for the check marineController - will take care the
Stuck deathmatch start. Regarding the reject info -
After aeons I discover that option '-R' of zdbsp.exe zeroes
Out the reject... A discovery more important to doomkind than
Nuclear fusion.

Old Post 12-17-13 19:54 #
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_bruce_
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_bruce_ said:
Thanks for the check marineController - will take care of the
Stuck deathmatch start. Regarding the reject info -
After aeons I discover that option '-R' of zdbsp.exe zeroes
Out the reject... A discovery more important to doomkind than
Nuclear fusion.



Please delete my original post above, for I cannot.
Thx

Last edited by _bruce_ on 12-18-13 at 09:45

Old Post 12-17-13 20:01 #
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cannonball
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I will give this a proper playtest between Christmas and New year as it's probably the biggest piece of free time I have currently. I'm glad on a technical front that I only have deathmatch starts to add to my maps.
Kudos to marinecontroller for all the technical know-how

Old Post 12-17-13 20:32 #
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Antroid
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Posts: 1500
Registered: 09-07


Here's a link to a slightly updated map04. Added the coop starts and cleaned up the automap a bit. Didn't change anything about the green base part because it's already perfect.

Old Post 12-18-13 06:27 #
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mouldy
Senior Member


Posts: 1586
Registered: 02-12


Multiplayer Updates to all my maps: 20, 25, 28 & 30

http://www.mediafire.com/download/u...dates-dec22.zip

Fixed (hopefully) any co op problems and added deathmatch starts/weapons

Old Post 12-22-13 15:12 #
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Antroid
Senior Member


Posts: 1500
Registered: 09-07


Does anyone have to finish anything remotely significant up at this point? I'm terrible at remembering so I have to ask each time. Also to bump all you lazy bums a bit. So, this time, what prevents us (and by "us" I mean the glorious project leader) from compiling and releasing the beta?

I think stuff like "2 player 3 starts" (which sounds like a title of a disgusting video) and "W1 monster teleports" shouldn't wait for each author to get around to it; one person, maybe Eris, maybe mouldy if he's not sick of it all by this point, could just go through marineController's list and adress stuff that reasonably should be adressed (meaning forget about deathmatch starts :P some maps are totally not fit for deathmatch, I can't imagine any one of mine would work for example, and it's not like anyone would want to play these SP-oriented maps in deathmatch for some reason).

Old Post 12-22-13 15:55 #
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