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mouldy
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Antroid said:
That article is a bit misinformed in places... D2INO really isn't, for the most part, that graphically impressive (by today's doom mapping standarts, even vanilla, I should clarify), there's map31 that uses new textures and a new monster, and it's not a "doomworld page", but a thread on the forums that has those screenshots of every level.

I liked the RPS thing more. But what's with these articles anyway? Are there such articles for many projects (the DTWiDs would deserve one each IMO, and many, many more)? Or does our actually stand out in some bizarre way?



I guess all the doom 4 teasing has left a doom shaped information vacuum out there, still nice to get a bit of publicity for any doom project.

Old Post 07-29-14 15:22 #
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FuzzballFox
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Gg on the Kotaku post guys- nice to see something other that LULZ BROOTAL DUM being showcased somewhere!

Old Post 07-29-14 16:57 #
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Marcaek
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After kotaku showcased an alpha of a mod where you deathmatch as super powered cars(it's not as awesome as it sounds, believe me), I don't know how anyone could take them seriously anymore.

In any case, I'm going to address some concerns here:


really don't understand why some people can't seem to ascertain that the whole point of this project was to have maps of various size and feel, depending on how the authors wanted to interpret the titles. call it inconsistent if you want, but the length comments in particular don't really make sense to me.


The problem with long maps is that unless they're super interesting and engaging all the way through, the length amplifies the effect the flaws in it have on player enjoyment. If a map is long for the sake of being long, instead of showcasing engaging gameplay in a way that feels like it justifies being included in a map at all, people are going to feel like the maps are being padded out with filler.


it seems like a lot of people just want more "the way id did" style stuff and are applying that to this without bothering to understand that this is different. sure, those mods are popular, but those no reason people have to do things that way - or, by the way, that every megawad has to follow the same kind of feel or progression. that's just silly.


I'd like to know *exactly* where you get this overly specific impression. I kind of feel like you're passing the buck for the relatively poor reception by constructing strawmen as if there's a legitimate reason the criticisms are just outright invalid(because it certainly looks like it, "they just don't understand" is never a good response to criticism).


honestly i feel like cuz this set is kinda inconsistent and done by newer mappers, it's an excuse for more experienced people to come in and dismiss and/or shit on it in an effort to distinguish themselves from it. i don't like it, but whatever.


Here's how it works. If someone makes a weak map it's a weak map. It may have some cool ideas in it but overall if it isn't fun it will feel like wasted potential. Newbie mappers *need* critical feedback to better understand what it is people like and dislike about doom mapping, and no amount of pretentious handwaving will ever change this.

Old Post 07-29-14 17:53 #
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ella guro
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ah, i'm feeling really embarrassed about being credited as being involved in the project. i'm sorry guys. (kotaku post is here btw):

http://kotaku.com/doom-ii-mod-re-im...ames-1612681927


Antroid said:
That article is a bit misinformed in places... D2INO really isn't, for the most part, that graphically impressive (by today's doom mapping standarts, even vanilla, I should clarify), there's map31 that uses new textures and a new monster, and it's not a "doomworld page", but a thread on the forums that has those screenshots of every level.

I liked the RPS thing more. But what's with these articles anyway? Are there such articles for many projects (the DTWiDs would deserve one each IMO, and many, many more)? Or does our actually stand out in some bizarre way?



the RPS one was probably more accurate because RPS is generally a better website. i'm somewhat involved in the indie game scene and have several friends in common with the writer of that one, so it probably originally got written up for that reason. sites like Kotaku and PC Gamer also constantly post content as part of their model, and stuff with a good headline usually get prioritized. i'm all for more Doom mods getting press, anyway. also you'd be surprised how many people outside the Doom community have heard of the "the way id did" wads. i know i try to hype up cool Doom mod stuff i find on my twitter, anyway.

re: Marcaek, i guess i'd say there are things that a lot of people in the Doom community consider 'bad design' that i'd disagree with. sometimes i feel like people prioritize a sort of polish or professionalism over creativity or trying something different, which is not the only way to design a map. and i'm not disagreeing that D2INO couldn't be a lot stronger, or that it's not inconsistent. but i kind of appreciate Map 07's absurd length, even if it does drag down the pacing. and i like Map 09 in general, but i like big exploratory maps. i like things that subvert expectations or try something different, i guess, even if they are a bit rough around the edges.

it's a valid point that people should take criticism to improve, and i agree, but sometimes i feel like it falls into a "you're not approved by us" mentality. i didn't have a lot invested in this project, so it's not killing me that this project had a mixed reception. but i've been in a lot of online communities in the past where the more popular members bully the newer/more inexperienced ones, so i guess i'm more sensitive to it than most people.

anyway, not trying to start a fight here, and there's definitely room for improvement. i appreciate all the different ways people make maps, which is one of the reason i still follow the Doom community after all these years. i guess sometimes i get really annoyed that people can't seem to see the value in things i'm really into (the mod A.L.T. is i guess the prime example of that).

Last edited by ella guro on 07-29-14 at 19:21

Old Post 07-29-14 19:15 #
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_bruce_
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I guess the mega wad market has been branded by a few front runners and anybody is getting judged via an established criteria.

Old Post 07-29-14 19:56 #
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plums
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ella guro said:
i guess i'd say there are things that a lot of people in the Doom community consider 'bad design' that i'd disagree with. sometimes i feel like people prioritize a sort of polish or professionalism over creativity or trying something different, which is not the only way to design a map. and i'm not disagreeing that D2INO couldn't be a lot stronger, or that it's not inconsistent. but i kind of appreciate Map 07's absurd length, even if it does drag down the pacing. and i like Map 09 in general, but i like big exploratory maps. i like things that subvert expectations or try something different, i guess, even if they are a bit rough around the edges.



Excellent post ella, I agree with you wholeheartedly, especially this paragraph.

As far as your name being on things, I don't think anyone's going to care too much. If it means the project gets more attention because you've got indie game rep and they can use your name, all the better.

Old Post 07-29-14 21:32 #
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Ragnor
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Pretty awesome that you guys have at least two articles out there. I got a kick out of reading the comments, just for the non-DW Doom love going on, even if half of them are stereotypical Brutal Doomers. I feel bad for Eris though, not getting recognition in either one.

Old Post 07-29-14 21:49 #
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Antroid
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I knew that fitting into 666 days was a very important thing - look how everyone's mentioning it! :D Eris' pictures also get way more attention than I expected.

Also, needless to say, I agree with ella on the reception of this wad. It's not like I don't value polish, but to me it's the absense of negligence like misaligned textures and places where you can get stuck.

I am all for uneven gameplay with spikes and droughts in action, suddenly longer maps, and most of all conceptually strong maps that aren't just "meh techbase" but try to convey a place. That's what's drawn me into the project in the first place. Such maps are more memorable than many entire [mega]wads to me. (Guess which one I would cite first as an example of polish being completely useless because the whole thing is scarily unmemorable...)

But besides acknowledging that some people want just the most carefully designed entertainment per minute and lots of eye candy as well, I am still not seeing the "bad" maps that some people claim this wad has. Okay, I might not be the biggest fan of all of them, subjectivity incoming: I found maps 02 and 03 a tad boring, the south corridor maze thingy in map19 should not exist, and maps 23 and 27 are a bit too loose and abstract for the project's goals, IMO. But I strain and strain and just can't see genuinely bad maps, let alone ones that make you think "holy shit was there any quality control" like the most recent idgames review claims. I think that's absolutely ridiculous.

I also don't see how wolfenstein is so much better than everything else besides by virtue of being allowed custom textures but that's beside the point :X

Old Post 07-30-14 05:48 #
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Memfis
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I open D2INO.WAD in doom2.exe via DOSBox, start a new game and map01 immediately crashes with a Z_CheckHeap error.
Doesn't happen without DOSBox.
?

Old Post 07-30-14 12:58 #
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plums
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Memfis: try deleting D_RUNNIN from the wad and see if it works?

Old Post 07-30-14 13:20 #
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DeathevokatioN
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Map31 is amazing, but how do I reach the yellow key?

Old Post 07-30-14 19:45 #
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Tarnsman
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Antroid said:
I also don't see how wolfenstein is so much better than everything else besides by virtue of being allowed custom textures but that's beside the point :X


It has a good layout, good flow, good architcture, doesn't feel like it goes on long past the point of running out of ideas, properly uses all those things to actually convey a scene and is overall well designed. Why is most of D2INO bad? Because it fails at pretty much all those things. Yes even "conveying a sense of place".

Old Post 07-30-14 23:15 #
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Antroid
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I don't exactly agree that most of D2INO fails at all that whatsoever but I guess I can see where you're coming from. Although I still can't see how 31 does all that so much better than most other maps. Heck, a lot of people get stuck trying to get the yellow key, because they don't think to jump down in that one place. That ain't better "flow" than most of D2INO!

Old Post 07-31-14 05:58 #
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_bruce_
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Map31 appears like an actual place with a meaning. I think it was very well done. I prefer abstract maps like in the original but 31 was really cool and felt special. It was also way better crafted than most.

Old Post 07-31-14 10:35 #
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mouldy
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I'm so fucking bored with this stupid argument for the sake of argument now. Everyone stop exaggerating and whining and move on.


DeathevokatioN said:
Map31 is amazing, but how do I reach the yellow key?


There are 2 switches to lower the yellow key, one of them involves a slightly unintuitive jump down from a ledge that I always miss myself, so I'm guessing that might be the one you can't find. I think its quite nearby where the yellow key is.

Old Post 07-31-14 10:46 #
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Da Werecat
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Considering "a load of gaming articles", I'm expecting "This wad isn't worthy!" attitude to stay for some time.

Well, at least joe-ilya will feel good for a change.

Old Post 07-31-14 12:05 #
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Antroid
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mouldy said:
I'm so fucking bored with this stupid argument for the sake of argument now. Everyone stop exaggerating and whining and move on.


*sigh* fiiiine, although I will say that I'm slightly annoyed that there are these metaphysical qualities to things that are seemingly completely outside of my perception. Surely you can understand how annoying it might feel.

But okay, yeah, this is a bit pointless. Maybe if I played more doom maps in general I'd also pick up on these things easier.


Da Werecat said:
Considering "a load of gaming articles", I'm expecting "This wad isn't worthy!" attitude to stay for some time.

Well, fuck'em! :D The important thing is that WE know it is!

Old Post 07-31-14 12:32 #
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Tarnsman
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Since Bruce asked for a per map breakdown here is Part 1:

Overall failings: Most maps go on for way too long, far past the point where the map feels fresh or relevant. Much like games that pad out their playing length with fetch quests and pointless grinding, Doom maps can suffer the same way. Long maps can be some of the best maps in Doom but they can also be the worst maps (a bad long map will always be worse than a bad short map), unless you're 100% confident in your ability to make a Espi/Huy Pham/Mechadon level epic that really feels like a long spanning adventure through an actual location do not constantly try and make your "Magnum Opus" by padding your map with what basically amounts to filler. Long maps live and breathe on the strength of interesting design, layouts, and structure which is where most of D2INO fails.

The biggest problem with the overall concept of Doom 2 in Name Only is Doom 2 ALREADY IS that. Sandy Petersen especially was a master of taking a concept and executing it in the simplest way possible. This map is a prime example of failing to do that. I also take umbrage at the fact that D2INO is not "generic techbases" or "generic" anything because there are a lot of "generic techbase" "generic city level" "generic gothic castle thing" maps in D2INO.

Map 01:
I like the focus on the massive entrance but the rest of the map feels unneeded. It's supposed to be an entryway not an entryway followed by a series of bland, architecturally uninteresting rooms with pretty standard fair gameplay.

Map 02:
Like this map. Bruce is one of the highpoints of D2INO. His "fuck you I'm making my map look like melted cheese on the automap" is one of my favorite unique styles in the Doom community, his texture usage and structure generally looks good in a neo-classic style and the maps play pretty good.

Map 03:
See Map 02

Map 04:
It's ugly, the rooms are overly square and it lacks architectural verve but there is some nice height variation in places, it feels like a thing, it's an interesting take on the word "focus" and the gameplay isn't too bad. Overall an okay map. Also It's a generic techbase.

Map 05:
An Mutt's worst map. He agrees with me. It's garbage. Tight cramped gameplay. Ugly visuals. Bad Layout. Terrible, terrible flow.

Map 06:
Oh look it's our first look at D2INOs serious problem grasping the elementary concept of what a plural is. The map is supposed to be "The Crusher" not "A bunch of Crushers". Too long, most of the map feels like filler, not up to snuff with other Processing Control maps I've played recently in terms of flow and gameplay (particularly his TNT2 stuff), overly brown, poor lighting, the main Crusher itself feels like something I'd find in Maximum Doom

Map 07:
I like triangles and I liked this map until it refused to fucking end. The critical word in Dead Simple is SIMPLE. This map fails in that department it also fails in not being an overly long grind.

Map 08:
Not enough focus on the tricks and traps and very, very generic techbase but otherwise a solid classic map. The room shapes are more interesting than the other generic techbases so far and the structure is good an connected it has the "techbase built into Nukage canyon" setting as Map 4 which is always a solid choice. If this map was in MM1 or 2 I probably wouldn't bat an eye and I would like it a bunch.

Map 09:
Really open in an uninteresting way that makes it both visually boring and boring to play. Lacks the architectural verve that makes massive maps like this work (see Huy Pham/Mechadon) the progression is pretty boring and hidden staircases and random key placement do not make gameplay interesting because it's "outside the box" it makes it 1994 level "Doom needs to be an adventure game". You can get away with that. This map did not. For an example of a good adventure map that feels like a place and actually works see Map 32 of CC2 or Espi's map in Eternal Doom 4.

Map 10:
Generic techbase. Also contained a hallway full of demons that reduced the gameplay to holding down mouse 1 while I cleaved through a door with health, only to be followed by a room with two Barons that acted as doors with health. If you ever have that it's time to delete your map and start over.

Map 11:
Like the structure, like the flow, like the visuals, like the idea. It's a bit too long that side BK area with the lowering bars and the pill box towers that looks like something that could be in the Master Levels felt really unneeded and there were multiple circles of death (again Doom 2 In Name Only struggling with basic English) but overall a solid map.

Map 12:
Generic techbase. Generic Cannonball square rooms with things in the middle of them. Not his best effort. Not absolutely terrible either.

Map 13:
Downtown + a boring tunnel network and half of the map that felt totally unneeded and padded. Best part of this map was that it contained a room that reminded me of a Descent 2 level and how much more fun I'd be having if I played that.

Map 14:
Bruce's best map in the set. Still melted. Still shapely. Can UDINO be canceled and replaced with Doom the Way Bruce Did.

Map 15:
Another prime example of maps that go on too long. Most of the building interiors feel indistinguishable from one another. There is this cool blood area in the north but without sky holes it feels totally disconnected from the rest of the map like I walked into another map that someone stuck onto this one to pad out the length. Should have been cut into the building interiors to give them more change up. Also Generic Doom City. Gameplay was serviceable though.

Map 31:
See this shit right here? Do this. Good shapes. Good structure. Good visuals (not overly complicated either almost all detail is macro and structural VERY little micro if any). Actually feels like a location and an adventure. Good job Xaser.

Map 32:
Ugly but the concept is pretty good. Not one of Capellan's best maps though.

Map 16:
The entire prison section of this map doesn't need to exist and is pointless. I guess it's supposed to be apartments but what it really is, is bland hallways with boring gameplay. The "city maze" was also very 1994. Just because it's different doesn't mean it's fun.

Map 17:
Bland, poor lighting, bad gameplay decisions, overly square. An Mutt agrees, moving on.

Map 18:
You had one job D2INO! How hard is it to see your map title does not have an 's' on the end and only make one thing. It's COURTYARD ! Singular. Do we need to go back to elementary school? Also bland uninteresting "generic gothic/wood doom map with LITE3 and 5 thrown in for no reason".

Map 19:
Here is a long map that works. It feels explorey. It feels like a Citadel. It feels like the encounters were thought out. The lighting adds to the atmosphere. Good job.

Map 20:
A good take on the title and a good use of noble class monsters for a change. Good job Mouldy. Not as quirky and unique as some of your other stuff or as visually polished but solid overall.

I'll play the rest later.

Anyways, if D2INO was more "TWID" it would not make it better. Frankly I'd prefer a more modern visual and structural approach. D2INO fails because It's ugly in an uninteresting way that directly impacts the attempt to make things look like a location and encourage an atmospheric adventure style of gameplay (do not give me WAAAH BUT VANILLA LIMITS TARNSMAN) you can make tons of beautiful intricate things in Vanilla as long as you don't go for totally optimized boxes with uninteresting shapes, wall inlets and poor lighting (aka the worst way you can map in vanilla)

Judging it purely on the standards of what Antroid wants and not my own standards of what constitute good layouts and flow it still fails. I can get past bad layouts if the journey is interesting. It's not in D2INO. The environments are ugly and feel uninspired or generic for the most part. Even with stock textures you can make interesting environments. Bruce proved that already in this very set and another mapper who does a really good job using only stock is SZoF911.

There are some good mappers in this project but I don't think they really delivered. Processing Control especially. Processing Control's Map 05 in TNT2 is a great example of a good map that does feel like a journey/adventure even with less than polished visuals. So I was really blown away by how much I disliked Map 06.

2/5 so far.

Old Post 07-31-14 20:36 #
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Fellowzdoomer
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Well, tarnsman, they can't just restart the project. You basically just said that nearly all the maps are bad, as well as (probably) not seeing the creativity underneath it all.

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Old Post 07-31-14 20:43 #
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Tarnsman
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Creativity? Creativity is making a map that's good. If your defense for criticism sounds like something that an American Idol contestant would say upon the Judges telling them, you in fact cannot sing, it's time to rethink your hugbox. Also if creativity is the only requirement for a Doom map then Maximum Doom is the zenith of Doom quality.

P.S. why is it "creativity" only gets thrown around as a defense when defending maps that are not creative and exemplify the most generic nothingness of Doom?

Old Post 07-31-14 20:52 #
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Fellowzdoomer
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I've been on and off this thread for a while, but I think they wanted to change things up a bit. Everybody has a different imagination when it comes to doom's level names.(Ex. Containment Area to me sounds like a jail level while someone else may think its a cargo bay.)

Besides, if you hate a certain map(s), nobody is stopping you from loading up DB2 and doing Doom 2 In Name Only The Way Tarnsman Did... is there?

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Old Post 07-31-14 21:00 #
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Tarnsman
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Fellowzdoomer said:
I've been on and off this thread for a while, but I think they wanted to change things up a bit. Everybody has a different imagination when it comes to doom's level names.(Ex. Containment Area to me sounds like a jail level while someone else may think its a cargo bay.)

That has nothing to do with the quality of the end product. Mouldy took a pretty unique approach to Gotcha!'s name and it turned out as one of the best maps. Whether you make a jail or a cargo bay if it's a bad map, it's a bad map. A map is bad because the pieces of the map don't work as a whole, not because the idea itself was bad.


Fellowzdoomer said:
Besides, if you hate a certain map(s), nobody is stopping you from loading up DB2 and doing Doom 2 In Name Only The Way Tarnsman Did... is there?

Unless you're a master class chef you can't criticize the food if someone asks you why you didn't like it.

Last edited by Tarnsman on 07-31-14 at 21:20

Old Post 07-31-14 21:11 #
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Fellowzdoomer
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Tarnsman said:


Unless you're a master class chef you can't criticize the food if someone asks you why you didn't like it.



[Badjoke]
Spoiler:
*cough cough gag*Chef Ramsey*gag cough cough*

[/badjoke]

On a serious note, it may have been how outyour rant sounded in my head. I apologize if it is.

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Da Werecat
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Tarnsman said:
The map is supposed to be "The Crusher" not "A bunch of Crushers".

It has a bunch of crushers, and then it has the crusher. I don't see a problem here.

Old Post 07-31-14 21:17 #
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Tarnsman
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Da Werecat said:

It has a bunch of crushers, and then it has the crusher. I don't see a problem here.



Having the map based around a singular crusher that you have to repeatedly navigate in interesting and unique ways would not only make for a better, smaller, and more polished playing experience but also "The Crusher" sounds definitive and the experience is lessened by having a bunch of crushers.

Old Post 07-31-14 21:23 #
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Phml
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it's a valid point that people should take criticism to improve, and i agree, but sometimes i feel like it falls into a "you're not approved by us" mentality.


I'm sorry but it's hilarious to see you say this right after the megawad got featured in two major PC gaming websites because of your social networking, despite by your own admission having little to do with the project. :p

Not to attack you personally, for all I know you could be a fantastic game developer, but generally speaking I think it can't be denied knowing the right people gets you a lot further in the indie scene than hard work. If there ever was a "no outsiders allowed" club in gaming, the press is it.

Old Post 07-31-14 21:32 #
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ella guro
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Phml said:


I'm sorry but it's hilarious to see you say this right after the megawad got featured in two major PC gaming websites because of your social networking, despite by your own admission having little to do with the project. :p

Not to attack you personally, for all I know you could be a fantastic game developer, but generally speaking I think it can't be denied knowing the right people gets you a lot further in the indie scene than hard work. If there ever was a "no outsiders allowed" club in gaming, the press is it.



i would not dispute that knowing the right people gets you further at all. i've spent a lot of time writing about that. for example, this thing on indie gaming entitlement.

i will say that i only got involved in indie game stuff in the past couple years, and i've been following Doomworld and Doom mods on and off for like 15 years.

fyi, though, i'm a queer transwoman so most gaming places feel like "no outsiders allowed" clubs for me. indie games are one of the few i've found people i can connect with. what i'm saying is it's different for everybody. for example, i like the Doom community because of it's geographical diversity (something that can be missing in indie game scenes), but i feel really weird about the total lack of gender diversity.

though if you'd like to speculate on my motivations or credentials, perhaps let's take it outside of this thread.

Old Post 07-31-14 21:47 #
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Da Werecat
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Tarnsman said:
lessened

Well, boo-hoo, I guess.

Old Post 07-31-14 22:00 #
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Tarnsman
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ella guro said:

fyi, though, i'm a queer transwoman so most gaming places feel like "no outsiders allowed" clubs for me. indie games are one of the few i've found people i can connect with. what i'm saying is it's different for everybody. for example, i like the Doom community because of it's geographical diversity (something that can be missing in indie game scenes), but i feel really weird about the total lack of gender diversity.



I'm sorry, what the fuck does this have to do with whether or not D2INO fails at being a good mapset in terms of "creativity and adventure aspects" and whether or not the only reason it's on Kotaku/PC Gamer is because of nepotism and not because of quality. This is some tumblr quality "I'm different so all criticism of me is instantly invalid" shit.

Also here is a short list of more creative/adventurous things that have come out or seen some sort of release in the Doom community during D2INO's development all of which deserve more outside attention than D2INO. Pirate Doom. Going Down. Monster Hunter LTD I and II. Hadephobia (man remember when that was a thing?), any Vela Pax beta, anything Ribbiks has made, Hellbound (far better at creating a place even if I hate the gameplay and layouts and find it boring as crap), and even if you consider BTSX complete garbage BTSX solely for the technical accomplishment of making it work in vanilla.

Old Post 07-31-14 22:03 #
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Da Werecat
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Registered: 11-09


Oh, FFS.

Old Post 07-31-14 22:41 #
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