Doom 2 In Name Only - Now (supsiciously) on a load of gaming articles

lols I wasn't saying map19 is a medium sized map :P
I was saying about maps being absolutely huge like a few are (map15 included tbh)

cannonball said:

lols I wasn't saying map19 is a medium sized map :P
I was saying about maps being absolutely huge like a few are (map15 included tbh)

So far I'd break it down as follows

Small maps
MAP01, MAP02, MAP03, MAP07, MAP21, MAP32

Medium maps
MAP04, MAP05, MAP10, MAP12, MAP14 (I presume, not played it yet), MAP17, MAP18, MAP20, MAP23(?), MAP25(?), MAP26

Hugeass maps
MAP11, MAP13, MAP15, MAP19, MAP22 (if I ever finish it >_<), MAP29 (sorry Antroid :P)

My map is only a few detailed rooms at the moment as I was concentrating on visual appeal and interconnected areas which keep the gameplay flowing. There is still a lot of work to be done. I am aiming for medium size rather than small as I don't want my map to be overlooked like my contribution to the 1994TU project.

Eris Falling said:

MAP29 (sorry Antroid :P)

For what? By the way, I have it open in the editor at this very moment. Trying to slowly trudge through in chocolate doom. Chocorenderlimits to be precise, because the normal one can't handle savegames on this level. :X

I can't open DB2 , because I need the latest version of DirectX.

So if you find things you don't like you can change them (ex.:alignment)

joe-ilya said:

So if you find things you don't like you can change them (ex.:alignment)

That wouldn't be a five-minute job IMHO...

Whoops, still some outstanding quiet maps. I'll let them off since the fault was partly mine for not finishing my PM bumps.


I'm going to have to give up the MAP30 slot, since I've done hardly any work on it, and I'm only going to become busier over the next 2-3 months due to exams, thus I will have no time to work on the map and any time I get to do mapping I would concentrate on getting MAP22 finished.

Anyone interested in finishing MAP30, shoot me a PM. Just make sure it isn't another basic IoS fight - though if you can use him in a clever/orginal way, please do.

Map 10 is in sort of hiatus, due to lack of gameplay nitpicks in B2 + low interest in mapping at the moment. If there's no discord, B3 fix will be probably final.

CorSair - just played your map and explored it in DB2.

I loved the glowing eyes on the marble faces and I'm hoping to learn how to build 3D bridges from reverse-engineering (for want of a better term) your work.

The original Refuelling Base is one of my favourite maps because of the carnage on co-op. Carnage isn't lacking in the tribute areas - however I did at times feel like I was just replaying the original map, and there are too many blank brick walls at the start. Also the map was extremely dark. My screen must have a crap contrast ratio since overly dark areas are a recurring problem for me.

My suggestion would be to add some simple lighting effects to areas that are uniformly dark. Also there are areas where you don't face many monsters, so a few teleport ambushes, pop-up attacks or lowering walls would be excellent - put those narrow corridors to use by turning them into a deathtrap.

Mentioning MAP10's in-name remix automatically urged me to play Plutonia II's MAP10, which is partially homageish to the original DoomII's one.

Played a little bit into "Map25 - Bloodfalls" - plays great and looks interesting architecture wise... not too much not too little... nice blend of geometry.

Map10 - features a visplane overflow.

Eris Falling said:

Anyone interested in finishing MAP30, shoot me a PM. Just make sure it isn't another basic IoS fight - though if you can use him in a clever/orginal way, please do.

I'd be tempted to have a go at doing map 30 if only for the chance to make an IOS that I actually wanted to play. So many megawads I never bothered finishing because of stupid timed platform shenanigans..

mouldy said:

I'd be tempted to have a go at doing map 30 if only for the chance to make an IOS that I actually wanted to play. So many megawads I never bothered finishing because of stupid timed platform shenanigans..

It's yours if you want it, another mouldy map wouldn't go amiss :P

Eris Falling said:

It's yours if you want it, another mouldy map wouldn't go amiss :P

Okay, I'll have a go. Might need a week or so to finish another map for the nova thing first so if anyone else feels a burning desire to take the IOS off my hands give me a shout.

Might be worth noting, though it's been said many times before

The original plan with MAP30 was to have seven sections with one for each of the deadly sins. The marine would fight through six of these sections, with each one ending with the death of some poor Commander Keen hidden away (I placed them in sectors behind the IoS). Once all six were killed, the final sin would be accessible, and that leads to the IoS area.

Trouble is though, while it's very good in theory, actually producing such a map is challenging, due to it being hard to interpret the sins in Doom. If the idea could be done, it would certainly lengthen the map beyond a simple IoS arena and start room.

If you plan to stick with the idea, I can send what ComicMischief - the original author - sent me, including my small modifications. Up to you, though.

I might keep it simple and come up with something myself. I like the idea of having 7 things to do before blasting the ting in the face though. Leave it with me

mouldy said:

I might keep it simple and come up with something myself. I like the idea of having 7 things to do before blasting the ting in the face though. Leave it with me

Good luck! It's quite uplifting to hear that there are still people who don't like to be stuck in a dull scheme or overused cliché.

mouldy said:

I might keep it simple and come up with something myself. I like the idea of having 7 things to do before blasting the ting in the face though. Leave it with me

For the brief five minutes during which I was considering taking map30 way back then, I thought I'd make the "icon of sin" thing purely visual, with no seven sins gimmicks. I'd say that isn't any worse if you end up unable to realize this idea in a satisfying way.

Also, as author of map29 I have to ask: would my death exit be needed for your map? I made it because a previous map30 guy requested it, but actually I'd like to remove it and make it a simple W1 exit. There's no telling what amount of ammo and such the player will carry over then though.

Antroid said:

I'd like to remove it and make it a simple W1 exit.

It is a really cool end to the level, and I think that starting MAP30 from a pistol start isn't a bad idea. You could even have one weapon in the start room, then have the rest of the weapons at the end of each sin , so you have all when you come to the icon.

Think of the IoS as being in the very centre of hell, and the area at the end of MAP29 is like a sacrificial temple, the only entrance to the great Icon.

Those demons (or marines) who have sinned - sticking with the theme - are thrown into the pit at the end of MAP29, and summoned by the IoS to MAP30, where they must face a series of trials, before they finally do battle with him. If they beat the IoS in battle, they are freed and continue life as normal. If not...they are forced to do the bidding of the IoS for the rest of eternity.

That's how the rest of the enemies in MAP30 got there. Nothing has beaten the IoS yet, but can you, the marine, become the first?

Antroid said:

Also, as author of map29 I have to ask: would my death exit be needed for your map? I made it because a previous map30 guy requested it, but actually I'd like to remove it and make it a simple W1 exit. There's no telling what amount of ammo and such the player will carry over then though.

How about you let it how it is, but add a secret exit that doesn't kill?

I don't mean a secret exit in the "go to secret level" sense, just in the sense that it's a normal exit which is hidden in a secret.

Eris Falling said:

It is a really cool end to the level, and I think that starting MAP30 from a pistol start isn't a bad idea. You could even have one weapon in the start room, then have the rest of the weapons at the end of each sin , so you have all when you come to the icon.

Well I mean if the map30 author feels even slightly that it would be beneficial to his map I'll leave it in. It's just that I discovered that I personally don't like this particular trick. I think it has to do with what key I usually subconsciously mash on level exit and how it ends up restarting map29 instead of actually finishing it because I'm dead before I actually exit the level.

Gez said:

How about you let it how it is, but add a secret exit that doesn't kill?

I don't mean a secret exit in the "go to secret level" sense, just in the sense that it's a normal exit which is hidden in a secret.

This is actually a really cool idea, have a secret exit that doesn't take away your weapons, but I don't think I'd be able to incorporate that into my map. The very end of it is very specific and linear and a whole well-hidden secret doesn't fit anywhere in there.

Gez said:

How about you let it how it is, but add a secret exit that doesn't kill?

I don't mean a secret exit in the "go to secret level" sense, just in the sense that it's a normal exit which is hidden in a secret.

Not a bad idea, plutonia map11 does something similar.

Interesting.. I'm not too fussed about the map 29 death exit, I usually design with pistol starting in mind so I can take it or leave it. I'll have a think about what kind of gubbins will go on before facing the boss..

Well if you reach a desicion then post about it. For now I'll keep the death exit.

I hate mandatory death exits, and will generally stop playing any wad that forces me into one.

The only map that should be designed solely for pistol start is map01. For every other map, you should design with both continuous and pistol start players in mind.

Capellan said:

For every other map, you should design with both continuous and pistol start players in mind.

I've lost my weapons mid-level in other games. Personally I like the challenge of surviving the level until I get them back, therefore I don't see the problem here.

I like losing all my arsenal a time or two during a long singleplayer campaign, but I don't quite like when it's completely unexpected, like in GTA:San Andreas. Serious Sam: the Second Encounter did it right: three episodes, three bosses, three fresh starts.
Doing it in doom by way of the death exit I don't really like because it doesn't feel legit (the e1m8 sort of death exit does, but not the "telefrag yourself and Romero" sort). However, I'm leaving this up to whoever finishes map30.

Eris Falling said:
I've lost my weapons mid-level in other games.

And it's stupid and annoying in those games, too.

If players choose to pistol start, awesome. If they don't, that's also awesome. Forcing them to play only one way, and not the other, is lazy design.

Capellan said:

And it's stupid and annoying in those games, too.

But that's your opinion, and I respect that, I certainly won't try and change it. But in the end, it comes down to what the majority of players prefer.

Personally, if I were Antroid, I'd go with Gez's idea and do both a death exit and normal exit. Although Antroid said that it would be hard to put a secret at the ending, I reckon you could probablu do something with this and hide the secret exit in there.

How is it lazy design? It's not like it's possible to make a map play the same way from pistol start and from "full arsenal and 200/200" without sacrificing a lot (ok, unless the player spawns in a room where he gets full arsenal and 200/200 and then teleports to the main playing area). Some fights oriented on weaker weapons or limited health/ammo turn into complete jokes if the player has the BFG and a lot of cells. Some authors don't want to turn their maps into complete jokes and you can't blame them for that. I agree that it's better to give the player a choice rather than to force him to play in a specific way. But calling death exits lazy design is just disrespectful to the mappers.