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Dragonsbrethren
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One thing that bothers me in Gotcha is that the room with the SSG at the start is obviously taller than the area outside of it. Not only does it look strange, it also makes it much harder to ride the lift up and make the jump to the medikits and armor since the "doorway" ceiling is flush with the top of the lift. I really think the original PC ceiling height differences should be restored here, or something close, and raise the blood if needed to stay at/under 256.

Old Post 12-17-13 05:04 #
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Ragnor
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Dont change Gotcha's cyberdemon please, its the only actual required boss fight in all of Doom 2 the way it is now, and with no invulns littered everywhere for once.

I expected a complaint about the much easier access to The Castle, since its likely going to be open the first time you get there.

Old Post 12-17-13 05:23 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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I'll say again: The boss maps need weapon and ammo caches. There's no where near enough to kill that Cyberdemon from a pistol start without fisting it. The Lost Levels team doesn't give into Maes' fetishes! Dis is okay if you solely rely on infighting to kill the Spider, but if you fire at it too, you're probably not going to have enough ammo to kill all the Barons.

(And in case there's doubt, yeah, pistol starts matter in this project. The ZDoom autosaves are left on by default, that kind of simulates being able to restart with your gear using the Password option. If you just respawn in PSX Doom, you start with a pistol - that's the intended behavior, and maps should be doable with it.)

Edit: Actually, I stand corrected. There's just enough ammo to take out the Cyber if you go through the tunnel at the start and don't waste any. I still think that's a bit too tight, some more shells or rockets to give a little margin for error would be nice.

Last edited by Dragonsbrethren on 12-17-13 at 05:42

Old Post 12-17-13 05:36 #
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DeXiaZ
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Do what you want, but don't change/delete Cyberdemon fight.

But I want to say - the life is not a raspberry, especially in Hell.

And don't forget that Gotcha is not first map of Lost Levels. You want to say that before this map you will not find a rocket launcher and BFG?

Old Post 12-17-13 09:46 #
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BaronOfStuff
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DeXiaZ said:
And don't forget that Gotcha is not first map of Lost Levels. You want to say that before this map you will not find a rocket launcher and BFG?


Er...


Dragonsbrethren said:
pistol starts matter in this project.


I'll add some ammo to Dis, most probably in the central chamber.

Old Post 12-17-13 11:56 #
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DeXiaZ
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Damn, I don't understand anything now -_-

Gotcha is map Lost09. Within 8 levels, you will find any powerful weapon.

What about Dis - make it final level of Ultimate Doom levels (Lost06) and you gone away problems with "Boss battles".

But I did my job (orly?), do whatever you want. But for me this kind of problem is not something unsolvable. All even very simple

Old Post 12-17-13 13:48 #
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BaronOfStuff
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Do you even know what pistol-starting is?

Old Post 12-17-13 15:25 #
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DeXiaZ
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I've read now on DOom wiki. And...I still don't get what is problem. IF you die - just load saveslot and get your weapons back. If you cheating for some reason - use idfa (idkfa) cheat too.

Old Post 12-17-13 15:55 #
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Salahmander2
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DeXiaZ said:
I've read now on DOom wiki. And...I still don't get what is problem. IF you die - just load saveslot and get your weapons back. If you cheating for some reason - use idfa (idkfa) cheat too.


You're still missing the point, they need to be tested on pistol starts for balancing purposes.

Old Post 12-17-13 16:01 #
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BaronOfStuff
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DeXiaZ said:
I still don't get what is problem.

Some people prefer to play using pistol-starts, and as such any mandatory fights need to be beatable under these circumstances without having to resort to infights or melee attacks.

Old Post 12-17-13 16:27 #
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DeXiaZ
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You're too careful in attitude to potential players ;) I like it.

Ok, now I understand.

As I can remember - you can escape the fight with Cyberdemon...just look around the lava pit...

Old Post 12-17-13 16:34 #
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buttspit
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You know how in PC Doom games when you die and restart the level, you start with nothing but the pistol and 50 bullets? Well, the original levels were designed so that you can still complete them with this pistol start.

That's what they want to do with the Lost Levels, but many of these maps have not been designed that way and THAT'S the problem. Getting around the Cyberdemon is not the point; there should be enough ammo placed to kill it for pistol starters.

Old Post 12-17-13 17:27 #
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Job
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As others suggested, wouldn't the pistol start issue be alleviated by providing a target(s) for the cyberdemon that's still within the PSX parameters? I think that would make it possible to pistol start without having to do any drastic changes to the ammo balance as it stands.

Old Post 12-17-13 17:35 #
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Salahmander2
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Just done all the suggestions Megamur has suggested on both Industrial Zone and Gotcha. Am almost finished retexturing Baron's Den and it will have a P1 start.

Old Post 12-17-13 20:41 #
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Salahmander2
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http://www.mediafire.com/download/w...sDen-V1%2C1.wad

Baron's Den.

Credits go to Avoozl for the map.

Now with P1 start, got rid of leftover PC textures and changed the height in one area.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/8...vggt/lost08.wad

Industrial Zone.

Credits go to DeXiaZ for the map.

Done Megamur's suggestions.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/d...cgo2/lost09.wad

Gotcha.

Credits go to DeXiaZ for the map.

Same as above. Also followed Dragonsbretheren's suggestions.

Old Post 12-17-13 21:17 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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buttspit said:
That's what they want to do with the Lost Levels, but many of these maps have not been designed that way and THAT'S the problem. Getting around the Cyberdemon is not the point; there should be enough ammo placed to kill it for pistol starters.

Actually, since they're conversions, most of the maps are already pretty balanced. It's just Dis and Gotcha that need a little more ammo, since Dis has extra Barons now to make it a bit more challenging, and Gotcha no longer has the fight between the Cyberdemon and Mastermind. I don't think any of the other maps had such significant balance changes made.

-edit-

Salahmander2, I think you forgot to move the player starts back in Industrial Zone and Gotcha. Also, in Gotcha, you implemented the height change I suggested but the lift is still closed off at the top. If you look at the PC version, there's an opening, so it's easier to ride the lift to the top without hitting the ceiling and you have more room to move when running across to the medikits/armor.

Last edited by Dragonsbrethren on 12-17-13 at 22:11

Old Post 12-17-13 22:05 #
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Salahmander2
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Dragonsbrethren said:

Salahmander2, I think you forgot to move the player starts back in Industrial Zone and Gotcha. Also, in Gotcha, you implemented the height change I suggested but the lift is still closed off at the top. If you look at the PC version, there's an opening, so it's easier to ride the lift to the top without hitting the ceiling and you have more room to move when running across to the medikits/armor.

Ah, got rather distracted upon finishing testing certain parts, that I forgot to get rid of the P1 starts, will have new versions up in about 5-10 minutes. Will take your suggestion on Gotcha.

Old Post 12-17-13 22:40 #
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Salahmander2
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http://www.mediafire.com/download/1...6lbk/lost09.wad

Gotcha, now with the P1 start in the right place, and followed Dragonsbretheren's suggestion.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/h...4rb3/lost08.wad

Industrial Zone, now with the P1 start in the right place.

Old Post 12-17-13 22:50 #
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Megamur
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[psxlost-prebeta2]

LOST10 - The Chasm


-My deepest apologies to Salahmander2 since this was my suggestion in the first place, but after actually seeing it, the green lighting on the BRN10 platforms suspended above the nukage was a bad idea. The lack of contrast makes the platforms hard to see. Probably would be best to change it back to like it was before. So sorry!

-Sectors 7 & 155 should have some red lighting for the berserk packs. Possibly also sector 86 for the red key.

-Sector 126 still doesn't properly raise up to sector 125's floor height.

-Sector 35 needs to have the same dark blue lighting as its adjacent sectors.

-This isn't a criticism, but great fix with the invulnerability sphere! A simple yet very sensible modification of the original map's behavior.

-Again, my apologies since this was my suggestion originally, but do you think sector 11 should have bluish-green lighting, to account for the green torches and the blue slits in the wall textures?

-Sector 162 needs red-colored lighting like sector 10, and sector 163 needs yellow-tinted lighting like sector 57.

-The glowing light in sector 167 (the exit room) looks strange. It glows bright, then darkens a little, then quickly blinks completely black before brightening again.


-----


LOST11 - Spirit World

-Sector 93 could have some red lighting for the berserk pack.

-Sectors 49 & 50 need LAVA1 applied to their floors so the lava texture will animate.

-Since the spiderdemon is gone, there's really no need for all those extra invulnerability spheres. I'd personally get rid of things 179 & 195.

-Sector 20 needs the same-colored lighting as sector 22.

Old Post 12-18-13 03:43 #
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buttspit
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In Black Tower, you know how one of the switches outdoors lowers the walls of the central structure on ground floor in the tower. If I don't hit that switch and went up the floors by mistake (the white teleporter on ground floor), is there a way back down/out? Because when I teleport back to the ground floor, I'm walled in.

Last edited by buttspit on 12-18-13 at 23:39

Old Post 12-18-13 03:46 #
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Ragnor
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I dont get all this nonsense about the pistol starts; in both PC and PSX and even in D64, when you die you restart the level with your default gear. Abusing GZDoom's autosaves is analogous to using the password in PSX to restart with your gear intact Both systems are in place in PSX, so you have to support both of them.

Anyway, ive been distracted by Doom by making the mistake of playing Master of Orion 2, got absorbed in that for a few days. Its all good though, as long as I stay ahead of the Wall of Testing Death (Megamur) im not slacking too much! :p

Old Post 12-18-13 09:18 #
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MajorRawne
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A long time ago I offered to remake one of these levels. I completely forgot about it and I apologise if this delayed the project.

Thanks to Dragonsbrethren I have been able to play the lost level pre-beta. What I've seen so far is excellent. The thumping reverb of the shotgun causing Imps and Demons to roar with pain; the sound of picking up loads of health bonuses at once; that music.

I never really cared for any of the maps that didn't make it across to the PSX, in some cases there may have been more than one reason they failed the cut, but somehow playing through them in this TC makes them enjoyable and exciting in a way I didn't expect.

It's easy to forget how complex the original levels were because they seem deceptively simple. The best maps feel like a real environment where things never play out the same way twice. Goes to show you don't need 200 Revenants to make something challenging.

EDIT: Have now reached The Living End and I think I ran out of shotgun shells on every map so far, sometimes more than once. Was the ammo balance like this on the original maps? It might be something to do with 5,000 Cacodemons on every map :P

EDIT 2: Nothing happens when you kill the Mancs in Caughtyard.

EDIT 3: Some of the map names are wrong. Map lost60 is not the Icon of Sin, for example, while "They Will Repent" appears as "y Will Repent". Many of the maps are just called "R". I haven't played some of these maps, at least not that I can remember, it would be nice to know which ones they are :) Apart from these nits, this is a brilliant project :D

Last edited by MajorRawne on 12-18-13 at 20:39

Old Post 12-18-13 19:40 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Weird on the map names, I never noticed any issues with any of them. It's entirely possible I screwed up the names while shifting things around (forgot to update a lookup token or something), but I don't see why names would be cut off or rendered as just R.

-edit-

LOST60 is Odyssey of Noises here, as intended. I have absolutely no idea what could be causing an issue on your end. Is your copy of GZDoom up-to-date? I've only been testing with the latest official release (1.8.2) and latest dev builds, not older versions.

Last edited by Dragonsbrethren on 12-18-13 at 22:48

Old Post 12-18-13 22:43 #
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Eris Falling
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MajorRawne said:

EDIT 2: Nothing happens when you kill the Mancs in Caughtyard.



This one definitely wasn't me. I distinctly remember writing the MAPINFO lump for it.

Old Post 12-18-13 22:56 #
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Salahmander2
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http://www.mediafire.com/download/i...rb6d/lost10.wad

Chasm.

Done Megamur's suggestions.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/2...gfac/lost11.wad

Spirit World.

Same as above.

Old Post 12-18-13 23:09 #
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Dragonsbrethren
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Eris Falling said:


This one definitely wasn't me. I distinctly remember writing the MAPINFO lump for it.


I bet I missed it when copying info from the mapinfo lumps. (I think every other encounter like that was actually scripted into the map, so I didn't even give it a second thought.)

Once Doom 2 is finished, I guess I'll put up a new pre-beta, so this (and any other game breaking stuff) isn't an issue for testing Final.

Old Post 12-18-13 23:35 #
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buttspit
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Alright, since Dexiaz converted Black Tower, the question is particularly aimed at him.

In case PM's don't work out, here was my question:

In Black Tower, you know how one of the switches outdoors lowers the walls of the central structure on ground floor in the tower. If I don't hit that switch and went up the floors by mistake (the white teleporter on ground floor), is there a way back down/out? Because when I teleport back to the ground floor, I'm walled in.

Old Post 12-18-13 23:38 #
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DeXiaZ
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I think there is no way to get back. Anyway, it's possible to fix that. I beg anyone wishing to fix this. Thanks in advance

Old Post 12-19-13 01:29 #
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buttspit
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EDIT: OK, so the teleporter isn't present like that in the original version. Well, at least in the meantime, I know that I'm not missing a switch or something.

But while we're on the subject, there's a skull switch on the third floor IIRC that's non-functional. I'll try to take a shot of it to show later.

Last edited by buttspit on 12-19-13 at 02:56

Old Post 12-19-13 02:48 #
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MajorRawne
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Ah bollocks, I didn't realise GZDoom has been updated, seems like only yesterday I downloaded a new version. Let me try it and get back to you about the level names and the Caughtyard "glitch".

Is there any way to put the maps in some kind of order? By extension, could you release a PSX version of Plutonia Experiment and Evilution without us having to do a lot of map-skipping?

As for the maps, I've found myself enjoying a number of levels that I didn't rate when I first saw them on the PC. It is remarkable how much difference better music, better sound effects and coloured lighting can make. In particular, The Living End, Betray and Against Thee Wickedly really stood out.

There are plenty of others which I haven't beaten yet such as Titan Manor, which is visually one of the nicer-looking maps; Odyssey of Noises, which suits the grittier visual style of PSX Doom; plus a few others whose names I don't know.

I felt sorry for whoever had to convert Betray - I laughed hard when I saw the PC version - but an extremely well-chosen PSX track and green lighting gave it a distinctive feel and I enjoyed playing it, despite the pointless switch hunt element. I don't recognise one of the splattered bodies on the green marble columns (the only one that doesn't come down) from the PSX, though.

This project has breathed totally new life into maps that I'm guessing a lot of us wouldn't bother playing any more.

EDIT: Am playing through Anti-Christ. A Hell Knight just went after a Baron! After he'd hit the Baron with three ranged attacks, the Baron turned round, threw a plasma ball at the Knight and killed it! How did they hurt each other with ranged attacks?

Last edited by MajorRawne on 12-19-13 at 17:56

Old Post 12-19-13 17:32 #
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